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Two out from a static line.

 

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castrodavidd  (C 33299)

Jul 23, 2012, 9:20 PM
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Two out from a static line. Can't Post

The instructors at my DZ had a debate on what to teach the students in regards to a two out situation. They use a static line first jump course. I was wondering if anyone has had, seen, or heard of some one having two canopies out on a static line jump. If so what was the cause.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jul 23, 2012, 9:54 PM
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Re: [castrodavidd] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

For the last decade, I have taught at DZs that issue students with 270 to 290 mains and 250 reserves.

We teach students that there are three possible outcomes with two canopies out: biplane, side-by-side and downplane.

Biplanes are the easiest to fly. Usually the reserve inflates behind the main and follows it around the sky. If the two canopies are playing well together, the less you mess with it(control inputs) the better. In the first scenario the reserve inflates before the student has touched the main steering toggles. In that case, just make gentle turns with rear (main) risers.
In scenario 1.5, the reserve inflates after the student has deployed the main steering toggles. In this case, just make gentle turns (1/4 stroke = ear height) control movements. If you keep control movements gentle, the reserve will just follow the main around the sky.

In scenario 2.0 (side-by-side) treat it similarly, grabbing an outboard rear riser on each canopy and making small control inputs.

Since you have twice as much fabric as normal, you will descend slow enough to survive the landing - without flaring. HOWEVER, flaring might mess with a stable formation, so just clamp your feet together and prepare to slide.
Side-by-sides glide much flatter than solo canopies.

Down-planes are the worst scenario - and usually the result of playing with toggles too much when you start with a biplane or side-by-side.
Down-planes are the only two-out malfunction that need to be cutaway.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 23, 2012, 9:56 PM
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Re: [castrodavidd] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Static line or otherwise you need to teach students about two-outs. If you're sending them out of the plane with two canopies, there's a chance that both of them will end up out of the container.

The AAD could misfire at any time. The reseve closing loop could break. The student might screw up and dump the reserve into a good main canopy.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jul 24, 2012, 5:17 AM
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Re: [castrodavidd] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

Two outs on static line?

I've seen it happen from a student grabbing a not-well covered RSL while groping for toggles in an inappropriate place. Or popping the reserve pin from rubbing up aggressively on the swing-up door of a 182 while on the step. But those cases were 15 years back with older gear with poorer pin protection etc.

But as Dave basically says, unless you are dispatching students on BASE gear, they can have a two out...

There are debates about some of the details of flying with two outs, that have not been resolved to everyone's satisfaction in previous arguments on dz.com. E.g., better to keep brakes set on the front canopy if things are flying fine, or to pop the brakes? But even with details not fully resolved, most countries will have a reasonable set of recommendations to follow. E.g., see the USPA SIM.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jul 24, 2012, 5:54 AM
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Re: [castrodavidd] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The instructors at my DZ had a debate on what to teach the students in regards to a two out situation. They use a static line first jump course. I was wondering if anyone has had, seen, or heard of some one having two canopies out on a static line jump. If so what was the cause.
Used to be the most common cause of 2-out with static line was AAD misfire. The old ones would sometimes fire after a couple of turns. A lot less likely nowdays.
If you want to know what to teach, first read the SIM and the IRM. Riggerrob pretty much covered that.
You didn't say what the debate was. Was it...
1. Don't bother to teach it because it won't happen?
or
2. Two different opinions on what to teach?
I know of a DZ, SL operation with SOS student gear where the concensus among Instructors is still to teach always chop the main with 2-out. No qualifiers. Because it's simpler and easier and students "don't need to know any more than that".
By the way, if those same instructors think it's OK for you to be jumping a Crossfire loaded at over 1.5 with 150 jumps, I'd question a lot of their opinions.


peek  (D 8884)

Jul 24, 2012, 6:05 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We teach students ....

All of that is almost exactly what I teach, with the addition of telling the student that there may be some situations that may call for them using their judgement and doing something slightly different.

For example, a hot day with thermals, or a windy day with obstacles, might turn a side-by-side into a downplane very low to the ground. There might be times when the additional risk of releasing the main might be worth it.


stratostar  (Student)

Jul 24, 2012, 6:06 AM
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Re: [castrodavidd] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

I have seen two out on SL before. All 3 big line backer built guys, all 3 had the reserves fire while on the step due to being so big the main lift web pulled the pins. Also seen it happen the very same way on a "modern rig" and that guy's canopy hit the tail and cut most the front line group, he rode in a spinning reserve and lived.

The first 3 had all been trained for 2 out and did as trained, with help from the radio guy.

