Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Can you have soft stand up landing on rears??

 

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stayhigh  (F 111)

Jul 10, 2012, 8:37 PM
Post #1 of 69 (3143 views)
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Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? Can't Post

Coming in straight in? at full flight.

Not talking about big turns to gain speed/lift here.
and
Who was dumb enough to try this and tell me your story.


(This post was edited by stayhigh on Jul 10, 2012, 11:09 PM)


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jul 10, 2012, 8:55 PM
Post #2 of 69 (3097 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

If I did it again I'd hook it, plain out and then slide as it slowed down. I did a straight in on a 145 Alpha (Cobalt before they screwed them up) stalled it and busted my ass.


indyz  (D 28525)

Jul 10, 2012, 9:06 PM
Post #3 of 69 (3090 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't speak for every canopy, but for the following the answer is "yes": Velocity 111, Vengeance 135, Triathlon 160, Lightning 160, Spectre 170, Navigator 260, Ace 280, and probably a couple of others I can't remember. I wasn't dumb to try and there is no story to tell.


(This post was edited by indyz on Jul 10, 2012, 9:06 PM)


wildcard451  (D License)

Jul 10, 2012, 9:18 PM
Post #4 of 69 (3080 views)
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Re: [indyz] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I can't speak for every canopy, but for the following the answer is "yes": Velocity 111, Vengeance 135, Triathlon 160, Lightning 160, Spectre 170, Navigator 260, Ace 280, and probably a couple of others I can't remember. I wasn't dumb to try and there is no story to tell.

This.

OP: You're doing it wrong.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Jul 10, 2012, 10:59 PM
Post #5 of 69 (3041 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have seen a first jump student land standing up on rears after a mis-rigged toggle fell off. I have also seen a fourth jump student stand up on rears after misunderstanding instructions for canopy tasks. He was supposed to retake toggles after 2000 ft but just kept steering and eventually flared with rears.


mik  (D 11111)

Jul 10, 2012, 11:40 PM
Post #6 of 69 (3030 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Coming in straight in? at full flight.

Not talking about big turns to gain speed/lift here.
and
Who was dumb enough to try this and tell me your story.

I believe this is (or at least was) taught to students at the New Zealand school that is often discussed on these forums (based on conversations I had with one of the previous main instructors at the school... a guy with close to 20,000 jumps (and a skydiving pedegree most people can't come close to) and who told me that it is a core skill that most skydivers don't possess. Must be dumb I guess. Unsure


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Jul 11, 2012, 12:42 AM
Post #7 of 69 (3005 views)
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Re: [indyz] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I landed my Vision 150 @ 1.5 on rear risers a few times just to see, and it behaved very well.

Great canopy, shame about the openings Pirate

My Pilot 132 @ 1.7 seems harder to get right, only tried it once and got dirty. But I'm 100% sure it's possible.

This is in line with JohnSherman's comment earlier about trim, I guess.


Abedy  (D 10153)

Jul 11, 2012, 12:48 AM
Post #8 of 69 (3003 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

A pic I filed away some years ago, a Katana with broken toggle tine. Landed standing as far as I see it.
Attachments: Katanalandung_ohne_Toggles.jpg (100 KB)


FreefallSnoopy  (B 38624)

Jul 11, 2012, 1:02 AM
Post #9 of 69 (2996 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In a field full of pillows, everytime Sly


normiss  (D 28356)

Jul 11, 2012, 5:57 AM
Post #10 of 69 (2904 views)
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Re: [wildcard451] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

^THIS
Cool


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jul 11, 2012, 6:16 AM
Post #11 of 69 (2897 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure that landing on rears is a dumb thing to do. I've never done it... and it is something that I need to add to my canopy skills tool box.

I'm not a swooper and never will be. So why do I need to do this? My current plan for a broken steering line is to cut away, assuming I'm above my decision altitude when I discover that it is broken. What if I'm at 500 feet when it breaks?

Practicing it up high and then doing it under controlled conditions isn't dumb. Risky, perhaps, but not dumb. Dumb is what I and many others are already doing - hoping that we never find ourselves in a situation where we have to flare using only our rears.


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Jul 11, 2012, 6:40 AM
Post #12 of 69 (2876 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Could someone that has a clue explain the aerodynamics of the sudden stall when using the rears? Is it the difference in the rate of change of the critical angle that causes it?


Divalent  (C 40494)

Jul 11, 2012, 6:50 AM
Post #13 of 69 (2868 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can see the value of practicing it up high to get a feel for how the canopy behaves, so that you have some expectation of what will happen close to the ground if you need to land on rears.

However, for an average non-swooper, is actually landing on rears the first time substantially safer when you are doing it deliberately, compared to when circumstances force you to?

IOW, is the cumulative risk you expose yourself in order to learn to land on rears at some level of competence worth the reduction in risk of injury when you subsequently are forced to do it?


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jul 11, 2012, 7:08 AM
Post #14 of 69 (2859 views)
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Re: [Divalent] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
However, for an average non-swooper, is actually landing on rears the first time substantially safer when you are doing it deliberately, compared to when circumstances force you to?

Hopefully, yes. My intent is to practice it up high and then try it under controlled conditions - ie with a steady 5-ish wind and into the pea gravel, probably on a hop and pop.

The breeze will reduce my forward speed (making me more confident), the peas will reduce potential impact (making me more confident should I stall it) and having no one else in the air will allow me to focus on what I'm doing. The only one of these variables that I can control in a situation where I HAVE to land with rears is where I land.

