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Sigma "Super Drogues"??

 

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SpectreDriver  (D 26287)

Jul 26, 2012, 10:30 AM
Post #1 of 49 (4949 views)
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Sigma "Super Drogues"?? Can't Post

I was recently sold this new super-drogue by a friend at another DZ. (Apparently they are being manufactured by Simon Wade.) It appears significantly more durable and made of heavy-duty fabric throughout.

I got home with it and realized the safety-pin was sewn to the wrong side of the bridle... I was told there was a "bad batch" of this error and am expecting a replacement soon.

Point is: I've paid for this thing but haven't jumped with it yet. Anybody have any experience with them? Pros/ cons? Any opening differences?


Halfpastniner  (D 30747)

Jul 26, 2012, 5:17 PM
Post #2 of 49 (4763 views)
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Re: [SpectreDriver] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

We have a pretty decent amount of Jumps on Simon Drogues. They are total tanks. Last forever with very little maintenance. Simon makes some good stuff, and he is an awesome guy too. Can't go wrong! (except on the whole pin on wrong side thing, but i'm sure he will fix that!)


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 26, 2012, 6:11 PM
Post #3 of 49 (4739 views)
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Re: [Halfpastniner] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Last forever with very little maintenance.

How many of those plastic death-star handles have you had break off?

Wink


douwanto  (D 23851)

Jul 26, 2012, 6:30 PM
Post #4 of 49 (4735 views)
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Re: [SpectreDriver] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

We have 14 rigs half with Simons and Half with OE and I can tell you Simons Rigging Services Drogues are bullet Prof. And =1 on the great guy but dont ever let him know that.... Cool


raff

Jul 26, 2012, 7:15 PM
Post #5 of 49 (4716 views)
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Re: [SpectreDriver] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was recently sold this new super-drogue by a friend at another DZ. (Apparently they are being manufactured by Simon Wade.) It appears significantly more durable and made of heavy-duty fabric throughout.

I got home with it and realized the safety-pin was sewn to the wrong side of the bridle... I was told there was a "bad batch" of this error and am expecting a replacement soon.

Point is: I've paid for this thing but haven't jumped with it yet. Anybody have any experience with them? Pros/ cons? Any opening differences?
I don't know what UPT's posture is on their use, but they are, in fact, super. I wish we had all of our rigs so equipped.


hackish  (No License)

Jul 26, 2012, 8:09 PM
Post #6 of 49 (4690 views)
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Re: [raff] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

We just replaced a drogue with a replacement UPT unit last weekend. Many of the wear items have been redesigned and the bridle is no longer made of kevlar. I'm rather resistant to the idea of replacing a part of a tandem system with a non-manufacturer part.

-Michael


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Jul 27, 2012, 1:25 AM
Post #7 of 49 (4624 views)
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Re: [SpectreDriver] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi

As a UPT/USPA T I/E I'm saying that you & your DZ going wrong by using a drouges/parts which are NOT APPROVED by UPT the Sigma System mfg.

Using Non-Approved mfg. items on the Sigma System which is approved as a SYSTEM might put you & your DZ in legal issue even it is the MAIN container.

UPT's new Ty.12 bridle drouges are great & yes the drouge have a life limit of 600 jumps for the canopy & the center bridle & 300 jumps for the lower part & the Kill line.

A drouge canopy which is over jumpd might effect the drag of the collapsed drouge in case of a cutaway.

T I/E, TI's & DZO's which use non-approved canopies & part in approved systems - all of you are helping tandem to be history & you might face charges by law when you will face an incident & be pointed by the Mfg.'s for using non-approved parts.

You might "SAVE" now some $$ & pay "big time" in the future.

Be Smart !!!


