Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Falcon as a reserve??

 

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tsalnukt

Aug 11, 2012, 7:32 AM
Post #1 of 27 (1428 views)
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Falcon as a reserve?? Can't Post

I just got a rig to repack and the reserve is a Falcon 215. I have never heard of a falcon as a reserve and I was just wondering if anyone has ever packed a falcon as a reserve and if it is ok or not. Thanks.

PS - i would have called precision but today is saturday and they aren't open.


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Aug 11, 2012, 7:40 AM
Post #2 of 27 (1421 views)
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Re: [tsalnukt] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
http://www.precision.aero/falcon-9.htm

Doesn't the canopy label have the TSO info on it?


tsalnukt

Aug 11, 2012, 7:49 AM
Post #3 of 27 (1417 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes it does. I just wanted to double double check before I packed it. thanks


PeteS  (D 8230)

Aug 11, 2012, 8:36 AM
Post #4 of 27 (1397 views)
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Re: [tsalnukt] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen a couple of them. As long as it was not ever used as a main, it's okay.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 11, 2012, 10:31 AM
Post #5 of 27 (1371 views)
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Re: [tsalnukt] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Fslcons were originally certified as reserve, back during the earl 1980s.
As long as that Falcon canopy has only a few jumps, it is perfectly legal to re-pack as a reserve.
Just remind the owner not to exceed wing-loadings of one pound per square foot.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Aug 14, 2012, 8:37 AM
Post #6 of 27 (1220 views)
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Re: [tsalnukt] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Geeze, I hope so... All 3 of my reserve rides were on Falcon's. Tongue Cool

TSO lable intact?
Few/no jumps?
Airworthy by inspection?
AD/SB check (don't know of any, but you should check)

Blue Skies,
JW


hackish  (No License)

Aug 14, 2012, 5:02 PM
Post #7 of 27 (1165 views)
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Re: Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I too have packed a couple of Falcons a few times. It seems that these oddball canopies crop up in bunches. If I had to guess years ago one jumper bought one and convinced a number of others at the DZ to do the same. Sometimes I do wish older gear would be retired.

-Michael


RiggerLee

Aug 14, 2012, 5:52 PM
Post #8 of 27 (1159 views)
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Re: [hackish] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've never acually seen one packed as a reserve but what's wrong with it? It's just a bit bulkier but older gear is often sized more appropreitly any way. If it's in good condition I see nothing wrong with "older gear". We jumped the hell out of it in it's day and it's perfectly good for what it is.

Lee


5.samadhi

Aug 14, 2012, 9:23 PM
Post #9 of 27 (1126 views)
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Re: [RiggerLee] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

why jump older gear when you can get a new reserve for a little over 1 grand

and a used reserve for 500


stratostar  (Student)

Aug 14, 2012, 9:35 PM
Post #10 of 27 (1123 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Because the shit still works just fine that is why! Why go spend a grand on a new reserve when I have a new one, only it's 15 yrs old and a few other that are anywhere from 25 to 40 yrs old.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 15, 2012, 10:37 AM
Post #11 of 27 (1080 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Because the shit still works just fine that is why! Why go spend a grand on a new reserve when I have a new one, only it's 15 yrs old and a few other that are anywhere from 25 to 40 yrs old.

.........................................................................

Old (lightly-used) gear works great with older jumpers and older riggers, because they understand the limitations (e.g.don't load more than 1:1) and know how to fly it.

The danger crops up when young skydivers try to load old reserves at 2:1 and wonder why they break so many bones.
DOUGH!


5.samadhi

Aug 15, 2012, 11:07 AM
Post #12 of 27 (1076 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Because the shit still works just fine that is why! Why go spend a grand on a new reserve when I have a new one, only it's 15 yrs old and a few other that are anywhere from 25 to 40 yrs old.

.........................................................................

Old (lightly-used) gear works great with older jumpers and older riggers, because they understand the limitations (e.g.don't load more than 1:1) and know how to fly it.

