Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Photography and Video:
Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120

 

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Poll: Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120
Are you fucking kidding me? 47 / 37%
Sure if they will pay it charge it! 39 / 31%
Boobies 41 / 32%
127 total votes
 
Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Aug 7, 2012, 5:22 PM
Post #1 of 46 (8969 views)
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Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 Can't Post

I have run across a few DZ's that use 2 go-pros for both the video and stills on tandem jumps. I understand the use of a go-pro on a wrist mount but this setup should not be charging this much!


sdls  (D License)

Aug 8, 2012, 12:00 AM
Post #2 of 46 (8790 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't understand, what is the problem with that?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 8, 2012, 4:40 AM
Post #3 of 46 (8737 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

 
What sort of stills can you pull off a Go Pro? Anything you can use for an 8x10?

Ok, on the one hand, the price doesn't really reflect the investment/effort. Given that a traditional outside video package generally runs about $100, and involves an additional slot, two cameras more expensive than a GoPro and a helmet, charging $120 for a product that requires none of that is clearly a money-grab on the part of the DZ.

On the other hand, if the customers are willing to pay, it's a free country and DZs can charge whatever they want for their products/services. Seeing as the majority of tandem passengers are one-time customers, the idea of maximizing the return on each customer is valid.

Think about most succesful retail businesses you patronize, they make no bones about tyring to upsell you during your transaction. Fast food wants you to upsize, and cell phone stores are always trying to bundle a case/charger/etc, and it's all in an effort to pad the bill.

To summarize - it's a bold move and quite a return on the investment/effort, but at the same time a DZ, in terms of things like tandems and video/stills, is a business, and if they can get that type of return per customer, that's good business.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Aug 8, 2012, 4:52 AM
Post #4 of 46 (8731 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

hmmmm accurate words.......

i can recall when this was a Sport.. A Hobby , a diversion from regular life...Unimpressed

now it sure HAS become "a business"


is That Good????
is that Not good?...i dunno.....Unsure

as for 2 go pros....?

i guess you'd call it 'streamlining' and true, people WILL settle for less than is available in terms of quality,,, never KNOWing that they are settling, and happily PAY for what they get.....

To the OP are you talking about 2 go pros on an outside video person..?? or HAnd mounted????

jmy
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R I P Bill Newell


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 8, 2012, 5:19 AM
Post #5 of 46 (8717 views)
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Re: [jimmytavino] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
i can recall when this was a Sport.. A Hobby , a diversion from regular life...

now it sure HAS become "a business"

That's why I was sure to state that 'as far as tandems and video/stills goes', a DZ is a business. While it is nice to share the experience of skydiving with others, and it can be used as an entry-way to traditional training and 'making' new jumpers, it's no secret that tandems are a money maker for the DZ.

Now if this type of practice was in place with regards to fun jumpers, like if a DZ was gouging them with crazy jump prices or business policies just because they could, in that case I would have more of a problem with it based on the 'moral' grounds of skydiving (among experienced jumpers) being more than just a business.

Of course, I'm not sure that situation could exist based on the education of the consumer. In that case, the experienced jumpers would know they're getting fleeced because they would know about 'normal' jump prices or DZ business practices. One of the reasons a DZ could charge $120 for a dual GoPro handycam is becasue (as you mentioned) the customer has no idea what the 'standard' is, and they come to accpet whatever the DZ offers as being the standard.

Case in point, all those people who pay a 'big plane' fee, or 'extra altitude' fee just to get to 13k at Skyride DZs, as far as they're concerned, it was money well spent to enchance their experience, all the while not knowing that the DZ down the street takes every tandem to 13k in an Otter all day long.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Aug 8, 2012, 5:39 AM
Post #6 of 46 (8706 views)
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Re: [jimmytavino] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To the OP are you talking about 2 go pros on an outside video person..?? or HAnd mounted????

This is for outside video.


bodypilot90  (D 24249)

Aug 8, 2012, 6:20 AM
Post #7 of 46 (8695 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

 A gopro photo was on the cover of parachutist a few months ago, I didn't hear anyone complain


LaRusic  (B License)

Aug 8, 2012, 11:28 AM
Post #8 of 46 (8623 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

Just playing devils advocate a bit here, but lets have a look at it from the POV of the camera flyer.

Is he/she getting paid anymore money for using high end cameras as opposed to go-pros? What incentive is there for the camera flyer to pay a ton of money for a super high end setup when they are getting the exact same as someone flying go-pros.
It is the DZ that profits, not the camera flyer. Maybe if the DZ would supply the camera flying gear that would be a different story.....