(This post was edited by RIGGER on Jul 27, 2012, 2:00 AM)


ActionAir  (D License)

Jul 27, 2012, 4:15 PM
Post #8 of 49 (4441 views)
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Re: [RIGGER] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
reply]Smile Hi
"As a UPT/USPA T I/E I'm saying that you & your DZ going wrong by using a drouges/parts which are NOT APPROVED by UPT the Sigma System mfg.
Using Non-Approved mfg. items on the Sigma System which is approved as a ‘SYSTEM’ might put you & your DZ in legal issue even it is the MAIN container.
UPT's new Ty.12 bridle drouges are great & yes the drouge have a life limit of 600 jumps for the canopy & the center bridle & 300 jumps for the lower part & the Kill line.
A drouge canopy which is over jumped might effect the drag of the collapsed drouge in case of a cutaway.
T I/E, TI's & DZO's which use non-approved canopies & part in approved systems - all of you are helping tandem to be history & you might face charges by law when you will face an incident & be pointed by the Mfg.'s for using non-approved parts.
You might "SAVE" now some $$ & pay "big time" in the future.
Be Smart !!!"


As another UPT/USPA T I/E and FAA DPRE I'm saying that this is pure BS. A master rigger can determine compatibility between TSO'ed items. And if it is not a TSO'ed item, you are free to use the best product you can find. The idea that the MFG is the ONLY one that can determine compatibility is absolutely wrong. It just so happens that the MFG only approves the items that you can ONLY buy from them. That's a great way to stifle innovation and competition. And this "wise" bit of info comes from a DZ that flies a Blackhawk converted Grand Caravan. Guess what, Cessna does not approve!

This guy will also tell you that on its 20th brthday your reserve canopy, which may not have been packed more than 40 times and may not have ever seen the light of day, is no longer airworthy. That is also B.S.
The FAA has just clarified this issue. Any life limit stated is a RECOMMENDATION only. And is not a rule or limit, unless the MFG can substantiate a safety issue. Then an Airworthiness Directive (AD) would have to be issued. It is a Rigger’s job to inspect and repack a parachute, thereby “recertifying” it as airworthy. If Shlomo or any other rigger is not willing to do their job, they should retire their rigger’s seal and change professions.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 27, 2012, 4:20 PM
Post #9 of 49 (4439 views)
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Re: [ActionAir] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This guy will also tell you that on its 20th brthday your reserve canopy, which may not have been packed more than 40 times and may not have ever seen the light of day, is no longer airworthy. That is also B.S.
The FAA has just clarified this issue. Any life limit stated is a RECOMMENDATION only. And is not a rule or limit, unless the MFG can substantiate a safety issue. Then an Airworthiness Directive (AD) would have to be issued.

Just curious, do you have a reference for this?


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jul 27, 2012, 4:35 PM
Post #10 of 49 (4434 views)
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Re: [ActionAir] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me understand, you're saying the Manufacturer's word is not true? That no matter what, You can mix and match components? Then why did Icarus, and Precision, etc, have to do testing to receive a manufacturer endorsement for their mains and reserves?

If the Cessna "Mod" is wrong, how is the Rig "Mod" right?

Matt


ActionAir  (D License)

Jul 27, 2012, 5:08 PM
Post #11 of 49 (4426 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
"If the Cessna "Mod" is wrong, how is the Rig "Mod" right?"

That's the point. It is not "Wrong". And Blackhawk did not need Cessna's blessing to do the mod. They went through the STC process. It is a great conversion. We have a Blackhawk, 850 HP, Grand Caravan here.
Cheers,


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jul 28, 2012, 8:32 AM
Post #12 of 49 (4316 views)
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Re: [ActionAir] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
"If the Cessna "Mod" is wrong, how is the Rig "Mod" right?"

That's the point. It is not "Wrong". And Blackhawk did not need Cessna's blessing to do the mod. They went through the STC process. It is a great conversion. We have a Blackhawk, 850 HP, Grand Caravan here.
Cheers,

But they went through a process to make sure it would work, not so with the drogues, right?

Matt


stratostar  (Student)

Jul 28, 2012, 9:11 AM
Post #13 of 49 (4311 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

IS the sigma drouge TSO'd? (no I didn't bother to look it up)

I don't believe it is, it's part of the main and as Ray pointed out, a master can make one and use it and a Sr. is legal to pack it.

