Jul 10, 2012, 8:55 PM
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Re: [stayhigh] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears??
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If I did it again I'd hook it, plain out and then slide as it slowed down. I did a straight in on a 145 Alpha (Cobalt before they screwed them up) stalled it and busted my ass.
Jul 10, 2012, 9:06 PM
Post #3 of 69
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Re: [stayhigh] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears??
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I can't speak for every canopy, but for the following the answer is "yes": Velocity 111, Vengeance 135, Triathlon 160, Lightning 160, Spectre 170, Navigator 260, Ace 280, and probably a couple of others I can't remember. I wasn't dumb to try and there is no story to tell.
(This post was edited by indyz on Jul 10, 2012, 9:06 PM)
Jul 10, 2012, 9:18 PM
Post #4 of 69
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Re: [indyz] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears??
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I can't speak for every canopy, but for the following the answer is "yes": Velocity 111, Vengeance 135, Triathlon 160, Lightning 160, Spectre 170, Navigator 260, Ace 280, and probably a couple of others I can't remember. I wasn't dumb to try and there is no story to tell.
Jul 10, 2012, 10:59 PM
Post #5 of 69
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Re: [stayhigh] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears??
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I have seen a first jump student land standing up on rears after a mis-rigged toggle fell off. I have also seen a fourth jump student stand up on rears after misunderstanding instructions for canopy tasks. He was supposed to retake toggles after 2000 ft but just kept steering and eventually flared with rears.
Jul 10, 2012, 11:40 PM
Post #6 of 69
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Re: [stayhigh] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears??
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Coming in straight in? at full flight.
Not talking about big turns to gain speed/lift here. and Who was dumb enough to try this and tell me your story.
I believe this is (or at least was) taught to students at the New Zealand school that is often discussed on these forums (based on conversations I had with one of the previous main instructors at the school... a guy with close to 20,000 jumps (and a skydiving pedegree most people can't come close to) and who told me that it is a core skill that most skydivers don't possess. Must be dumb I guess.
Jul 11, 2012, 6:16 AM
Post #11 of 69
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Re: [stayhigh] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears??
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I'm not sure that landing on rears is a dumb thing to do. I've never done it... and it is something that I need to add to my canopy skills tool box.
I'm not a swooper and never will be. So why do I need to do this? My current plan for a broken steering line is to cut away, assuming I'm above my decision altitude when I discover that it is broken. What if I'm at 500 feet when it breaks?
Practicing it up high and then doing it under controlled conditions isn't dumb. Risky, perhaps, but not dumb. Dumb is what I and many others are already doing - hoping that we never find ourselves in a situation where we have to flare using only our rears.
Jul 11, 2012, 6:40 AM
Post #12 of 69
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears??
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Could someone that has a clue explain the aerodynamics of the sudden stall when using the rears? Is it the difference in the rate of change of the critical angle that causes it?
Jul 11, 2012, 6:50 AM
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Re: [skybytch] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears??
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I can see the value of practicing it up high to get a feel for how the canopy behaves, so that you have some expectation of what will happen close to the ground if you need to land on rears.
However, for an average non-swooper, is actually landing on rears the first time substantially safer when you are doing it deliberately, compared to when circumstances force you to?
IOW, is the cumulative risk you expose yourself in order to learn to land on rears at some level of competence worth the reduction in risk of injury when you subsequently are forced to do it?
Jul 11, 2012, 7:08 AM
Post #14 of 69
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Re: [Divalent] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears??
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However, for an average non-swooper, is actually landing on rears the first time substantially safer when you are doing it deliberately, compared to when circumstances force you to?
Hopefully, yes. My intent is to practice it up high and then try it under controlled conditions - ie with a steady 5-ish wind and into the pea gravel, probably on a hop and pop.
The breeze will reduce my forward speed (making me more confident), the peas will reduce potential impact (making me more confident should I stall it) and having no one else in the air will allow me to focus on what I'm doing. The only one of these variables that I can control in a situation where I HAVE to land with rears is where I land.
The first time I HAVE to land with rears, I'd much rather have the confidence that comes with having done it before as I'm coming in on final.
USPA's B license canopy course requires that jumpers plan and execute a deliberate crosswind approach and landing. Done incorrectly, a crosswind landing could cause injury. They also want jumpers to land from half brakes - ie a controlled crash that can easily result in injury. Apparently the risks involved in doing those things under controlled conditions are outweighed by the value of having done them under controlled conditions prior to HAVING to do them on a "fun" jump.
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IOW, is the cumulative risk you expose yourself in order to learn to land on rears at some level of competence worth the reduction in risk of injury when you subsequently are forced to do it?
Since it's not required that anybody ever land on rears (you could choose to not flare should you lose a steering line), I think the risk/reward decision is a personal one on this.
Jul 11, 2012, 9:12 AM
Post #18 of 69
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Re: [stayhigh] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears??
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Coming in straight in? at full flight.
Not talking about big turns to gain speed/lift here. and Who was dumb enough to try this and tell me your story
If you are properly wingloaded it is not a big deal.
For the record 95+% of my langings under my sport main are on rears only.... The only times I don't land on rears are when the wind is gusty/bumpy or I bail out onto toggles.
Jul 11, 2012, 9:12 AM
Post #19 of 69
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears??
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Could someone that has a clue explain the aerodynamics of the sudden stall when using the rears? Is it the difference in the rate of change of the critical angle that causes it?
If I understand your question correctly, you're asking why the stall is more sudden on rears than toggles, right?
It's because of the difference in how the canopy is distorted by the different control input. Toggles are attached to the very back of the canopy and only pull down on the tail. Rears are attached to the back half (more or less) of the canopy and pull down a lot more of the surface area.
Toggles give a lot more precise control than rears, so you don't have the "exactness" when using the rears and can stall it unintentionally.
Crank a turn using the toggles, and then try one with just rears. That will give you an idea of how the different control inputs make the canopy react differently.
At least that's how I understand it. If I have something wrong, I welcome correction.
Jul 11, 2012, 9:50 AM
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Re: [normiss] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears??
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You're outta control!
Yes, but with the full face you can't see the panic look on my face
In truth, this was taught to me back in the 90's by Aggie who works at Sunpath. He used to do it all the time and until then I had no idea it could be done.
Jul 11, 2012, 12:13 PM
Post #25 of 69
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Re: [Divalent] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears??
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I can see the value of practicing it up high to get a feel for how the canopy behaves, so that you have some expectation of what will happen close to the ground if you need to land on rears.
However, for an average non-swooper, is actually landing on rears the first time substantially safer when you are doing it deliberately, compared to when circumstances force you to?
IOW, is the cumulative risk you expose yourself in order to learn to land on rears at some level of competence worth the reduction in risk of injury when you subsequently are forced to do it?
This is a point I made in another post in which many people encouraged riser landings for practice.
Other than swooping, I have landed on rears only twice, both times on an Excalibur with broken steering lines. I had never even steered with my rears, let alone landed with them. All I did was what riser landing proponents say should be done for practice. I made several practice flares up top to be sure I wouldn't stall the canopy, then repeated the same action for landing while performing a PLF.
Being able to land on rears is definitely a useful skill. So is being able to muster up a PLF good enough to land a streamering reserve and live, but we don't practice it.
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