The first time I HAVE to land with rears, I'd much rather have the confidence that comes with having done it before as I'm coming in on final.

USPA's B license canopy course requires that jumpers plan and execute a deliberate crosswind approach and landing. Done incorrectly, a crosswind landing could cause injury. They also want jumpers to land from half brakes - ie a controlled crash that can easily result in injury. Apparently the risks involved in doing those things under controlled conditions are outweighed by the value of having done them under controlled conditions prior to HAVING to do them on a "fun" jump.

In reply to:
IOW, is the cumulative risk you expose yourself in order to learn to land on rears at some level of competence worth the reduction in risk of injury when you subsequently are forced to do it?

Since it's not required that anybody ever land on rears (you could choose to not flare should you lose a steering line), I think the risk/reward decision is a personal one on this.


Halfpastniner  (D 30747)

Jul 11, 2012, 7:13 AM
Post #15 of 69 (2852 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Plenty of times under katana's and velos. The secret? Do it on days with a stiff headwind!


DaVinciflies

Jul 11, 2012, 8:46 AM
Post #16 of 69 (2809 views)
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Re: [Halfpastniner] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Plenty of times under katana's and velos. The secret? Do it on days with a stiff headwind!

This.

Soft landings involve:

a) eliminating/reducing vertical speed as much as possible
b) eliminating/reducing horizontal groundspeed as far as possible

Rears are great at (a) but less effective at (b) than toggles are.

Therefore using a good breeze to achieve (b) a soft stand-up landing on rears is certainly possible.


SkyPiggie  (D License)

Jul 11, 2012, 8:49 AM
Post #17 of 69 (2806 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes. Degree of difficulty depending upon wing-loading and headwind.


(This post was edited by SkyPiggie on Jul 11, 2012, 8:52 AM)


Ron

Jul 11, 2012, 9:12 AM
Post #18 of 69 (2789 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Coming in straight in? at full flight.

Not talking about big turns to gain speed/lift here.
and
Who was dumb enough to try this and tell me your story

If you are properly wingloaded it is not a big deal.

For the record 95+% of my langings under my sport main are on rears only.... The only times I don't land on rears are when the wind is gusty/bumpy or I bail out onto toggles.
Attachments: image.jpeg (112 KB)


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Jul 11, 2012, 9:12 AM
Post #19 of 69 (2787 views)
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Could someone that has a clue explain the aerodynamics of the sudden stall when using the rears? Is it the difference in the rate of change of the critical angle that causes it?

If I understand your question correctly, you're asking why the stall is more sudden on rears than toggles, right?

It's because of the difference in how the canopy is distorted by the different control input. Toggles are attached to the very back of the canopy and only pull down on the tail. Rears are attached to the back half (more or less) of the canopy and pull down a lot more of the surface area.

Toggles give a lot more precise control than rears, so you don't have the "exactness" when using the rears and can stall it unintentionally.

Crank a turn using the toggles, and then try one with just rears. That will give you an idea of how the different control inputs make the canopy react differently.

At least that's how I understand it. If I have something wrong, I welcome correction.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jul 11, 2012, 9:29 AM
Post #20 of 69 (2768 views)
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Re: [Ron] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

You're outta control!
Cool


Ron

Jul 11, 2012, 9:50 AM
Post #21 of 69 (2754 views)
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Re: [normiss] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You're outta control!
Cool

Yes, but with the full face you can't see the panic look on my face Wink

In truth, this was taught to me back in the 90's by Aggie who works at Sunpath. He used to do it all the time and until then I had no idea it could be done.


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Jul 11, 2012, 11:12 AM
Post #22 of 69 (2705 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

No my question was "is it the rate of change of the critical angle that causes it?"

I guess the correct question should have been... is it the difference in rate of change to the critical angle of attack that causes it?


DaVinciflies

Jul 11, 2012, 11:41 AM
Post #23 of 69 (2687 views)
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

When you say "causes it" what exactly is "it"?

Are you asking why it is more sudden, or why it occurs with less input or at a higher speed?

Not being difficult here - just trying to define exactly your question.


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Jul 11, 2012, 12:00 PM
Post #24 of 69 (2672 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

....explain the aerodynamics of the sudden stall when using the rears...


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 11, 2012, 12:13 PM
Post #25 of 69 (2657 views)
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Re: [Divalent] Can you have soft stand up landing on rears?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I can see the value of practicing it up high to get a feel for how the canopy behaves, so that you have some expectation of what will happen close to the ground if you need to land on rears.

However, for an average non-swooper, is actually landing on rears the first time substantially safer when you are doing it deliberately, compared to when circumstances force you to?

IOW, is the cumulative risk you expose yourself in order to learn to land on rears at some level of competence worth the reduction in risk of injury when you subsequently are forced to do it?

This is a point I made in another post in which many people encouraged riser landings for practice.

Other than swooping, I have landed on rears only twice, both times on an Excalibur with broken steering lines. I had never even steered with my rears, let alone landed with them. All I did was what riser landing proponents say should be done for practice. I made several practice flares up top to be sure I wouldn't stall the canopy, then repeated the same action for landing while performing a PLF.

Being able to land on rears is definitely a useful skill. So is being able to muster up a PLF good enough to land a streamering reserve and live, but we don't practice it.


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