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 8, 2012, 12:04 PM
Post #9 of 46 (8614 views)
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Re: [LaRusic] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Is he/she getting paid anymore money for using high end cameras as opposed to go-pros?

What's a GoPro cost these days? $200 each? $250?

What I do know is that I paid $200 for a used CX100 off ebay, and maybe $500 for a new Rebel kit a few years back. I don't know what they go for new these days, but again you could pick up a used Rebel with a lens for about $300 off Craigslist or ebay.

The end result for either set up is about $500 worth or cameras. A reasonably busy camera flyer can make that in two weekends at the DZ. Money-wise, it's a wash in terms of dollars, and a blip on the radar in terms of potential income from the cameras.

Now let's look at functionality. GoPros have shit audio, fixed super-wide lenses, zero adjustability, and no control over when stills are taken. Just from my personal experience, I needed all of those features last weekend shooting tandem videos.

When the sun was in the windshield and I was shooting forward in the cabin, it took two seconds to bring up the manual exposure on my CX, and get a good shot despite the backlight. Likewise, I was able to use the zoom to get a tight shot in the plane, and then to get tight shots of the canopy in flight before landing. If the TI comes up short or has to divert for traffic, I can still zoom in and get a tight shot of the landing.

As far as the stills goes, just letting the camera run is a cop-out. Learn to compose a take pictures. Beyond that, how about exposure compensation or ISO adjustment for overcast days? How about using zoom and flash in the plane to get some nice pics there?

I remember the days of film cameras when you had a limited number of exposures. We would have loved to take pics in the plane of the passengers and their friends, but it wasn't going to happen. Now we have virtually unlimited exposures, but people are using cameras with no zoom or flash, so what do you come up with? Shit pictures, that's what.

This thread took a turn when it was revealed this was for outside video. It actually took two turns.

The first turn was in favor of the DZ. $120 for a package if you have to pay for a camera flyer and a slot isn't really that far out of the 'norm'.

The other turn was for the worse. The laziness and apathy of an outside camera flyer who can't be troubled to do any better than a pair of Gopros is hard to understand. For a handcam deal, two Gopros is a pretty good set-up, and the best you can expect from a TI, but for outside video, with tapeless video and digital stills, it's downright lazy and pathetic.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Aug 8, 2012, 12:05 PM
Post #10 of 46 (8612 views)
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Re: [LaRusic] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course you're right, in that the camera flyer isn't being paid any more or less than the other guy who has good quality, perhaps even professional gear.

The days of pride in work and wanting to deliver the best product because they are a "photographer" are waning, for better or for worse. Paper delivery is becoming more and more rare, while digital delivery is far more common (facebook, etc).

The GoPro and similar cameras produce very nice stills for the web, and the video is certainly quite good enough for broadcast, especially with some of the aftermarket lenses. We just shot a fun commercial that is a mix of RED, GoPro2, and a little 5D footage. Hard to tell what is what due to the quality and post processing.

Some still like to deliver a better image, and that's really where the line is drawn; quality of image and composition, and that's something that small format cameras will struggle with delivering for a while.

I'm still not a fan of hand-cam, and the render times of AVC vs AVCHD are still annoying, but the fact of the matter is, the game is changing. If a videographer wants to invest in an aftermarket lens for the GoPro, or can fly something less wide/spherical like the Contour, Sony, etc, it's a great option for weight reduction.


LaRusic  (B License)

Aug 8, 2012, 5:16 PM
Post #11 of 46 (8560 views)
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Re: [DSE] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

im not saying i disagree with either of ya at all, just wanted to look at it from a different point of view....always gets some interesting responses :D

And Dave, i would agree that it would be nice for all the camera folks to be able to use a DSLR on full manual mode to get those nice shots. Unfortunately it is seeming to become a lost art with most opting for a P&S auto setting on the SLR or a P&S camera.....not saying that's bad but if you can manipulate the manual setting you can get some pretty sweet shots......and the only reason I can do that is from underwater photography....takes a ton of work to get a colourful shot, auto does not work at all where as above water, you can get a decent shot with just auto. A little bit of learning can go a long way to get a really good still shot.

I totally agree that pride should come into the frame as well. I just put up some 11x14 prints up in my bathroom from some of my diving (sorry i keep use diving as a reference, I dont camera fly stills) and the quality looks professional.


VideoFly  (D 25621)

Aug 8, 2012, 7:18 PM
Post #12 of 46 (8534 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I remember the days of film cameras when you had a limited number of exposures. We would have loved to take pics in the plane of the passengers and their friends, but it wasn't going to happen. Now we have virtually unlimited exposures, but people are using cameras with no zoom or flash, so what do you come up with? Shit pictures, that's what.

