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Student H&P's

 

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popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 13, 2012, 6:10 PM
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Student H&P's Can't Post

From the incidents forum:

Hop and pop accident in San Marcos, TX
.....His exit was unstable, reached and threw out his pilot chute which ended up on his back as he was rolling to his left. Level 14 coach jump. His leg went thru his lines causing the horseshoe mal function.

..... I believe that the amount of fabric from the two student canopys slowed him down just enough to have a chance of surviving.



So...what is the problem here?

The problem is instructors sending young jumpers out to do H&Ps without having first taught them, and made them practice, stable exits from altitude.

Yes, yes...you can use the old "anything can happen at anytime excuse" if you like. Use whatever excuse you like just get off your dead ass an teach them stable exits from altitude right from the get go...always BEFORE you send them out on the H&P.

You teach them the easiest to accomplish and make sure they can do it BEFORE the H&P.

How many of you doing AFF send them out on jump 8 or 9 or 10 or anywhere near that early? Ask yourself, "Why?"


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Aug 13, 2012, 6:57 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
From the incidents forum:

Hop and pop accident in San Marcos, TX
.....His exit was unstable, reached and threw out his pilot chute which ended up on his back as he was rolling to his left. Level 14 coach jump. His leg went thru his lines causing the horseshoe mal function.

..... I believe that the amount of fabric from the two student canopys slowed him down just enough to have a chance of surviving.



So...what is the problem here?

The problem is instructors sending young jumpers out to do H&Ps without having first taught them, and made them practice, stable exits from altitude.

Yes, yes...you can use the old "anything can happen at anytime excuse" if you like. Use whatever excuse you like just get off your dead ass an teach them stable exits from altitude right from the get go...always BEFORE you send them out on the H&P.

You teach them the easiest to accomplish and make sure they can do it BEFORE the H&P.

How many of you doing AFF send them out on jump 8 or 9 or 10 or anywhere near that early? Ask yourself, "Why?"

Interesting point. What would hurt to have students make a few "hop n pop" style exits and p/c touches at full altitude during progression jumps?

Excuse my ignorance on the issue, as I haven't held a rating for a decade.


stratostar  (Student)

Aug 13, 2012, 7:02 PM
Post #3 of 58 (2877 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

Welcome to the mainstreaming of the sport where SL is no longer a "modern" form progression... LOL

Used to be a few reasons we made you crawl before your tried to run a marathon.Laugh


DougH  (D License)

Aug 13, 2012, 7:30 PM
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Re: [stratostar] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

Hybrid student progression with an IAD jump or two might help.


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Aug 13, 2012, 8:07 PM
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Re: [chuckakers] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
From the incidents forum:

Hop and pop accident in San Marcos, TX
.....His exit was unstable, reached and threw out his pilot chute which ended up on his back as he was rolling to his left. Level 14 coach jump. His leg went thru his lines causing the horseshoe mal function.

..... I believe that the amount of fabric from the two student canopys slowed him down just enough to have a chance of surviving.



So...what is the problem here?

The problem is instructors sending young jumpers out to do H&Ps without having first taught them, and made them practice, stable exits from altitude.

Yes, yes...you can use the old "anything can happen at anytime excuse" if you like. Use whatever excuse you like just get off your dead ass an teach them stable exits from altitude right from the get go...always BEFORE you send them out on the H&P.

You teach them the easiest to accomplish and make sure they can do it BEFORE the H&P.

How many of you doing AFF send them out on jump 8 or 9 or 10 or anywhere near that early? Ask yourself, "Why?"

Interesting point. What would hurt to have students make a few "hop n pop" style exits and p/c touches at full altitude during progression jumps?

Excuse my ignorance on the issue, as I haven't held a rating for a decade.

depends where they do their aff at. At SDC they have students exit stable, then later in the course they exit poised front float facing the tail intentionally causing the unstable exit. The HP there are done from 5 then 3.5. On both of those its emphasized that you get stable first before pulling (obviously we caveat that you need to be alti aware). But the main thing is they drill the students on the ground a lot.

Where I am now... They use antique techniques from 15-20 years ago, that often cause more problems then they "fix"


airtwardo  (D License)

Aug 13, 2012, 10:37 PM
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Re: [jtiflyer] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

Where I am now... They use antique techniques from 15-20 years ago, that often cause more problems then they "fix"

In reply to:

I'm curious, where are you now and what do they do?


nigel99  (D 1)

Aug 14, 2012, 1:44 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

Andy, What is a level 14 coach jump? Is that one of the 2 hop and pops required for an A?

