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Begginer doubt while flying

 


Porto  (C 40012)

Jul 17, 2012, 10:29 AM
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Begginer doubt while flying Can't Post

Hi! I am starting to fly with a S-Fly indy and in the last two jumps once I lost relative wind I started to make a strange-vertical movement (like head down-head up-head down-head up)...
Can anybody tell me why?
Thanks!!


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jul 17, 2012, 10:36 AM
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Re: [Porto] Begginer doubt while flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi! I am starting to fly with a S-Fly indy and in the last two jumps once I lost relative wind I started to make a strange-vertical movement (like head down-head up-head down-head up)...
Can anybody tell me why?
Thanks!!

Sounds like stall. Let the suite fly! Close your arm wing a bit smaller 1/2 or 2/3 and pick up speed and fly.


roostnureye  (D 32166)

Jul 17, 2012, 11:53 AM
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Re: [Porto] Begginer doubt while flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Potato chipping is what this is called... Agreed with^ phoenixflyr, dont try and tension the wings like a starfish, stay relaxed, arms 2/3 extended. You will figure it out with time, keep your head low on the horizon, dont look up.


(This post was edited by roostnureye on Jul 17, 2012, 2:36 PM)


iFlockSDC  (D License)

Jul 17, 2012, 1:12 PM
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Re: [roostnureye] Begginer doubt while flying [In reply to] Can't Post

This is very small suit and to make it fly stable you need more speed. this doesn't mean you need to extend your arms all way out, but good delta position and putting your chin down will do the trick.

Could be a good beginners suit if your goal is to learn aerobatics .. no so much for flocking or performance flying.

Welcome the skies .. Caw ..caw ..


Porto  (C 40012)

Jul 17, 2012, 1:53 PM
Post #5 of 13 (1609 views)
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Re: [Porto] Begginer doubt while flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks!! I will try to follow your advices. if not, I will try the S-fly expert that I found a used one and I wanted to try after a few jumps with this.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jul 17, 2012, 3:35 PM
Post #6 of 13 (1567 views)
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Re: [Porto] Begginer doubt while flying [In reply to] Can't Post

The Indy is an outstanding suit to begin wingsuit flight.
It's also a fine suit for *most* flocking, unless you're flying with guys in big suits that genuinely know how to fly em.

You might try this;
Put down a creeper. Lie down on it so that your chest is over the "Y" usually used for legs.
Put your head, palms up/back of hands and toes on the ground.
Inhale deeply, hold it for a moment, exhale slowly.
Let your body relax. Sink into the creeper.
Try to fall asleep on the creeper. It's really that relaxed. In reality, the wind will push your arms farther back than they'll be when on the creeper.
The bigger goal is to discover the relaxation.

This is the position you want to fly.
You do want the arms extended out, not pulled inward. You also want the tail spread.

However, your arms and legs are merely a relaxed framework for the wings.
If you are rigid and forcing the wing/tail to be as tight as possible, you're like a rock skipping on water and eventually you'll go unstable and fall out of the sky. If you potato-chip, it's the result of wind hitting your chest and then the tail as your body rocks. Bringing the knees and head slightly down will help create stabiilty (position you're in on the creeper while relaxed.

Keeping your head low (as it was on the creeper) will help create stability; this suit does well with a steeper angle. Look at your toes. Think about breathing slowly while you fly.

The attached illustration might help a bit. Notice the flatness of the chest/pelvis area.
Attachments: stable2.gif (95.1 KB)


Porto  (C 40012)

Jul 18, 2012, 3:00 AM
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Re: [DSE] Begginer doubt while flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Great answer man,
thanks!!
Smile


Titanium_Gecko  (C 102337)

Jul 19, 2012, 9:18 AM
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Re: [Porto] Begginer doubt while flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Porto,

+1 to everything DSE said - I went through the same thing in the Access in 2009.

Take a moment to breath and relax in flight then think "work your legs" and "work your arms" (i.e. shoulders and upper arms only) - Your head is the accelerator (downwards) and key to forward speed.

An alternative to the "creeper-based position practice" is as Zun would show you and I have used teaching with the INDY is as follows:

1) Stand facing an open door way with your feet about 12" back from the door sill
2) Legs apart as if in the suit
3) Arms out as if in the suit with palms facing forward
4) Stand up on your toes
5) Lean forward towards the door frame such that it is your upper arm resting on the R & L verticals of the door frame
6) Check that your arms are still in line with your torso and torso in line with your legs. You should be working you core/stomach to help hold you in a board like position, pushing up on your toes with straight legs, BUT ultimately your head is lower than your feet. And your chest is a bit pushed out or rather down in the air.

In the INDY you have the large diagonal zip, which you should be able to feel/see the tension on (in the air and on the ground) when you work your whole body from toes to shoulder.

