Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid

 

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rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 23, 2012, 7:51 AM
Post #101 of 150 (1545 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:

agreed for your canopy or even mine - (referencing Dave's not on losing all that surface area aft of the D line attachment)

bigger ones - I have no issue cutting a steering line (but I'd still do both) and landing on rears if I had to wrap up the opposite line too much

Hmmm? Not sure I'd spend the time/altitude messing around. Gotta trust your reserve.

(I know you're asking this for the newbies, Mike. I'll play Laugh)

Hmmmmm? are you saying you don't look at your altitude at all? - If you are going to make a gross generalization, then I am required to respond by asking if you cut away on a simple brake getting knocked loose on opening at 4000 feet? (of course not, if you recognize that's what it is above your hard deck, you'd just release the other one)

IMO - If you have time and altitude to 'spend', go ahead and use it if so inclined - just pay attention and let a control check press the final decision once you get all trimmed up. If you don't that much time, then the quicker answer is the chop, of course. I trust my reserve, but I trust that already open, perfectly good canopy slightly more. (with my canopy, it's typically pretty quick from seeing the problem to determining if it's worth spending any time, they spin up quick when it's bad, and fly pretty nice when it's workable)

stick with your decision hard deck at all times

now, are you still skeptical now that I've had to provide the full picture for the kids?

agree on the comment about your experience and planning apply greatly here - my numbers are at the left, I've had a high speed and a low speed malfunction, a crw wrap/cutaway, and an airplane crash for further pedigree - not great, but a sampling.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jul 23, 2012, 8:05 AM)


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 23, 2012, 4:02 PM
Post #102 of 150 (1451 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:
I suppose I should be more afraid of canopy flying etc however as a licensed pilot and now 6 years in aviation since i was 19 for better or worse I am comfortable with flight.
I agree of course no matter what, my safety margin is narrowed by my canopy choice etc. It's fun as hell tho.

How many engine out's did you have without a good runway to aim for?

We don't have the luxury of being able to go around if our approach isn't good enough this time. Sometimes you even end up trying to figure out where the hell you are. I won't go into the details of this clip, but can you honestly say you could do the same/better? Downwind none the less?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqoxnwxF3CA

Yes I know, spot sucked, pulled low, blah blah, again the reasons behind the off landing are nobody here's business. Wink

yeah skeptics would say he was lucky but the s turn on final makes me think he picked his spot. i assume there was no out behind him and downwind was necessary etc yeah not to judge. i dont judge any more here. lol


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 23, 2012, 4:04 PM
Post #103 of 150 (1450 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

He = me. Wink

Yes I picked it, was the most reasonable lz.

The point is, can you do that? Would you even try on your canopy?


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 23, 2012, 4:57 PM
Post #104 of 150 (1428 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

You really don't want to hear my answer. I would rather not contradict your point eitther out of respect.
2000 jumps from now I would be able to perform a landing much like that with a far greater safety margin than I ever could at this moment.

I can accuracy land proficiently with my Safire and so far so good on the Xfire. slide landings are something I am comfortable with as well.
As per my worn out jump pants.
I was comfortable landing my Safire in downwind conditions.

I appreciate your post thank you

I will conclude by saying, in those conditions under what I fly I hope to not find myself there as I would be past my comfort zone.


sunkenstate  (A License)

Jul 23, 2012, 5:03 PM
Post #105 of 150 (1422 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting video. Thanks for posting. My first instinct watching the video (and presumably what I would have done under canopy) would have been to take a wrap to satisfy my control check and land under rears or using the half brake lines.

That said, I'm inexperienced, own a pretty forgiving canopy, and haven't had to chop yet. Still, I've landed it downwind with late flares and came out OK, and actually am not able to totally stall my canopy using steering lines alone. Maybe I would have broken myself this time.

The consensus on here seems to be for chopping.

Certainly food for thought, but then again a malfunction isn't the time for deep thought.


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 23, 2012, 5:04 PM
Post #106 of 150 (1423 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

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He = me. Wink

Yes I picked it, was the most reasonable lz.

The point is, can you do that? Would you even try on your canopy?