The danger crops up when young skydivers try to load old reserves at 2:1 and wonder why they break so many bones.
DOUGH!
so you're saying a falcon reserve is just as good as a PD optimum reserve? I think the latter is stronger and flares better and flies better but what do I know I started skydiving in the 2000s Laugh


stratostar  (Student)

Aug 15, 2012, 11:33 AM
Post #13 of 27 (1064 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

You can think what you want, I bet Red @ FCI would disagree with you on many levels to your statements and have the data to back it up, maybe you should call him up and ask him. But what does he know he has only been building, testing and designing parachutes now for like 30 yrs or so now.

Would you say my 1993 PD 176-r is not as good as 2012 176PDR? I say bullshit!


(This post was edited by stratostar on Aug 15, 2012, 12:31 PM)


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Aug 15, 2012, 12:20 PM
Post #14 of 27 (1054 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Because the shit still works just fine that is why! Why go spend a grand on a new reserve when I have a new one, only it's 15 yrs old and a few other that are anywhere from 25 to 40 yrs old.

.........................................................................

Old (lightly-used) gear works great with older jumpers and older riggers, because they understand the limitations (e.g.don't load more than 1:1) and know how to fly it.

The danger crops up when young skydivers try to load old reserves at 2:1 and wonder why they break so many bones.
DOUGH!
so you're saying a falcon reserve is just as good as a PD optimum reserve?

For all practical purposes provided that you have a light wing loading, don't do anything likely to cause an over-speed deployment (no freefly, no Cypres which might fire if you get knocked out and then fall head down), and don't care about container size.

In reply to:
I think the latter is stronger and flares better and flies better but what do I know I started skydiving in the 2000s Laugh

That's nice but doesn't necessarily mean it does a better job saving your life.

My Super Raven II (prehistoric by new jumper standards) and Tempo (not reinforced) both worked well enough when I needed them.

That said if you're going to freefly or have an AAD you want a modern reserve with span-wise reinforcing tapes. I watched a guy spiral in under a reserve with one reinforcing tape at the tail connecting 2 and 5 cell chunks after he got knocked out on an AFF jump, was last seen falling head-first at a high rate of speed, and was saved by a Cypres fire falling at faster than belly speeds.

If not the old designs are fine. I don't think anything of the Raven in my accuracy rig - if needed it'll get me to a safe landing just like an Optimum. Unlike the Optimum it's paid for and came in a $700 package deal with the container as opposed to costing $1000+ alone. That makes it _much_ better than the newer reserve.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Aug 15, 2012, 12:28 PM)


RiggerLee

Aug 15, 2012, 12:54 PM
Post #15 of 27 (1033 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Actually falcons were good flying canopies. People today tend to talk a little trash about the older f-111 canopies but there really wasn't any thing wrong with the later designs, falcons and PD's among them. Keep in mind that a PD reserve is from the exact same era and no body talks shit about them. Falcons if any thing have an advantage over a PD or optimum in that they are nine cells and have a higher aspect ratio. The bigest limitation on wing loading is the increase in porosity over time. We tended to jump them large because at 600 jumps on the canopy you didn't really want to be jumping it at over 1:1. F-111, call it 0-3 if you like, is very tight when it's new and flyes quite well.

Don't get me wrong. I don't want to say that there hasn't been evelution over the years but I don't understand the fear that some people have of older gear.

as to wing loading. I don't think you need to be loading an optimum at 2:1. I'm a vocal proponent of people jumping bigger reserves to beguin with. And lets not forget the basic idea behind the optimum. That you could put a larger reserve in your existing container. The very concept was to allow you to jump a LOWER wing loading then you were curently jumping which frankly I thought was great.

Lee


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 15, 2012, 2:34 PM
Post #16 of 27 (1009 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
so you're saying a falcon reserve is just as good as a PD optimum reserve? I think the latter is stronger and flares better and flies better but what do I know I started skydiving in the 2000s

How many jumps do you have on any kind of reserve? I would say you are just parroting what you have heard and dont shit about which reserve canopies fly better or land better. If you are going to make claims have something to back it up.