Other point to note: If your core/stomach is a bit weak (just you not working it rather than stength capability), you can get your pelvis moving around in the suit causing a bit of washing from side-to-side in the air.

I'll try and upload some photos in a bit.

Edit - You are in my opinion trying to be flat, in line and head low and don't what to get into the habbit of becoming de-arched or cupped as will loose forward speed making it more difficult to fly with others.

Enjoy


(This post was edited by Titanium_Gecko on Jul 19, 2012, 9:21 AM)


Titanium_Gecko  (C 102337)

Jul 19, 2012, 9:34 AM
Post #9 of 13 (1375 views)
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Re: [Titanium_Gecko] Begginer doubt while flying [In reply to] Can't Post

See attached photo to describe this Door Practice Position.

Cheers,
Ross
Attachments: S-Fly Position.jpg (70.1 KB)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jul 19, 2012, 11:03 AM
Post #10 of 13 (1348 views)
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Re: [Titanium_Gecko] Begginer doubt while flying [In reply to] Can't Post

didn't consider the "door" position, it's another really good training method, and helps prevent the cup. We also do this on the instructor's shoulders. Thanks for the pix! That third one of the hands is really great.
More people need to fly the Indy so they understand the "cupped arm" doesn't work so well.


5.samadhi

Jul 20, 2012, 3:24 AM
Post #11 of 13 (1268 views)
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Re: [DSE] Begginer doubt while flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
didn't consider the "door" position, it's another really good training method, and helps prevent the cup. We also do this on the instructor's shoulders. Thanks for the pix! That third one of the hands is really great.
More people need to fly the Indy so they understand the "cupped arm" doesn't work so well.
can you describe more what "prevents the cup" means? Does that relate to other brands of suits or is it specific to this type of suit?

awesome posts so far


Titanium_Gecko  (C 102337)

Jul 20, 2012, 3:31 PM
Post #12 of 13 (1180 views)
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Re: [Titanium_Gecko] Begginer doubt while flying [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S_pZo903d0

Between about 5min to 6m10s, you'll see a couple of different Indy novices. Before that some of the same guys in the Access.

First rocking a bit, head up, air hitting the chest with bent legs and arms starting to come in like a flat jumper (admittedly waiting for pull time).

Second flying really flat, head low with lots of speed.

Some of them were really quick on the camp straight from the door...lol.


Anyways - Door Position II....

You can expand your position practice to include pusing down and pushing up with your chest, without moving the rest of your body - Really pushing your sternum down or back up into your spine. This changes the cross-sectional shape of your body (i.e. side view), which with your forward speed through the air gives you the ability to pop-up or move down relative to someone as shown by some of the beginners.

You can also practice flat turns, such that in the air looking ahead of you to the horizon you scan your eyes/head around to start and then, if necessary, push down with a shoulder L or R to go L or R. In the door frame you can feel just pushing a shoulder in without moving anything else (i.e. you are still flat with every thing in line "working your arms" and "working your legs" and core).

Misc.....
You'll see a bit of flexing from the middle, like using a mono flipper I surpose, in some of the other clips, which you can manage by really trying to work the suit shoulder to toes through you core ~7m30s

Ditto a bit of leg waggling at the knees or toe flicking at the feet, which along with all this things about arms, core, legs and even head are related to proprioception (i.e. awareness of where all your body parts are in relation to each other).

Everyone's body awareness is different and not dependant on previous skydiving experience in my opinion although helpful. For example some people will automatically lock out their legs when they point their toes others will need to made a concious decision to lock their knees to get and keep a straight leg.

Hence, the combined use of ground exercies (just like repetition learning your original skydiving drills) and lots of time in the suit are really important. Let alone taking the time to relax/breath in the air and feel how your body is flying and "work" your body's muscles.

Ross

Edit - Typos & Gramma.


(This post was edited by Titanium_Gecko on Jul 20, 2012, 3:53 PM)


Titanium_Gecko  (C 102337)

Jul 20, 2012, 3:48 PM
Post #13 of 13 (1175 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Begginer doubt while flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Preventing the cup???

For me there's the arm becoming "cupped" as if you start to bring your hand in to look at your alti like a flat jumper so the elbow drops back - Like the "box" or "mantis" flat position. Your arm and leading edge of the suit then cup the air at the elbow, dirsupting the shape of the leading edge and affecting the overall performance of the wing.

Having your arm/wing out completely and finding a way of locking out your elbow (e.g. fingers pointing back) or simply rolling it over helping to create a stronger leading edge, in my opinion. The S-Fly suits or PF Shadow flown palm down, the former with a lock, and the PF Phantom or BM Blade the latter with a roll so that again you are working your shoulders and upper arms with hand, elbow and shoulder in line. The forearm, wrist and hand more relaxed supporting the shape of the wing.

Ross

Ross



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