+1

In the days where you only got 24 exposures, we worked a lot harder to compose and shoot the best shots.

I'm not sure if it's better or worse now, but I do know that it is a very different mind set.


docjohn  (D 13182)

Aug 9, 2012, 6:26 AM
Post #13 of 46 (8451 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah the GoPro movement pisses me off because of 20+ years of shooting video/stills with heavy camcorders and film cameras. But times are changing. We're going to have to live with it. The GoPro quality is certainly better than the VHS tapes I used to hand to customers.

As far as still photos go, the customers don't know what they're missing. Its what the market will bear.

I'm not happy with it but welcome to 2012.


tonyhays  (D 26336)

Aug 9, 2012, 7:30 AM
Post #14 of 46 (8437 views)
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Re: [DSE] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
it's a great option for weight reduction.

I think that is one aspect of the small format cameras that gets ignored.

Do I prefer the quality of the DSLR's?? Of course, hands down. My beat up neck prefers the small format cameras.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 9, 2012, 7:53 AM
Post #15 of 46 (8429 views)
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Re: [tonyhays] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Do I prefer the quality of the DSLR's?? Of course, hands down. My beat up neck prefers the small format cameras

Coming from someone shooting video long enough to pre-date mini-DV and SLRs made of composite (plastic) that's a valid comment. At the same time, the significant weight reduction of a set-up with a CX and Rebel w/ kit lens should be a significant relief for your neck.

With that said, the majority of camera flyers today don't pre-date mini-DV or light weight SLRs. The 35mm Rebel came out 20 years ago, it weighed about a pound.

So what we have is a generation of camera flyers who have never carried much weight as all, and thus can't cry 'long term effects/injury' to justify their Gopro bullshit, In fact, I would suggest that the camera flyers who are willing to cop-out and shoot two Gopros are probably the newest and least experienced of the breed, as any who pre-dates Gopros in terms of camera flying probably has a higher standard for themselves.

Just like the money aspect, the weight is a red-herring at this point. Put a CX and a Rebel w/ kit lens on a scale, and compare it to a pair of GoPros. Sure, it might be double, but the weight of the Gorpros is almost nothing, so doulbe nothing is still pretty damn light. I would put my camera set-up, a Mindwarp, CX, Rebel w kit lens up against an old school hockey helmet or Bell motorcycle helmet, both of which were used for everyday jumping in the 70's and 80's, and I'd be willing to bet that my full camera rig doesn't weight that much more.

Facts are facts. A video set up with 'full feature' cameras is cheaper, lighter, and produces better results than ever before, while camera flyer pay has either gone up or at least remained the same. It's more money for less work and investment.

There's a concept called 'professionalism' and it seems to be disappearing from skydiving. It's called taking pride in your work, and holding yourself to a higher standard than 'what you can get away with'. It's not just in camera flying, but in coaching and instruction as well, and it's sad to see it getting further and further from the 'norm'.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Aug 9, 2012, 7:55 AM)


vincemoore88  (D 32404)

Aug 9, 2012, 6:27 PM
Post #16 of 46 (8359 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

Blow up the pics to 8x10 and i bet 2 out of 10 look horrible


VideoFly  (D 25621)

Aug 9, 2012, 8:21 PM
Post #17 of 46 (8341 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There's a concept called 'professionalism' and it seems to be disappearing from skydiving. It's called taking pride in your work, and holding yourself to a higher standard than 'what you can get away with'.

I remember when RW was the thing and tandems were not all that common. I wore a heavy Bell and then a Headhunter with no cutaway and a permanent ring sight. With a Hi-8 and 35mm on top, big wings and Sabre I canopies, I looked at video from an artistic viewpoint.

Yes, the gear tore my neck up with spurs that grew to make it look like the back of a Stegosaurus. At that time, not many people wanted to shoot video, but they sure respected what we did.

Now, my neck is made up of hip bone and titanium and my hands dont work well.

Through all of the good old days of video, my son, a young dropzone brat, learned the meaning of video professionalism. Today, he still lives and works to those standards, only with a safer lightweight helmet and camera gear.

I am glad hes probably not banging his neck up with heavy gear and I am proud that he still reveres the standards of professionalism, which were once more commonplace.

Lightweight camera gear is smart and safer. Additionally, wearing it does not preclude the responsibility for camera flyers to maintain professional standards while skydiving. Its not the new lightweight gear that plagues the industry. Instead, it is bad attitudes.


BMFin

Aug 11, 2012, 12:13 AM
Post #18 of 46 (8256 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Now let's look at functionality. GoPros have shit audio, fixed super-wide lenses, zero adjustability, and no control over when stills are taken. Just from my personal experience, I needed all of those features last weekend shooting tandem videos.