It would not require an STC, like the airplane would.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Jul 28, 2012, 9:11 AM)


ActionAir  (D License)

Jul 28, 2012, 9:12 AM
Post #14 of 49 (4309 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
"If the Cessna "Mod" is wrong, how is the Rig "Mod" right?"

That's the point. It is not "Wrong". And Blackhawk did not need Cessna's blessing to do the mod. They went through the STC process. It is a great conversion. We have a Blackhawk, 850 HP, Grand Caravan here.
Cheers,

But they went through a process to make sure it would work, not so with the drogues, right?
Matt

Now you are ASSuming things. Thanks for the banter.
Bye.


douwanto  (D 23851)

Jul 28, 2012, 2:58 PM
Post #15 of 49 (4264 views)
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Re: [RIGGER] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

We purchased ours because UPT had none in Stock. And could not tell us when they would be ready.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jul 28, 2012, 4:49 PM
Post #16 of 49 (4234 views)
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Re: [ActionAir] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
"If the Cessna "Mod" is wrong, how is the Rig "Mod" right?"

That's the point. It is not "Wrong". And Blackhawk did not need Cessna's blessing to do the mod. They went through the STC process. It is a great conversion. We have a Blackhawk, 850 HP, Grand Caravan here.
Cheers,

But they went through a process to make sure it would work, not so with the drogues, right?
Matt

Now you are ASSuming things. Thanks for the banter.
Bye.

Come on Ray you're better than that, it is a valid question worthy of an actual answer.

Best I can recall, this backs the Manufacturers, reading the last sentence or Paragraph "C".

c. Assembly of Major Components. The assembly or mating of approved parachute components from different manufacturers may be made by a certificated, appropriately rated parachute rigger in accordance with the parachute manufacturer’s instructions and without further authorization by the manufacturer or the FAA. Specifically, when various parachute components are interchanged, the parachute rigger should follow the canopy manufacturer’s instructions as well as the parachute container manufacturer’s instructions. However, the container manufacturer’s instructions take precedence when there is a conflict between the two.
(1) Assembled parachute components must be compatible. Each component of the resulting assembly must function properly and may not interfere with the operation of the other components. For example:
Par 13 Page 13
AC 105-2D 5/18/11"

So, I think a valid answer is acceptable to expect, to my question.

Matt


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 28, 2012, 5:50 PM
Post #17 of 49 (4224 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Par 13 Page 13
AC 105-2D 5/18/11

FWIW, I believe AC 105-2D was rescinded.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 28, 2012, 7:38 PM
Post #18 of 49 (4195 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
"If the Cessna "Mod" is wrong, how is the Rig "Mod" right?"

That's the point. It is not "Wrong". And Blackhawk did not need Cessna's blessing to do the mod. They went through the STC process. It is a great conversion. We have a Blackhawk, 850 HP, Grand Caravan here.
Cheers,

But they went through a process to make sure it would work, not so with the drogues, right?

Matt

What would make you think Simon did not do any testing with his drogues?


ActionAir  (D License)

Jul 28, 2012, 10:09 PM
Post #19 of 49 (4158 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

AC105-2d was recended and it only refers to TSOed items. The Drogue is not TSOed.

Here's my real point. Riggers have privileges that they have earned, especially Master Riggers. But people like shlomo are willing to give up all of their privileges to the mfg and just tow the line. I am not.
Unfortunately this forum is full of opinions with very little knowledge. Which I why I rarely engage.
That is all,


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Jul 29, 2012, 12:28 AM
Post #20 of 49 (4137 views)
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Re: [ActionAir] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi

Dear Ray, I did not answered your "long" post because I did not saw any reason to open it up for all you said there.

Mixing up aircrafts STC with parachutes, myself & the DZ's C208B I'm working at looks to me a mix of ????? - I will not use the 2 letters you used there - still giving you respect.

