Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Rear Riser Loops?

 

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richravizza  (B 40216)

Aug 5, 2012, 9:02 PM
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Rear Riser Loops? Can't Post

Did a solo crew pass @ 11K & Wore myself out flyn around on the rears.
If loops are on the fronts , why not the rears?
It was a great learning experiance,a couple more flights & I'll be confident enough to land with the rears.(with a stiff head wind) Loops sure would help.


Divalent  (C 40494)

Aug 5, 2012, 9:13 PM
Post #2 of 30 (1954 views)
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Re: [richravizza] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

You can hook a couple of fingers in the lines where they meet the riser and pull down from there. (However, I wear gloves, and an instructor told me it might hurt if you did it with bare hands.)


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Aug 5, 2012, 9:19 PM
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Re: [richravizza] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

Most people would seldom use them, but you can have them added to your rears. They will just be added to the forward facing side.




Ron

Aug 6, 2012, 7:25 AM
Post #5 of 30 (1814 views)
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Re: [richravizza] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If loops are on the fronts , why not the rears?

Because the rears are easier to pull down than the fronts. With the fronts a handle to grab really helps.... the rears, for most people, are not that big of a deal.

ANY activity done for a really long time will get tiresome.

So the short answer is that it has not even been needed. You are free to get a master rigger to add them if you like.


mchamp  (D 32129)

Aug 6, 2012, 8:14 AM
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Re: [richravizza] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

He's obviously hinting at trusting his rears, what forward thinking! Even though you might not even know it yourself you are wise beyond your years and already trusting your rears! A true Jedi in the making!

*Not to be taken lightly or I mean seriously or wait whatever Wink

1) Serious note, go with what the guy above said.
2) It's good to question things, helps push forward development for gear sometimes and make it better/easier to use!
3) later on you might find that spreading the rears might be a better choice as apposed to pulling them down for landing, but that's for you to decide

Have fun and be safe!


dragon2  (D 101989)

Aug 6, 2012, 8:56 AM
Post #7 of 30 (1771 views)
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Re: [richravizza] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

You can put loops on rears for sure. I had them on a 2nd hand crw canopy once. I had them removed... Too much extra bulk especially for a canopy also used for freefall.

RR blocks are a better option IMO, if you don't pull your slider down.


CReW  (D License)

Aug 6, 2012, 12:41 PM
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Re: [richravizza] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

I use rear riser loops on my CRW Rigs and really like them. I don't use any riser blocks, over size handles, vet wrap or Velcro. Those things I don't like. But, CRW controls are as unique as their pilots.
Attachments: Risers 3.0.jpg (14.7 KB)


richravizza  (B 40216)

Aug 6, 2012, 4:20 PM
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Re: [CReW] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

WOW
Thanks for all the advice, I'm thinking I'll ask my rigger to install Loops @ my next repack.
I chickened out this weekend, still haven't landed on my rears alone, there was a stiff wind on my last jump of the day,But bailed to the brakes at the last moment.GEAR FEAR?
Anyhow after 3yrs, & 180 jumps, this crw pass was a memorable jump & plan on doing one @ sunset from here on.
SO MANY HIGH SPEED TURNS/DIVES made me seasick.


theonlyski  (D License)

Aug 6, 2012, 7:35 PM
Post #10 of 30 (1595 views)
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Re: [richravizza] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
WOW
Thanks for all the advice, I'm thinking I'll ask my rigger to install Loops @ my next repack.

No real reason to wait if it's going to be a while, the risers can be disconnected at any time. Wink


Martini  (D 23756)

Aug 6, 2012, 8:52 PM
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Re: [Ron] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You are free to get a master rigger to add them if you like.

You need a master rigger to work on risers? I wonder which, if any, of my several riser sets is legal? Shocked


theonlyski  (D License)

Aug 7, 2012, 5:25 AM
Post #12 of 30 (1529 views)
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Re: [Martini] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
You are free to get a master rigger to add them if you like.