Nice landing btw


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 23, 2012, 5:26 PM
Post #107 of 150 (1405 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

not that this is much of a downwind or anything
but whatever a show of some kind of ability. from a while ago


http://www.youtube.com/my_videos_edit?ns=1&video_id=mfN4RI1B7Ws


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 23, 2012, 5:51 PM
Post #108 of 150 (1390 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

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You really don't want to hear my answer. I would rather not contradict your point eitther out of respect.
2000 jumps from now I would be able to perform a landing much like that with a far greater safety margin than I ever could at this moment.

I can accuracy land proficiently with my Safire and so far so good on the Xfire. slide landings are something I am comfortable with as well.
As per my worn out jump pants.
I was comfortable landing my Safire in downwind conditions.

I appreciate your post thank you

I will conclude by saying, in those conditions under what I fly I hope to not find myself there as I would be past my comfort zone.

My point was, you never know when 'those conditions' may pop up and bite you in the ass. If you're already barely edging on your comfort level with your good landing area, perhaps you should make yourself more comfortable before you change your wing.


hillson  (D 33134)

Jul 23, 2012, 5:51 PM
Post #109 of 150 (1387 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

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not that this is much of a downwind or anything
but whatever a show of some kind of ability. from a while ago


http://www.youtube.com/my_videos_edit?ns=1&video_id=mfN4RI1B7Ws

Assuming it is this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfN4RI1B7Ws...been a while since I've seen someone swoop from the southwest corner. Might of even rated a golf clap from the deck. Crazy


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jul 23, 2012, 5:52 PM
Post #110 of 150 (1384 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

What was the "pucker" factor on that landing Robert, you seemed pretty breathlessSlySlySly


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 23, 2012, 5:54 PM
Post #111 of 150 (1382 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

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What was the "pucker" factor on that landing Robert, you seemed pretty breathlessSlySlySly

The landing was sporty. Wink

As I said, the heavy breathing was to calm me down after the jump (keep my fine motor controls) and keep the helmet from fogging up.


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 23, 2012, 6:00 PM
Post #112 of 150 (1377 views)
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Re: [hillson] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
not that this is much of a downwind or anything
but whatever a show of some kind of ability. from a while ago


http://www.youtube.com/my_videos_edit?ns=1&video_id=mfN4RI1B7Ws

Assuming it is this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfN4RI1B7Ws...been a while since I've seen someone swoop from the southwest corner. Might of even rated a golf clap from the deck. Crazy
golf clap...hmm not going to get me the girlsis what your saying. Lol


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 24, 2012, 4:38 AM
Post #113 of 150 (1311 views)
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Re: [sunkenstate] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Interesting video. Thanks for posting. My first instinct watching the video (and presumably what I would have done under canopy) would have been to take a wrap to satisfy my control check and land under rears or using the half brake lines.

That said, I'm inexperienced, own a pretty forgiving canopy, and haven't had to chop yet. Still, I've landed it downwind with late flares and came out OK, and actually am not able to totally stall my canopy using steering lines alone. Maybe I would have broken myself this time.

The consensus on here seems to be for chopping.

Certainly food for thought, but then again a malfunction isn't the time for deep thought.

I said it earlier and I`ll repeat it ....since people seem to be ignoring the other factors that can injure or kill you trying to land a canopy that needs inputs to keep it flying straight.....

Turbulence close to the ground can collapse your canopy completely. close to the ground your only options are the hospital or morgue.

If you cannot control the canopy easily by the time you reach your hard deck....chop it.

By far the best and safest option.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 24, 2012, 4:40 AM
Post #114 of 150 (1308 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

 You haven`t answered my question.

Why was the cutaway, in your opinion, "very dangerous"?.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 24, 2012, 7:04 AM
Post #115 of 150 (1277 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

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If you cannot control the canopy easily by the time you reach your hard deck....chop it.

this is really the only answer

decision, whatever it is, is at your hard deck, based on a control check

What you do before your hard deck (panic, take a wrap to balance the flight, cut the lines, try to clear the knot, eat a sammich, take more pictures with one of your 7 go-pros) is your business, but you have to decide before then whatever you do.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jul 24, 2012, 7:04 AM)


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 24, 2012, 10:45 AM
Post #116 of 150 (1218 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

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You haven`t answered my question.