Too many instructors these days are cutting corners on what info is to be given to a FJC in order to save time or speed up the class time, IMHO.


iowa  (D 16855)

Jul 24, 2012, 8:25 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

There is a fourth possibilty. Main reserve entanglement. All you can do with it is try to seperate the two or get one working. Never give up.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 24, 2012, 10:08 AM
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Re: [ufk22] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I know of a DZ, SL operation with SOS student gear where the concensus among Instructors is still to teach always chop the main with 2-out. No qualifiers. Because it's simpler and easier and students "don't need to know any more than that".

This is very wrong. As we have seen on youtube many times, a departing main canopy can and will snag some part of the reserve on the way out, turning two good canopies into zero good canopies.

A two-out in a bi-plane or side by side is made up of two good canopies, and once they're out, if they haven't tangled, the chances are that they won't. An open canopy is a 'closed loop' from one riser, up to the canopy, and down to the other riser. There is no way to for them to tangle, just like if you had two rings, you cannot get them to intertwine. However, once you cutaway the main, you now have one ring (the reserve) and one 'string' (the main). It's easy to see how you could tie a string around a ring.

Picture a bi-plane with the main in front. If you cutaway, the main lines, risers, toggles, and RSL hardward all will be dragged up and over the nose of the reserve, and I can't see that as being good.

In terms of what the student needs to know about a two-out, there's a simple qualifier for a cutaway. Of course, the downplane is what needs to be cutaway as you can't land a downplane, so the rule for students can be as simple as 'if the canopies are touching, don't cutaway, if they are seperated, you can cutaway'.

Even if the downplane isn't fully formed, any seperation of the two canopies will facilitate a 'clean' cutaway.


castrodavidd  (C 33299)

Jul 25, 2012, 12:40 AM
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Re: [ufk22] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

The debate was over every instructor having their own opinion. Not being one of them I watched while forming my own. In the case of a first jump student on a static line, AADs are off or not installed, I thought as a whole it would be better to do nothing, ie leave the brakes set and go along for the ride. Teaching them "at first" to only chop if it down planes. The keep it simple stupid method. To complicate the standardization in this procedure this DZ still has some rigs with round reserves. Hence my go for a ride idea. PS. I'm doing just fine on my X-Fire


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jul 25, 2012, 7:03 AM
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Re: [castrodavidd] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In the case of a first jump student on a static line, AADs are off or not installed,
You're saying that the S/L students DON'T have active AADs for their first jump???


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jul 25, 2012, 8:08 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I know of a DZ, SL operation with SOS student gear where the concensus among Instructors is still to teach always chop the main with 2-out. No qualifiers. Because it's simpler and easier and students "don't need to know any more than that".

This is very wrong. As we have seen on youtube many times, a departing main canopy can and will snag some part of the reserve on the way out, turning two good canopies into zero good canopies.

A two-out in a bi-plane or side by side is made up of two good canopies, and once they're out, if they haven't tangled, the chances are that they won't. An open canopy is a 'closed loop' from one riser, up to the canopy, and down to the other riser. There is no way to for them to tangle, just like if you had two rings, you cannot get them to intertwine. However, once you cutaway the main, you now have one ring (the reserve) and one 'string' (the main). It's easy to see how you could tie a string around a ring.

Picture a bi-plane with the main in front. If you cutaway, the main lines, risers, toggles, and RSL hardward all will be dragged up and over the nose of the reserve, and I can't see that as being good.

In terms of what the student needs to know about a two-out, there's a simple qualifier for a cutaway. Of course, the downplane is what needs to be cutaway as you can't land a downplane, so the rule for students can be as simple as 'if the canopies are touching, don't cutaway, if they are seperated, you can cutaway'.

Even if the downplane isn't fully formed, any seperation of the two canopies will facilitate a 'clean' cutaway.
I'm not saying I agree with what they're teaching, just that it's still happening in some places.....


imfromwales  (C License)

Jul 25, 2012, 9:00 AM
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Re: [ufk22] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

I had two out on first jump!

rolled onto back and the static line caught reserve pin somehow and got two out. didnt have anywhere enough knowledge to know what to do so i didnt do anything and just tried to land it.

hard landing on the runway.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Jul 25, 2012, 10:57 AM
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Re: [imfromwales] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I had two out on first jump!

rolled onto back and the static line caught reserve pin somehow and got two out. didnt have anywhere enough knowledge to know what to do so i didnt do anything and just tried to land it.

hard landing on the runway.

What kind of main and reserve were you on?


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Jul 25, 2012, 3:17 PM
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Re: [castrodavidd] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't actually "see" it, but I had to put it back together after it happened. I talked with the FJC instructor who was also the J/M on the jump.

First time S/L student was pretty much convinced that the main wouldn't open properly. Asked about failure rates, went over EPs in the hanging harness a bunch of extra times, that kind of behavior.