You need a master rigger to work on risers? I wonder which, if any, of my several riser sets is legal? Shocked

This is a very commonly argued topic. Personally if a senior rigger has the ability to do the work properly, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to add loops to the rear risers. By ability I mean the know how, the machines and the materials.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 7, 2012, 5:35 AM
Post #13 of 30 (1524 views)
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Re: [richravizza] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Thanks for all the advice, I'm thinking I'll ask my rigger to install Loops @ my next repack

Don't. Asdie from the extra bulk, the last thing you need on your rears, the place that your toggles, brake settigns, and extra steering line live, are more loops. There's enough going on back there to begin with, and when the time comes that you need to clear your brakes in a stressful situation, it's just more shit to go wrong if you have another set of loops back there.

The huge difference in the front and rear risers is in what happens when you pull them. When you pull the fronts down, the canopy speeds up, and the increased airpseed leads to increased pressure on the front risers. Based on this, the lopps are needed to allow you hold onto the fronts for more than a second or two.

The rears, on the other hand, have the opposite effect. They slow the canopy (airspeed) and reduce the amount of force needed to hold them down. The end result is that you don't need an 'aid' to handle the rears.

Another aspect of the rears is that they will cause the canopy to stall without too much input. So again, there's a limit to how much input you can apply to the rears, and as such, no need for help in that area.

The jumpers who have chimed in that they use rear riser loops are the CRW dogs, that's a different story. When each canopy ride is 15 min long, and can sometimes involve continuous control input, the assistance of the loops can be a benefit. Outside of a dedicated CRW rig, however, there is just no need for the extra stuff on your rear risers.


Ron

Aug 7, 2012, 5:52 AM
Post #14 of 30 (1515 views)
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Re: [Martini] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
You are free to get a master rigger to add them if you like.

You need a master rigger to work on risers? I wonder which, if any, of my several riser sets is legal? Shocked

Modifications and alterations to the TSO'd parts, and the risers are part of the rig which is part of the TSO (Although some will claim that only the tray and harness are under the TSO), need to be done by a master rigger.

Repairs are normally allowed to be done by a Sr Rigger.... Although there are limits on that on TSO'd parts as well.

So to make a long story short:
Master Riggers are allowed, Sr Riggers might be allowed depending on the FAA's reading of the rules....And anyone that has delt with the FAA knows that the FAA often changes opinions and that different agents often have different readings.

You want the best answer, call the manufacturer.

None of this is to say that a Sr would not be able... And we all know that people have done illegal things.... But the simple answer is the one I gave in my first post... A master rigger is allowed, a Sr rigger might be allowed.


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Aug 7, 2012, 6:46 AM
Post #15 of 30 (1491 views)
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Re: [Ron] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
You are free to get a master rigger to add them if you like.

You need a master rigger to work on risers? I wonder which, if any, of my several riser sets is legal? Shocked

Modifications and alterations to the TSO'd parts, and the risers are part of the rig which is part of the TSO (Although some will claim that only the tray and harness are under the TSO), need to be done by a master rigger.

Legpads are part of the rig too, so does that mean that the freefly bungy add-on can only be done by a Master Rigger ?

What about main closing loop changes ? Are the manufacturer and the various gear stores committing a crime by making regular jumpers believe that they can buy and change the closing loop all on their own ?

Is adding a hook knife snap to the legpad or mudflap a Master Rigger job too ?

When will this madness stop ? Or better yet, when will I be told that since I only have a Senior ticket I am not allowed to pack my own main ?


erdnarob  (D 364)

Aug 7, 2012, 9:17 AM
Post #16 of 30 (1468 views)
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Re: [richravizza] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

This past winter, I had to change my risers and ordering new ones at UPT Vector. I asked them to provide my new risers with rear loops. Those loops are actually placed at the front of the rear riser. My concern was that in case of a broken steering line, it would be way easier to steer the canopy (a Katana) using those rear riser loops.


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Aug 7, 2012, 9:39 AM
Post #17 of 30 (1458 views)
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Re: [Ron] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Ron,

Quote:
the risers are part of the rig which is part of the TSO

In 48 yrs of studying the TSO req'ments, spending 20 yrs on the TSO committiee, and holding numerous TSO-authorizations since 1979, IMO you could not be more incorrect.

I do not speak for the FAA.

JerryBaumchen


Ron

Aug 7, 2012, 11:11 AM
Post #18 of 30 (1439 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In 48 yrs of studying the TSO req'ments, spending 20 yrs on the TSO committiee, and holding numerous TSO-authorizations since 1979, IMO you could not be more incorrect.