Why was the cutaway, in your opinion, "very dangerous"?.

It seemed like the jumper in the video was low. his broken english description said something about 1000ft. it seems that he made a good choice tho. I didn't apreciate how he blamed the packers for any of the errors. Mentioning the line coming unstowed and not how he pulled it through rather carelessly rubbed me wrong. I don't think it's an excuse to be lazy and pay for pack jobs. then blame the packers for your problems. But I take all that back because videos are very one dimensional and hard to get a full picture of it.
Enough on that
I know at this point you want to harp on me so your hoping I say something ridiculous.
Thank you for your posts


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jul 24, 2012, 12:32 PM
Post #117 of 150 (1189 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

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Enough on that
I know at this point you want to harp on me so your hoping I say something ridiculous.
Thank you for your posts


OK... You took some flack, we all do at times. I think people here like to jump on peoples mistakes. However, I also like to think their intent is to make sure we "get it right" and debate the gray area. Don't take it personally! Take it as lesson learned... hopefully, the lesson is learned? Smile


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 24, 2012, 2:35 PM
Post #118 of 150 (1121 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
You haven`t answered my question.

Why was the cutaway, in your opinion, "very dangerous"?.

It seemed like the jumper in the video was low. his broken english description said something about 1000ft. it seems that he made a good choice tho. I didn't apreciate how he blamed the packers for any of the errors. Mentioning the line coming unstowed and not how he pulled it through rather carelessly rubbed me wrong. I don't think it's an excuse to be lazy and pay for pack jobs. then blame the packers for your problems. But I take all that back because videos are very one dimensional and hard to get a full picture of it.
Enough on that
I know at this point you want to harp on me so your hoping I say something ridiculous.
Thank you for your posts


Forget all the peripheral stuff. Im still not clear why you thought the cutaway was dangerous. 1000 feet is not dangerously low, if thats what you thought.....

When in doubt, the safest thing to do is cut away and pull your reserve. Of course you need to be aware of your altitude, and make a decision one way or the other at your hard deck.

There was nothing dangerous about the cutaway, at all. 1000 feet is prolly his hard deck (as is mine). He got there, wasnt happy about landing his canopy safely, was decisive with his decision making, and executed his EPs perfectly. All actions which will help keep him safe in a stress situation.

Be careful about slinging words like "dangerous" around. Somone might believe you and injure or kill themselves because they thought cutting away was dangerous. It simply isn`t so......


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 24, 2012, 3:20 PM
Post #119 of 150 (1098 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
You haven`t answered my question.

Why was the cutaway, in your opinion, "very dangerous"?.

It seemed like the jumper in the video was low. his broken english description said something about 1000ft. it seems that he made a good choice tho. I didn't apreciate how he blamed the packers for any of the errors. Mentioning the line coming unstowed and not how he pulled it through rather carelessly rubbed me wrong. I don't think it's an excuse to be lazy and pay for pack jobs. then blame the packers for your problems. But I take all that back because videos are very one dimensional and hard to get a full picture of it.
Enough on that
I know at this point you want to harp on me so your hoping I say something ridiculous.
Thank you for your posts


Forget all the peripheral stuff. Im still not clear why you thought the cutaway was dangerous. 1000 feet is not dangerously low, if thats what you thought.....

When in doubt, the safest thing to do is cut away and pull your reserve. Of course you need to be aware of your altitude, and make a decision one way or the other at your hard deck.

There was nothing dangerous about the cutaway, at all. 1000 feet is prolly his hard deck (as is mine). He got there, wasnt happy about landing his canopy safely, was decisive with his decision making, and executed his EPs perfectly. All actions which will help keep him safe in a stress situation.

Be careful about slinging words like "dangerous" around. Somone might believe you and injure or kill themselves because they thought cutting away was dangerous. It simply isn`t so......