Riggers have the rights & the privilages given by law in the certificate they hold BUT all our work is done by the MFG. INSTRUCTIONS which are a part of the product TSO if it is TSO'd or the Mfg. APPROVED parts as it should be - Mfg. are testing different than we might think based on the whole desing process which we are the riggers & users might not be aware to critical points found & fixed during the MFG. tests.

Myself & other many good Riggers & TI & T I/E are giving FULL respect to the MFG.'s & honor the R&D & the work they made to keep all of us SAFER - we are not giving away our privilages by doing that - we keep our ticket safe & clean by following the Mfg. instructions - this is the only way to protect youself by following the MFG. INSTRUCTIONS - if a Rigger, TI, T I/E found the instructions to be wrong or ??? he should STOP & contact the Mfg. for details & clearing up issues.

I also do not serve parachutes over 20 years & other riggers/lofts do the same as well - you don't like that ? please work as you like do what ever you think is the best for yourself BUT do not try to go LOW with posters here that thinks different & no personal attacks - it does not add you respect or honor - if you want to be respected please respect others as well.

If I think as a Master Rigger & a T I/E that I'm not happy with a part / item or an Instruction or I have a better idea I'll contact the Mfg. present my idea & deal with the Mfg. about it -I did it in the past with UPT & others & it always worked - they learned & I learned & all were happy.

I do not think I did wrong by pointing out here that the original Mfg. parts should be used - it is by the manual & might save the users from future issue.

UPT mfg. the drouges based on a long time R&D & improvments & matching the VR360 reserve used in the Sigma as the ONLY UPT's APPROVD Tandem Reserve to be used in the V2 & Sigma tandem SYSTEMS.

Simon Wade is a good friend & I visited him few times but if he have a "Super Drogue" he should contact UPT & present it.

Dear Ray, with respect to you.

Cheers


(This post was edited by RIGGER on Jul 29, 2012, 3:27 AM)


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Jul 29, 2012, 12:31 AM
Post #21 of 49 (4135 views)
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Re: [douwanto] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi

Thanks - I know that UPT could be out of some parts.

My way is to order early & keep in stock - never go to the Red Line for no parts.

Keep your stock full & put a Red line & order again.

I'll never use Non Approved parts - Mfg. Approved parts only !!!

Cheers


(This post was edited by RIGGER on Jul 29, 2012, 12:47 AM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jul 29, 2012, 3:43 AM
Post #22 of 49 (4101 views)
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Re: [SpectreDriver] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Back in the 1980s and 1990s, Strong Enterprises used to build drogues out of 1.5 ounce fabric that lasted like iron. The only problem was that Strong was not selling enough replacement drogues to stay in business.
Hah!
Hah!
I would prefer to see all drogues made in three or four parts all held together with soft links, so that riggers could mix-and-match parts from tired drogues to make one good drogue.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jul 29, 2012, 9:29 AM
Post #23 of 49 (4041 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
"If the Cessna "Mod" is wrong, how is the Rig "Mod" right?"

That's the point. It is not "Wrong". And Blackhawk did not need Cessna's blessing to do the mod. They went through the STC process. It is a great conversion. We have a Blackhawk, 850 HP, Grand Caravan here.
Cheers,

But they went through a process to make sure it would work, not so with the drogues, right?

Matt

What would make you think Simon did not do any testing with his drogues?

If he did, then the poster should have been clearer in his point.

Matt


stratostar  (Student)

Jul 29, 2012, 10:31 AM
Post #24 of 49 (4029 views)
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Re: [ActionAir] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
AC105-2d was recended

When did that happen? I missed that being reported.


tdog  (D 28800)

Jul 30, 2012, 6:50 AM
Post #25 of 49 (3860 views)
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Re: [RIGGER] Sigma "Super Drogues"?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
our work is done by the MFG. INSTRUCTIONS which are a part of the product TSO

I looked around for a while and could not find on UPT's manuals anything saying the drogue was TSOed, or discussed the proper selection of replacement parts for the drogue.

Can you cite anything definitive? I am not being argumentative, just trying to find the source and I can't.


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