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Big suits

 

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B52  (D License)

Aug 2, 2012, 9:51 PM
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Big suits Can't Post

I am looking into buying a big suit (XBird, Venom, Fury...) and was hoping to get your thoughts on them.
In addition to low vertical speed while maintaining a good glide, stability and a relative easy pull are important to me. Thanks in advance.


murf62

Aug 2, 2012, 11:34 PM
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Re: [B52] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4338186;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

How many jumps do you have in total? How many WS jumps do you have? How many on intermediate suits such as S-Bird/Ghost 3?


matt002

Aug 3, 2012, 1:04 AM
Post #3 of 31 (2675 views)
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Re: [B52] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

I have found that the suits that have a side cell running along the side of the body (most tony suits, Venom, V4) have very good access to the boc. With the side cell maintaining inflation during the pull, the wing tips tend to be held away from the boc making the pull easier than suits where the wing meets the body near to the boc, (my skydiving rig is quite small and the boc is quite high up on my back)
I had a few uncomfortable pulls with my phantom where the material of the wing would get in the way and was very surprised that with so much more material, the pull was actually easier on my X wing and V4.


Butters  (C 37840)

Aug 3, 2012, 3:51 AM
Post #4 of 31 (2638 views)
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Re: [matt002] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I had a few uncomfortable pulls with my phantom where the material of the wing would get in the way and was very surprised that with so much more material, the pull was actually easier on my X wing and V4.

You must have been doing something wrong, very wrong, in your Phantom. Before moving to a V4 or X-Bird could you do basic acrobatics, backflying, acrobatics? Just wonder what your experience was as if you were having trouble pulling in a Phantom ...


matt002

Aug 4, 2012, 2:37 PM
Post #5 of 31 (2458 views)
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Re: [Butters] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

I hadn't thought of that, I will try some acro, see if that helps.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Aug 4, 2012, 2:43 PM
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Re: [B52] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

If you can spell Wingsuit then drop us a line and we will get an X3 out your way.


5.samadhi

Aug 4, 2012, 5:20 PM
Post #7 of 31 (2420 views)
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Re: [Butters] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I had a few uncomfortable pulls with my phantom where the material of the wing would get in the way and was very surprised that with so much more material, the pull was actually easier on my X wing and V4.

You must have been doing something wrong, very wrong, in your Phantom. Before moving to a V4 or X-Bird could you do basic acrobatics, backflying, acrobatics? Just wonder what your experience was as if you were having trouble pulling in a Phantom ...
what is your experience on suits like he is talking about (with side cells running down the entire suit)? Just to be clear - his theory that side cells running down the entire suit make the pull easier - are you saying it is wrong?


B52  (D License)

Aug 4, 2012, 6:56 PM
Post #8 of 31 (2409 views)
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Re: Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

From my experience pulling in a Ghost 3 is a bit more challenging than in a Shadow or Phantom, but still pretty easy. Anyone jumped both the XBird and the Venom? How do they compare? I assume the X3 doesn't come with arm cutaway cables? (230 Inter/Advanced, 340 total ws)


flipwithit  (D 31574)

Aug 4, 2012, 9:46 PM
Post #9 of 31 (2377 views)
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Re: [B52] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

ive owned a p2 v4 venom and apache x, in that order. i have flown everything else, rebel, x2, alien suits, etc etc. if you're looking for a big suit dont waste your time with venom or x's...(x3 is an exception for obvious reasons) go straight for the apache. super easy suit to fly, never missed a pull or grabbed a handful of suit and range like you wouldnt believe. fly it with trackers or leave everyone behind. my buddy went from a p2 to apache with no issue...i took a bit more conservative route (first sentence) and never had an issue either. the venom is long gone, tho i could never sell my v4.

in short, jump everything you can get your hands on before you decide for yourself


(This post was edited by flipwithit on Aug 4, 2012, 10:00 PM)


P-dro

Aug 5, 2012, 3:23 AM
Post #10 of 31 (2320 views)
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Re: [B52] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

I jump a Ghost 2 and I have for a few days a demo Venom. It's is significantly more challenging at pull time, you have more fabric and the grippers to deal with. it's important you have a well rehearsed pull sequence. But with your jump numbers, shouldn't be a big problem...


(This post was edited by P-dro on Aug 5, 2012, 3:26 AM)


mccordia  (D 94775)

Aug 5, 2012, 4:07 AM
Post #11 of 31 (2311 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
his theory that side cells running down the entire suit make the pull easier - are you saying it is wrong?

The longer cell allong the body (usually combined with a longer gripper as well) is the part that one needs to grab around to avoid grabbing fabric. It complicates the pull on all bigger suits instead of making it easier. With a good pull technique one can learn to pull without grabbing fabric easily, but on smaller suits this usually is no issue.