On exit, the main opened fine. It's a direct-bag S/L rig. Reliable as it gets.
Student semi-panicked, grabbed the reserve handle (SOS system) and pulled it just a little. Just enough to pull the reserve pin, but not enough to pull the cutaway cables out of the 3-rings.

Two out. One a 288 Manta, the reserve a PD 218 IIRC. Poor guy floated about 2 miles before he landed in a big open field. The radio guy and a few others jumped in a car and took off after him, giving instructions all the way. Toggles on both stayed stowed, they had him use very small rear riser inputs (don't remember which canopy) to steer. No flare, he barely needed to do a PLF.

He was fine.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jul 25, 2012, 3:23 PM
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Student semi-panicked, grabbed the reserve handle (SOS system) and pulled it just a little. Just enough to pull the reserve pin, but not enough to pull the cutaway cables out of the 3-rings.

IF that really was the case, then that SOS system doesn't sound well adjusted -- if a student pulls only partially, it should cut away first, and rely on the RSL to pop the reserve if the student doesn't follow through far enough to move the reserve ripcord.


castrodavidd  (C 33299)

Jul 25, 2012, 7:17 PM
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Re: [ufk22] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

You're saying that the S/L students DON'T have active AADs for their first jump??? Yes


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jul 26, 2012, 6:16 AM
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Re: [castrodavidd] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You're saying that the S/L students DON'T have active AADs for their first jump??? Yes
Any reason why??


castrodavidd  (C 33299)

Jul 26, 2012, 9:21 AM
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Re: [ufk22] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

To lower the risk of a two out, caused by a aad firing with a main deployed. The student is going to get a canopy. If the main is bad, cutting away will activate the reserve through the RSL. The worst case would be a Staic line in tow. We teach our students rleft hand on your reserve handle right hand on your head. Only when the SLI sees this will he cut the static line. If the student is unable or unwilling the SLI will climb down the SL hold on to the student rig with on hand and cut the SL with the other. Activating the students reserve once clear.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 26, 2012, 9:37 AM
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Re: [castrodavidd] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To lower the risk of a two out, caused by a aad firing with a main deployed. The student is going to get a canopy. If the main is bad, cutting away will activate the reserve through the RSL. The worst case would be a Staic line in tow. We teach our students rleft hand on your reserve handle right hand on your head. Only when the SLI sees this will he cut the static line. If the student is unable or unwilling the SLI will climb down the SL hold on to the student rig with on hand and cut the SL with the other. Activating the students reserve once clear.

Is your DZ a USPA GM?


racerman  (C 18409)

Jul 26, 2012, 9:53 AM
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Re: [theonlyski] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a dz stuck in the 60's. The main canopies are so old and worn you can see daylight through the fabric. Snapped A lines are not uncommon. This is a USPA GM dropzone!


dthames  (B 37674)

Jul 26, 2012, 10:31 AM
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Re: [racerman] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is a dz stuck in the 60's. The main canopies are so old and worn you can see daylight through the fabric. Snapped A lines are not uncommon. This is a USPA GM dropzone!

I did some student jump there. I thought the training was very good and while the equipment was a bit old, it appeared very serviceable to me.


racerman  (C 18409)

Jul 26, 2012, 11:49 AM
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Re: [dthames] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

As a new jumper how would you know servicable from un-servicalbe? They do a great job training and are the friendliest group of folks. However the gear needed to be replaced years ago The poster states that they're still using round reserves! Didn't USPA change the BSR's over 30 years ago to require Ram Air reserves for students?


dragon2  (D 101989)

Jul 26, 2012, 1:20 PM
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Re: [castrodavidd] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The student is going to get a canopy. If the main is bad, cutting away will activate the reserve through the RSL.

The student is not guaranteed anopening with SL! A SL can break ya know. Or may no tbe hooked up properly, so instant freefall in both cases.

Relying on the RSL to get the reserve out?

Yikes.

And why would the AAD even fire if you say a student is "guaranteed" a main? Only 2 reasons I can think of:
1) the student is going through AAD activation hight with a seriously malfunctioning canopy, in which case you'll be glad he has an AAD to get more fabric out, because said student has spent way too long already without pulling the reserve himself
or 2) the student is spiraling through AAD activation hight, something they should not be doing anyway and you can teach them not to.


dthames  (B 37674)

Jul 26, 2012, 3:56 PM
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Re: [racerman] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As a new jumper how would you know servicable from un-servicalbe? They do a great job training and are the friendliest group of folks. However the gear needed to be replaced years ago The poster states that they're still using round reserves! Didn't USPA change the BSR's over 30 years ago to require Ram Air reserves for students?


Contrary to popular belief (on DZ.com) you do not automatically lose half your brain when you make your first jump and then slowly grow it back as your jump numbers increase.


(This post was edited by dthames on Jul 26, 2012, 3:58 PM)


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