Sparky


diablopilot  (D License)

Aug 15, 2012, 8:13 PM
Post #17 of 27 (980 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

+1


5.samadhi

Aug 15, 2012, 8:52 PM
Post #18 of 27 (972 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

1 jump on a microraven 120

a few jumps on an older PD

and a few jumps on an optimum

but hey lets let your personal attack flyyyyyyy feels good man Laugh

edit oh yeah and about 25 jumps on a falcon (as a main!)

edit also I have experience on other 7 cells Atair Troll MDV 205 and Basic Research Fox Vtec 225 and also triathalon 135 so I have a pretty good bearing on how a good 7 cell should fly/control itself in brakes, etc.

but what do I know Unsure


(This post was edited by 5.samadhi on Aug 15, 2012, 9:08 PM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 15, 2012, 10:11 PM
Post #19 of 27 (956 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1 jump on a microraven 120

a few jumps on an older PD

and a few jumps on an optimum


but hey lets let your personal attack flyyyyyyy feels good man Laugh

edit oh yeah and about 25 jumps on a falcon (as a main!)

edit also I have experience on other 7 cells Atair Troll MDV 205 and Basic Research Fox Vtec 225 and also triathalon 135 so I have a pretty good bearing on how a good 7 cell should fly/control itself in brakes, etc.

but what do I know Unsure

Seems like quite a few reserve rides for 300 jumps.

If you felt that was a PA you need to toughen up cupcake. From your choice of canopies all I can say is good luck.

Sparky


5.samadhi

Aug 16, 2012, 7:13 AM
Post #20 of 27 (931 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
1 jump on a microraven 120

a few jumps on an older PD

and a few jumps on an optimum


but hey lets let your personal attack flyyyyyyy feels good man Laugh

edit oh yeah and about 25 jumps on a falcon (as a main!)

edit also I have experience on other 7 cells Atair Troll MDV 205 and Basic Research Fox Vtec 225 and also triathalon 135 so I have a pretty good bearing on how a good 7 cell should fly/control itself in brakes, etc.

but what do I know Unsure

Seems like quite a few reserve rides for 300 jumps.

If you felt that was a PA you need to toughen up cupcake. From your choice of canopies all I can say is good luck.

Sparky
you know you can fly reserves as mains right Smile

I only have one reserve ride (the microraven).

what about my choice of canopies? I fly a troll loaded at .75 and a stiletto loaded at 1.15

radical!!!Crazy


-ftp-

Aug 16, 2012, 8:22 AM
Post #21 of 27 (917 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Seems like quite a few reserve rides for 300 jumps.

If you felt that was a PA you need to toughen up cupcake. From your choice of canopies all I can say is good luck.

Sparky

Do you know you can demo reserves now-a-days? yeah, in fact sometimes the manufactures come to your DZ and set up a tent an everything. You can try your reserve before you buy it, pretty cool.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 16, 2012, 10:37 AM
Post #22 of 27 (885 views)
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Re: [-ftp-] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Seems like quite a few reserve rides for 300 jumps.

If you felt that was a PA you need to toughen up cupcake. From your choice of canopies all I can say is good luck.

Sparky

Do you know you can demo reserves now-a-days? yeah, in fact sometimes the manufactures come to your DZ and set up a tent an everything. You can try your reserve before you buy it, pretty cool.

Yea I know that but if you notice he didn't say he demoed anydthing.

Sparky


stratostar  (Student)

Aug 16, 2012, 12:20 PM
Post #23 of 27 (866 views)
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Re: [-ftp-] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

And the two you know your talking to one of the people who has done a lot test jumping a great deal of the stuff and has conducted many drop tests, right.


-ftp-

Aug 16, 2012, 12:37 PM
Post #24 of 27 (861 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And the two you know your talking to one of the people who has done a lot test jumping a great deal of the stuff and has conducted many drop tests, right.

Didn't know that, pretty cool.

But what does that have to do with it?


padalcek  (D 23938)

Aug 16, 2012, 6:46 PM
Post #25 of 27 (836 views)
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Re: [RiggerLee] Falcon as a reserve?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
And lets not forget the basic idea behind the optimum. That you could put a larger reserve in your existing container. The very concept was to allow you to jump a LOWER wing loading then you were curently jumping which frankly I thought was great.

But, to no ones surprise really, it ended up as "hey, I can get same canopies in an even smaller container now".


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