Here is Oz - hop and pops are required as the final two jumps for AFF - 5500 followed by 3500 I believe. I don't know what the dropzone involved does, but here hop and pops are from a 182 and a strut hang exit. The strut hang seems to work well, compared to trying to exit stable off the step of a 182 (I watched someone with 40 jumps take in excess of 10 seconds to get stable, from the step).


excaza  (C License)

Aug 14, 2012, 5:08 AM
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Re: [nigel99] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Andy, What is a level 14 coach jump? Is that one of the 2 hop and pops required for an A?
After AFF there aren't really any set progressions, it's just working through the remainder of the categories on the A card. I'm not really sure how you can do a hop and pop on a coach jump though.

As for practicing stable exits at altitude, shouldn't the poised exits prepare a student fairly well for exit body position? When I was going through my AFF levels, only two of my exits weren't poised, and I made sure to do a couple more poised exits before I did my hop & pops just to make sure I had it. It didn't prepare me to count at a regular speed though, apparently you count really fast when nervous Tongue


(This post was edited by excaza on Aug 14, 2012, 5:09 AM)


DougH  (D License)

Aug 14, 2012, 5:48 AM
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Re: [nigel99] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
(I watched someone with 40 jumps take in excess of 10 seconds to get stable, from the step).

That right there is a indication of a problem!


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Aug 14, 2012, 6:14 AM
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Re: [excaza] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
As for practicing stable exits at altitude, shouldn't the poised exits prepare a student fairly well for exit body position?

I think having students perform a practice pull in the first few seconds after exit would give them a lot more confidence when it comes time to do it for real at lower altitudes.

A student can perform a hop n pop style exit and perform a practice touch, and still go on with FS work.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 14, 2012, 7:17 AM
Post #11 of 58 (2684 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think having students perform a practice pull in the first few seconds after exit would give them a lot more confidence when it comes time to do it for real at lower altitudes.

A student can perform a hop n pop style exit and perform a practice touch, and still go on with FS work.

I'm liking this. After graduation, we have them do a few solos to get more comfy, then they go work on the card. You're comment would provide essentially free practice really for the H&P during any/some of those jumps. (Arch, relax, reach, touch - no counting, no pressure, just practice the real thing)

I'd certainly like to see more consistent success on H&Ps and I'll suggest this as something to add to our normal procedures. I shamed I didn't think of it myself, I started SL years ago and it's an obvious carryover that we could have retained into AFF.

(I think the main argument would be something like - 'what? add something else to their overloaded brains? what the hell are you thinking? but maybe not)

FWIW - I don't like counting seconds for an H&P (side note), I teach a calm clear 'then' pull as above.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Aug 14, 2012, 7:18 AM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 14, 2012, 7:47 AM
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Re: [airtwardo] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Where I am now... They use antique techniques from 15-20 years ago, that often cause more problems then they "fix"

In reply to:

I'm curious, where are you now and what do they do?

I'm curious as well. Its gonna come as a real shock to realise I've been doing it all wrong for nearly 40 years.....

The new generation are just full of surprises to go with their mad skillz......


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 14, 2012, 8:58 AM
Post #13 of 58 (2627 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Where I am now... They use antique techniques from 15-20 years ago, that often cause more problems then they "fix"

In reply to:

I'm curious, where are you now and what do they do?

I'm curious as well. Its gonna come as a real shock to realise I've been doing it all wrong for nearly 40 years.....

The new generation are just full of surprises to go with their mad skillz......

Techniques do evolve and ... SHOCK HORROR... even improve in some cases.

It might pay to keep your mind open to new techniques and methods instead of dismissing them as "mad skillz" before understanding what they are.


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Aug 14, 2012, 1:58 PM
Post #14 of 58 (2558 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Where I am now... They use antique techniques from 15-20 years ago, that often cause more problems then they "fix"

In reply to:

I'm curious, where are you now and what do they do?

I'm curious as well. Its gonna come as a real shock to realise I've been doing it all wrong for nearly 40 years.....

The new generation are just full of surprises to go with their mad skillz......

Techniques do evolve and ... SHOCK HORROR... even improve in some cases.

It might pay to keep your mind open to new techniques and methods instead of dismissing them as "mad skillz" before understanding what they are.

+1

If techniques didn't progress how are the top 4 way teams able to average 25+?

I am not claiming that all the information given to students from 15+ years ago is bad or irrelevant. I am saying that with the advent of tunnels and coaching from world class teams there are techniques and training methods that make it easier for students.