5.samadhi

Aug 5, 2012, 12:53 PM
Post #12 of 31 (2249 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
his theory that side cells running down the entire suit make the pull easier - are you saying it is wrong?

The longer cell allong the body (usually combined with a longer gripper as well) is the part that one needs to grab around to avoid grabbing fabric. It complicates the pull on all bigger suits instead of making it easier. With a good pull technique one can learn to pull without grabbing fabric easily, but on smaller suits this usually is no issue.
what about suits thats pressurize better than other types of suits? I have heard that tony suits pressurize much stronger than phoenixfly suits and thus the fabric doesnt blow around (possibly covering the handle) - making for an easier pull.


The111  (D 29246)

Aug 5, 2012, 2:22 PM
Post #13 of 31 (2223 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have heard that tony suits pressurize much stronger than phoenixfly suits and thus the fabric doesnt blow around (possibly covering the handle) - making for an easier pull.

If you have the right amount of experience for the suit you are jumping, pulling will not be an issue. This goes for every single suit made and sold commercially from 1999 to present. If pulling is an issue for you, at all, then go jump a smaller suit.


flipwithit  (D 31574)

Aug 5, 2012, 5:50 PM
Post #14 of 31 (2188 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
what about suits thats pressurize better than other types of suits? I have heard that tony suits pressurize much stronger than phoenixfly suits and thus the fabric doesnt blow around (possibly covering the handle) - making for an easier pull.

ridiculous. the venom is the strongest pressurized suit ive flown...exhausting to fly from 13k. my v4 has more arm pressure than my apache.

and what 111 said


mccordia  (D 94775)

Aug 6, 2012, 12:09 AM
Post #15 of 31 (2133 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

In my experience, suits that have a bit lower cell-pressure allow for easier pull/collapse of the armwings. Perhaps a bit more fatigue, but a lot mor agility and ease of flight in return.


Butters  (C 37840)

Aug 6, 2012, 6:13 AM
Post #16 of 31 (2090 views)
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Re: [matt002] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I hadn't thought of that, I will try some acro, see if that helps.

That was supposed to say "... basic acrobatics, backflying, docking". The more comfortable you are throwing your suit around the sky the more comfortable you'll be pulling.


Butters  (C 37840)

Aug 6, 2012, 6:17 AM
Post #17 of 31 (2088 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
what is your experience on suits like he is talking about (with side cells running down the entire suit)? Just to be clear - his theory that side cells running down the entire suit make the pull easier - are you saying it is wrong?

It's the lower wing root that covers the handle. Its ability to cover the handle is not based on it's inflation.

PS: I've flown a Phantom, Ghost, Vampire, Stealth, and Venom.


5.samadhi

Aug 6, 2012, 6:26 AM
Post #18 of 31 (2086 views)
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Re: [flipwithit] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
what about suits thats pressurize better than other types of suits? I have heard that tony suits pressurize much stronger than phoenixfly suits and thus the fabric doesnt blow around (possibly covering the handle) - making for an easier pull.

ridiculous. the venom is the strongest pressurized suit ive flown...exhausting to fly from 13k. my v4 has more arm pressure than my apache.

and what 111 said
I think that your venom is exhausting means that the cell pressure is low...having flown tony suits and phoenixfly suits I can say for sure tony suits pressure harder/more rigid. I am not sure if this means anything performace wise though because I can smoke the one guy I fly with in horizontal speed in my Vampire 2 (he flies an X3).


5.samadhi

Aug 6, 2012, 6:28 AM
Post #19 of 31 (2083 views)
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Re: [Butters] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
what is your experience on suits like he is talking about (with side cells running down the entire suit)? Just to be clear - his theory that side cells running down the entire suit make the pull easier - are you saying it is wrong?

It's the lower wing root that covers the handle. Its ability to cover the handle is not based on it's inflation.

PS: I've flown a Phantom, Ghost, Vampire, Stealth, and Venom.
Each of you stated such as fact (contradicting facts so one must be wrong). I havent flown suits with side cells running down them...but someday I will fly a V4 (hopefully!) and then I will be able to directly compare it to a suit that doesnt have the side cell (vampire 2).

thanks for the info Butters


flipwithit  (D 31574)

Aug 6, 2012, 7:29 AM
Post #20 of 31 (2054 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think that your venom is exhausting means that the cell pressure is low...having flown tony suits and phoenixfly suits I can say for sure tony suits pressure harder/more rigid. I am not sure if this means anything performace wise though because I can smoke the one guy I fly with in horizontal speed in my Vampire 2 (he flies an X3).

its exhausting because it pressurizes so hard that going from laying in the suit to 'popping,' bringing your arms to your side or trying to touch your heals should be a new work out. its more exhausting to do what you want with a more rigid wing, laying in it is a different story.