Have you even tried shooting the go pro?

I just recently lost my CX115+raynox HD3035. I borrowed a go pro2 from a friend untill I manage to get a hold of another CX115.

However after shooting one day (tandems) with the go pro2, theres no way i would anymore choose the CX over the go pro. The to pro wins hands down in picture quality. The only thing I liked better with the CX was the sound, and even that is easy to fix with a small 10 external microphone.

Shooting stills is another story, but for video the go pro is really nice.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Aug 11, 2012, 7:45 AM
Post #19 of 46 (8226 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

Curious, are you using a GP 1 or GP2?


BMFin

Aug 11, 2012, 7:55 AM
Post #20 of 46 (8224 views)
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Re: [DSE] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Curious, are you using a GP 1 or GP2?

Im using go pro 2


(This post was edited by BMFin on Aug 11, 2012, 7:57 AM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Aug 11, 2012, 8:02 AM
Post #21 of 46 (8218 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

i'm impressed with the GP2 as well. The Cineform codec makes a huge diff. I'm still not a fan of the oversat, but it's a leap and bound over GP1, IMO


BMFin

Aug 11, 2012, 2:07 PM
Post #22 of 46 (8179 views)
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Re: [DSE] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, i guess the default settings are quite saturated if thats what you mean. Saturation is quite easy to fix however.

Also whats really nice with the camera is how you can come up with all kinds of new angles to shoot. For example, were operating a caravan with no door and I can just close the camera inside my fist and hold it outside the door and shoot the take off. I hold the camera steady towards the nose of the plane and it looks like the camera was fixed to the fuselage. Makes really nice take off footage.


Jacked  (D 31319)

Aug 13, 2012, 4:00 PM
Post #23 of 46 (7974 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

 Gopro, hero 2... 11 MP still, also 3 field of view settings for 1080 p format. Medium setting about matches my .5 on the cx. Stills every second needs to be addressed, you miss so much in a second. I'm looking at a blow switch mod for one now...
I fly a cx150 with a t2i hosting the cannon 10-22mm and a hero-2 as well, I like the wider door shots and a different perspective, the added bonus of a backup video is not bad even though it's not intended for that it has saved my ass once already...
I think the future is going to be small format, our job is to keep the quality up as we advance to a lighter, safer, platform... Dont accept it until your issues are satisfied. Don't shut it down without checking out the end product either, you selling a fellow video guy short and that's not how we advance... I have seen 2,000 dollar head gear produce total crap and I've seen some really cool video shot with go pro's... Case in point, Skydive Dubai's official video with the super slow motion is something you should look up on youtube and watch in awe... Go pro 2's shooting 60 fps,
As far as spending money goes my respect goes to the poor video guy that has all the old hand me downs and pulls off the best shots and edits of the day, (edited by the videographer not some cookie cutting college kid that never gets to altitude)..
The link below will show you what I fly so take a look before you go blasting my liking of the idea of lighting the load with a skill/quality ratio that has no monetary value.... and a couple gopro's WinkUnimpressed

Wow I don't believe I just posted.... Must have hit a nerve...


(This post was edited by Jacked on Aug 13, 2012, 4:09 PM)
Attachments: 422308_497964143551891_733167512_n.jpg (54.9 KB)


Jacked  (D 31319)

Jul 24, 2013, 1:56 AM
Post #24 of 46 (6607 views)
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Re: [Jacked] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

i would like to revise the above as far as the still photography is concerned, The mini platform (NEX7 or the Canon) with interchangeable lens is the better choice... The GoPro is holding its own in the Video department, Lacks in still quality compared.


avenfoto  (A 44631)

Aug 3, 2013, 11:11 PM
Post #25 of 46 (6077 views)
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Re: [Jacked] Using 2 go-pros for video/stills and charging tandems $120 [In reply to] Can't Post

'm looking for the best quality stills system I can find, while simultaneously being as light as possible. Ive jumped nikon DSLR's for too long, and every monday is spent sore as hell. I love the quality of my d800, but as stated earlier, I'm not getting paid anymore for it on a tandem, so double gopros it is. Commercial work and personal projects, it's dslr all the way.
Right tool for the job kind of thing. You guys can destroy your necks for a 30$ gig if you want, but I'm done with that nonsense. Not to mention the majority of skydiving "photographers" posses less actual photography knowledge than a high school photo 101 student.

I've been intrigued by the new mirrorless systems coming out, 10fps and 25mp while remaining small and light sounds like the future to me..


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