Will I get into specifics, no. Why? I don't want to get into a pissing contest with who knows what or who teaches better than who.


hillson  (D 33134)

Aug 14, 2012, 3:08 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

Do they have to be poised? Both of my student h&p were diving exits. Granted I usually do a clear and pull at least once a day per weekend so poised exits are no big deal...but I was allowed to choose...?

ETA: I also did a few poised H&P on solo status before my "official" ones so maybe that's it...


(This post was edited by hillson on Aug 14, 2012, 3:11 PM)


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 14, 2012, 4:47 PM
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Re: [hillson] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

I would think that, as the intent of the mandatory HnPs is to practice for aircraft emergencies, that non-poised "get the fuck out"-style exits are a better preparation for emergencies. But they are harder to get stable from and pull within 5 seconds (is that the pass criteria for A-licence HnPs?)


excaza  (C License)

Aug 14, 2012, 5:36 PM
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Re: [DocPop] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But they are harder to get stable from and pull within 5 seconds (is that the pass criteria for A-licence HnPs?)
Roughly. I was told to count to 5 for my 5.5k (3s for my 3.5k) and then pull, so +/- a couple seconds and you still pass as long as you were stable.


(This post was edited by excaza on Aug 14, 2012, 5:37 PM)


dthames  (B 37674)

Aug 14, 2012, 7:34 PM
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Re: [excaza] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

Those early tethered and free fall SL jumps really taught me basic exit stability.


Monko760  (Student)

Aug 14, 2012, 8:38 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

As a student with 13 jumps I have to agree that more should be done to prepare students in AFF for the coming HnP required for the A. In my 5 solos my main goal was a stable exit, then flailing around with my mad skillz perfecting freefly. =)


stratostar  (Student)

Aug 14, 2012, 9:42 PM
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Re: [Monko760] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I have to agree that more should be done to prepare students in AFF for the coming HnP required for the A

By the time you get to a h&P in AFF progression, you should have already done a number of solo exits with stability, the only difference is the exit altitude at that point, it's more mental then anything, unless you've been getting training from one of the fuck heads who just pass people to pass them and give shitty instruction while doing it.

If you can't do it by that point in the progression, then you should not have been passed to the other levels, period!


hillson  (D 33134)

Aug 15, 2012, 5:15 AM
Post #21 of 58 (2374 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks...figured as such. Been a while since I thought about the TLOs for the student H&Ps.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 15, 2012, 8:20 AM
Post #22 of 58 (2340 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Where I am now... They use antique techniques from 15-20 years ago, that often cause more problems then they "fix"

In reply to:

I'm curious, where are you now and what do they do?

I'm curious as well. Its gonna come as a real shock to realise I've been doing it all wrong for nearly 40 years.....

The new generation are just full of surprises to go with their mad skillz......

Techniques do evolve and ... SHOCK HORROR... even improve in some cases.

It might pay to keep your mind open to new techniques and methods instead of dismissing them as "mad skillz" before understanding what they are.

We are talking a SPECIFIC technique here...namely how to exit the aircraft in a stable position.

Now please elaborate, in some detail how the technique of exiting in a stable position has evolved in the last few years, in a way that I have no knowledge of.

My mind is open and receptive to new ideas.

Its not like I haven't seen, experienced and adopted new techniques and ideas in the last 38 years I've been involved in skydiving.

Now tell me how this new fangled exit technique works!.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 15, 2012, 8:24 AM
Post #23 of 58 (2336 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
. But they are harder to get stable from and pull within 5 seconds

Nonsense.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 15, 2012, 9:00 AM
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Re: [obelixtim] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
. But they are harder to get stable from and pull within 5 seconds

Nonsense.

You're saying that a diving exit will have a pre-A-licence jumper in a position to pull in the same amount of time as a poised exit?

I'll see your "nonsense" and raise you a "poppycock"!


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 15, 2012, 9:04 AM
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Re: [obelixtim] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We are talking a SPECIFIC technique here...namely how to exit the aircraft in a stable position.

Now please elaborate, in some detail how the technique of exiting in a stable position has evolved in the last few years, in a way that I have no knowledge of.

My mind is open and receptive to new ideas.

Its not like I haven't seen, experienced and adopted new techniques and ideas in the last 38 years I've been involved in skydiving.

Now tell me how this new fangled exit technique works!.

To clarify, it was not me that suggested a new technique.

If your post above is true, maybe I got the wrong end of the stick from your use of the phrase "mad skillz" in the previous one.

I hate that phrase anyway. Skydivers overuse it in the same way that whuffos use "perfectly good airplane" - like they just invented a funny.


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