Ok i apreciate the explination and I agree. I do not have cutaway expirience and shOuldnt talk like I am an expert there agreed
back me up and say that his description seemed a little like he was not taking responsibility for the error. Only mentioned a packer making a mistake. Etc


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Jul 24, 2012, 4:08 PM
Post #120 of 150 (1081 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Obelixtim,

Going through 1,000 Ft, I might think about a canopy transfer....thoughts? 1000 ft is getting fairly low....


hookitt  (D License)

Jul 24, 2012, 4:27 PM
Post #121 of 150 (1078 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

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Obelixtim,

Going through 1,000 Ft, I might think about a canopy transfer....thoughts? 1000 ft is getting fairly low....

Personally. If I was at 1000 with a low speed mall that was not safe to land, it would be a cutaway and reserve pull. Pretty close to simultaneous. A canopy transfer to me would be more dangerous.

On that note, though I have no issues with 1000 feet, I don't wait that long.

Consider this. From 1000 feet, you have about 10 seconds to impact if you cutaway from a low speed mal and do nothing. All my low speed cutaways, the parachutes inflated in WELL under 200 feet. Closer to 100 than 200.

During a planned breakaway, I took a 1 second delay. 2 seconds later my canopy was inflated. So 3 seconds including a 1 second delay is really not a big altitude loss.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 24, 2012, 4:28 PM
Post #122 of 150 (1076 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

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Obelixtim,

Going through 1,000 Ft, I might think about a canopy transfer....thoughts? 1000 ft is getting fairly low....

Im quite comfortable chopping at a grand, no problems at all with that. At 1000 feet its action time, all my thinking has been done before that altitude. 1000 feet is not the place to be thinking about other actions that you havent prepared for.

Canopy transfers can be a whole new can of worms, especially if your main is not flying straight. I`ve tried a couple myself under test conditions, and even pre planned they don`t always go as you expected them to.

I have already pre planned my actions for different scenarios, and stick to my pre planned drills. Its the safest way, no room for doubt or uncertainty. its important to make a decision and stick to it. Quite comfortable trusting my reserve at 1000 feet.


Indecision will get you into trouble, for sure.

Every skydiver needs to put thought into their drills for different scenarios, and always be ready for the unexpected. It amazes me that some people fear their reserve.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Jul 24, 2012, 4:39 PM
Post #123 of 150 (1069 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Fair points.

I've always set 1800 ft as my hard deck...and I've stuck to it. I also tend to unstow brakes immediately after opening in case of an issue.

I don't think i would intentionally fight anything to 1,000 ft and then get rid of it. It would likely be gone long before that. If I'm at 1,000 ft i've likely made the decision to land it already.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 24, 2012, 5:19 PM
Post #124 of 150 (1044 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Fair points.

I've always set 1800 ft as my hard deck...and I've stuck to it. I also tend to unstow brakes immediately after opening in case of an issue.

I don't think i would intentionally fight anything to 1,000 ft and then get rid of it. It would likely be gone long before that. If I'm at 1,000 ft i've likely made the decision to land it already.

Thats right, EP`s are better carried out as high as possible. Hard deck is exactly that.

Thing is, a nasty problem is actually easier to deal with, because it doesn`t leave you any choice, and is dealt with immediately, and the higher the better.

Its actually the slow ones that can catch you out the worst, because it gives you time to play with it, and its easy to get fixated on the problem and forget about your altitude. if you go below your hard deck in this situation then you have cut down your options considerably.

Task fixation can also cause a loss of awareness of other important factors, like alternative methods of dealing with a problem, and problems that might crop up on landing, like turbulence, and reaching a safe LZ.

Its easy to get caught out, I speak from experience, Dealt with quite a few nasties, but the one that nearly got me was a fully opened canopy with a small hang up....i was lucky to walk away from that one, and I never count on luck.....I got a little complacent and careless, broke all my own rules, and nearly paid for it.....


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 24, 2012, 9:33 PM
Post #125 of 150 (984 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

  

Every skydiver needs to put thought into their drills for different scenarios, and always be ready for the unexpected. It amazes me that some people fear their reserve.
I would say I "fear [the] reserve" in some way. Never thought of it like that. But it's a natural instinct to not want to use your "last hope".


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