You missed this part did you?
"Although some will claim that only the tray and harness are under the TSO"

And this part:
"Master Riggers are allowed, Sr Riggers might be allowed depending on the FAA's reading of the rules....And anyone that has delt with the FAA knows that the FAA often changes opinions and that different agents often have different readings.

You want the best answer, call the manufacturer. "

Quote:
I do not speak for the FAA.

And isn't the FAA the final word?


Ron

Aug 7, 2012, 11:12 AM
Post #19 of 30 (1439 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Legpads are part of the rig too, so does that mean that the freefly bungy add-on can only be done by a Master Rigger ?

You want the official answer? Call the FAA.


theonlyski  (D License)

Aug 7, 2012, 11:23 AM
Post #20 of 30 (1432 views)
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Re: [Ron] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

Next you'll say that senior riggers cannot change handles on main throw out pilot chutes.Crazy


Ron

Aug 7, 2012, 11:29 AM
Post #21 of 30 (1426 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Next you'll say that senior riggers cannot change handles on main throw out pilot chutes

Try reading again......

Maybe pay attention to this part, "Repairs are normally allowed to be done by a Sr Rigger.... Although there are limits on that on TSO'd parts as well"

Want the official answer? Call and ask the FAA.


sundevil777  (D License)

Aug 7, 2012, 11:43 AM
Post #22 of 30 (1413 views)
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Re: [Ron] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Call and ask the FAA.

It is often said that answer is pretty worthless because depending on the person you talk to, you get different answers. Who exactly would you call?


Ron

Aug 7, 2012, 12:33 PM
Post #23 of 30 (1394 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It is often said that answer is pretty worthless because depending on the person you talk to, you get different answers. Who exactly would you call?

Personally? I would not call anyone.

But I will close this out with one last post on the subject.

1. I said that people would disagree.
2. I said that I tried to give a simple answer and that answer was that there is no doubt that a Master rigger could do it.

As to your comment that different people in the FAA will give you different answers- I also said that. I said that based on my dealings with the FAA both business and private.

I'll share a quick story.

Business: We have these large containers that get put onto aircraft. Because these get locked into the airframe, the FAA now considers these part of the airframe. For 20+ years they never made that claim, then suddenly they started making it. So, we worked with the FAA to establish maximum damage to the container for it still to be airworthy and what would be considered non-airworthy. At that time, any damage UNDER that level was allowed to be 'repaired' by speed tape (this really cool aluminum tape that sticks to pretty much anything).

The FAA came back years later and said anyone that applied that tape had to be an A&P. Nevermind that the container would still be considered airworthy even without the tape in the first place. After a very long drawn out battle.... The FAA decided that the tape could be applied again by anyone, as long as they had recieved training. We asked them what the training had to consist of..... And we were told requirements that were basically an A&P.

After another round of debates, they allowed us to have an A&P give a quick class on how to apply tape and record that training in the employee files.

Now, years later, we have a short film that we show employees

Personal: I have a light plane I had some hangar rash that basically poked a little whole in the fabric on the bottom of the fuse. There were no A&P's around me that knew fabric... And a few of them told me I could fix it, others told me I could not.

Long story short, I asked three FAA aircraft MX safety folks:
1. Yes
2. No
3. I dont know, I deal with Jets.


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Aug 7, 2012, 2:10 PM
Post #24 of 30 (1359 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

Jerry,
There was some verbage ( I do not have the time to find it now) regarding this issue.

somewhat like " ....up to and including the cutaway (release) system.......
I think it was in 23-E ????

If you look at TSO 23-D, it rquires you to label all of the sub-assemblies maybe they consider the cutaway sytem a sub-assembly, ...maybe not.....


Anyway in the old Inspector's handbook, Chapter 136 was pretty vivid that it was not included.
see attached:

MEL
Attachments: Approval of Parachute Alterations.pdf (42.1 KB)


theonlyski  (D License)

Aug 7, 2012, 3:06 PM
Post #25 of 30 (1341 views)
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Re: [masterrigger1] Rear Riser Loops? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
somewhat like " ....up to and including the cutaway (release) system.......

Just to play the devils advocate, how would sewing loops at the top of the risers effect the rings at the bottom?


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