The111  (D 29246)

Aug 6, 2012, 8:31 AM
Post #21 of 31 (2027 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In my experience, suits that have a bit lower cell-pressure allow for easier pull/collapse of the armwings. Perhaps a bit more fatigue, but a lot mor agility and ease of flight in return.

It's not just the pull that benefits from lower pressurization, it's also dynamic moves. For me, the amount of pressure needed is just enough to keep it from flapping around. The rest is done by me.

I keep seeing people in P3's and asking them what the biggest improvement over the P2 is, and they all say better pressurization. I don't get it, because my P2 pressurizes fine. I wouldn't want it to pressurize more.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Aug 6, 2012, 8:34 AM
Post #22 of 31 (2026 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
cell pressure is low.

Cell pressure doesn't differ much from one suit to another on modern wingsuits. The biggest difference between a harder and softer wing is how thick the actual wing is. Similar to inflatable beds, a bed of only a few cm thick with 1 atmosphere of pressure inside will be easier to bend/fold than an inflatable matras thats 50 cm thick.

The thicker wing profile takes a lot of strain of the arm, but at the same times makes the wingsuit behave more like one surface (which in some of the bigger suits can lead to instability) also due to interconnected surfaces (leg input influencing arm-input and vice-versa).

One isn't necessarily better than the other. But its more what the pilot prefers. Different manufacturers design towards different goals in terms of flying.


5.samadhi

Aug 6, 2012, 9:08 AM
Post #23 of 31 (2007 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
cell pressure is low.

Cell pressure doesn't differ much from one suit to another on modern wingsuits. The biggest difference between a harder and softer wing is how thick the actual wing is. Similar to inflatable beds, a bed of only a few cm thick with 1 atmosphere of pressure inside will be easier to bend/fold than an inflatable matras thats 50 cm thick.

The thicker wing profile takes a lot of strain of the arm, but at the same times makes the wingsuit behave more like one surface (which in some of the bigger suits can lead to instability) also due to interconnected surfaces (leg input influencing arm-input and vice-versa).

One isn't necessarily better than the other. But its more what the pilot prefers. Different manufacturers design towards different goals in terms of flying.
interesting information! So what is the difference in thickness between say a V4 and an X3? Does it matter if you build the suit out of ZP or parapack?

My friend was telling me something about 'locking' the pressurization of his X3 with some valve. I wasn't really following how it worked...that certainly sounds innovative and like it would make the wing more rigid (above and beyond simply the thickness of the material).


mccordia  (D 94775)

Aug 6, 2012, 9:23 AM
Post #24 of 31 (1996 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

Airlocks by themselves dont make wings harder or softer. Nor are they a new thing. Its essentially a vent. They've been used on wingsuits as early back as the Acro, Birdman Blade, Firebird etc. Its simply a bit of fabric that closes of when air wants to come out. These airlocks serve a function when the wing is inverted (keeping the air in) and thus are often found on suits that are made for aerobatics.

But in full flight, air is always streaming into the wing. So regardless of locking/design, there is no working airlock during flight. Its simply an open vent when air is flowing.
The advantage of an airlocked chamber is that temporary loss of pressurization is prevented when there isnt airflow. The downside that can happen with airlocks, is that inflation is hindered in the first few seconds due to the vent being very small.

But in general, the wing holding pressure is also seen mostly by volume of air inside the wing. A very thin/flat wing like the P2/P3 will bleed of the air quicker than the thicker/bigger wing of a Ghost3. Both have the exact same cell pressure. But the thicker wings of the Ghost3 often have people talking about 'the higher cell pressure' and 'better airlocks'.

But seeing as the vent is open when air is flowing in, the only time airlocks really do their job on a suit flown on the belly is when we try and push the air out at pulltime/try to collapse wings.

Just look at side profiles of different wingsuit/designs built for either agility or distance, and you'l see sleek/thin lines (low drag) on suits made for agility and thicker profiles on suits built for stamina/distance.

On ZeroP vs Parapak:
Zero P holds air a bit better (parapak is slightly more leaking in terms of keeping the air inside, but its not a big difference)
Parapak has a bit more drag (rougher structure)
ZeroP is a bit lighter (saves several 100 grams on bigger suits). The extreme are suits made from a special Cameroon ZeroP fabric. They are noticably lighter and more slick compared to other suits.


johnmatrix  (D 9999)

Aug 6, 2012, 10:37 PM
Post #25 of 31 (1887 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Big suits [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the info, that's interesting.


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