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Rear riser landings?

 

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shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 9, 2012, 5:51 AM
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Rear riser landings? Can't Post

I'm sorry but our S&T left the other day for a better paying gig. And sadly i forgot to ask him before he left.

How should a N00B practice rear riser landings? And are they safe?


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jul 9, 2012, 6:03 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

A noob should take a canopy control course.


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 9, 2012, 6:07 AM
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Re: [skybytch] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

I took Mr. Germains class 2 years ago. But looking at my notes we talked about how to use rear risers but I dont see anything in my notes about landings.


DaVinciflies

Jul 9, 2012, 6:07 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

As with most canopy skills, the way to start is up high. Get a feel for how far you need to pull down/out on the rears to get the canopy to plane out.

Also, get lots of practice on where the stall point is on the rears. This is the big danger in landing on rears as the stall will happen at a higher speed than a toggle stall.

In general, the rears are going to flatten out the glide of the canopy without slowing it down as much, so it is a good idea to do your first rear riser landings into a good headwind (12-15mph) and be prepared to either PLF or slide out the landing.

Finally, ALWAYS keep your toggles in your hands and don't be afraid to bail on the rears and finish the flare with the toggles if you don't feel comfortable (it's ok to just drop the rears and go to toggles).

Yes, it's safe - if you don't fuck it up! And I believe it's a good skill to practice. It's one of my essential skills to master on a new canopy.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 9, 2012, 6:13 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm sorry but our S&T left the other day for a better paying gig. And sadly i forgot to ask him before he left.

How should a N00B practice rear riser landings? And are they safe?

Rear riser landings *can* be done safely, but that doesn't make them "safe." Being that landing mistakes account for a significant amount of death and injuries in our sport, changing from a standard pattern landing with a proper toggle flare increases the danger of the landing.

One of the absolute best ways to get used to flying your canopy with your rears is proximity flying with a very experienced canopy pilot at high altitudes. Through a series of drill dives a jumper can go from no rear input to understanding how the rear risers can change your canopy's flight characteristics.

Much like how a jumper has learned how to use toggles, it takes time and practice. It also takes understanding on how to practice. That practice starts with rear riser stalls. Then comparing how the rear riser can cause the canopy to stall compared to how the canopy reacts when the same is done with the toggles.

Then the jumper would move on to understanding and seeing how a flare sequence works and reacts when using the toggles, then compares this to attempting the same using the rear risers.

A good canopy coach can take you through this process and you'll learn more about your canopy than just how to land on your rears. You'll learn some important details about how your canopy flies.

Or you could do what I'm sure someone will say, wait for a decent ground wind and just go for it, which is not really the best or safest way to do it.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 9, 2012, 6:16 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I took Mr. Germains class 2 years ago. But looking at my notes we talked about how to use rear risers but I dont see anything in my notes about landings.

How many jumps did you do in that course that were specific drill dives and with a video debrief?

Regardless, 2 years is a long time, especially for someone with a low jump tempo and a low amount of experience. There are some specific canopy coaches around the country that I would highly recommend, but for a blanket statement I can't say enough good things about the Flight-1 courses.


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 9, 2012, 6:25 AM
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Re: [AggieDave] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

AggieDave

Thank you if there is another class offered here in NJ I think I will sign up.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jul 9, 2012, 6:27 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

One of my favorites.

Thanks again BillVon.

I loved flying on nothing but rears. Tony Hathaway comes running over - "What's wrong with your canopy?" Nothing. "Why did you land on rears?" So I can and know that I can. "Huh. Great idea!"
Cool


DaVinciflies

Jul 9, 2012, 7:07 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thank you if there is another class offered here in NJ I think I will sign up.

http://flight-1.com/sport/certification/


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jul 9, 2012, 7:56 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I took Mr. Germains class 2 years ago. But looking at my notes we talked about how to use rear risers but I dont see anything in my notes about landings.

FFS That's your responseCrazyCrazyCrazyCrazyCrazy


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jul 9, 2012, 8:49 AM
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Re: [Squeak] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
FFS That's your responseCrazyCrazyCrazyCrazyCrazy

Huh?
Have the hysterical cries about taking canopy courses now turned into ones about taking a course at least once a year??


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jul 9, 2012, 9:04 AM
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Re: [pchapman] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
FFS That's your responseCrazyCrazyCrazyCrazyCrazy

Huh?
Have the hysterical cries about taking canopy courses now turned into ones about taking a course at least once a year??
a guy ( a supposedly well educated one) with 70 jumps in 3 years asks for advice on his canopy flying, a course is the recombination and his reply is "i took one 2 years ago"Crazy


(This post was edited by Squeak on Jul 9, 2012, 9:05 AM)


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 9, 2012, 9:12 AM
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Re: [pchapman] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

well it never hurts to have more education.

that and as i said i looked at my notes and didn't see anything. so i just asked.


DougH  (D License)

Jul 9, 2012, 9:24 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm sorry but our S&T left the other day for a better paying gig. And sadly i forgot to ask him before he left.

How should a N00B practice rear riser landings? And are they safe?

A NOOB, especially one that doesn't jump with any frequency, should prioritize the skills that they work on.

In my opinion rear riser landings are really low on the canopy skill priority list. They are also just like skydiving everything else in skydiving, dangerous if done incorrectly. With practice you can have safe rear riser landings, but with the incorrect procedures you can also rear riser stall your canopy smash into the ground.

Now by all means you should play up high with your rears, they are a great tool for altering your canopy's glide, but there is no real reason to be landing with them.

Some might argue that rear riser landings practice would be helpful if you have a stuck toggle, etc. At your currency I say that logic is BS, if you don't have functioning toggles on your main, you should be giving some serious thought into cutting away and going to your reserve. The less you jump the less you should be complicating things, KISS.

You are much better off spending your few jumps practicing flat turns, working on a clean landing pattern, working on accuracy, and working on braked approaches.

Get a briefing on doing a high pull (there are different considerations than a normal jump) and play with your canopy. You will get the canopy time equivalent to several fun jumps where you burn up all the altitude in free fall, and then have a canopy flight that has to be focused on primarily landing.


(This post was edited by DougH on Jul 9, 2012, 9:29 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 9, 2012, 9:41 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
well it never hurts to have more education.

that and as i said i looked at my notes and didn't see anything. so i just asked.

I agree with your first point, but in regards to your second your point, when is it during your canopy flight that you expect to be able to check your notes? What I mean by that is if you really 'learn' something, you don't need to go back and refer to your notes, and in skydiving you cannot stop and refer to your notes, so if you don't 'know' it, you didn't really 'learn' it.

About rear risers, I would agree that it should be lower on your list. Using rear risers is fun and easy up high, and you should work with them and see what the range, response, and stall are like, in case you find yourself needing to use them. If you experience a control problem with your toggles too low for a cutaway, for example, you'll need to land on your rears.

However, that's unlikely, and with that in mind actually landing on your rears is better left to later days. First off, you want to be VERY good at judging your approach to the ground before trying to land on rears. The control stroke is very short and the stall is faster than toggles and more abrupt. What that equals is a 'one-shot' deal for flaring with your rear risers. You either get it perfect, or you hit the ground hard.

Toggles have a long control stroke, and with modern canopies you can flare in stages with little to no reduction in ocerall flare performance. It's forgiving situation where your timing can be off, but still offer you a reasonable landing. Rear risers are not like that.

The other reason to hold off is that you need to be 100% 'present' to start landing with rears, and able to over-ride instinct and muscle-memory. If you 'forget' that you're landing on rears and try to flare them like you flare with toggles, you'll stall almost immediately and hit hard (this has happened many times). You want to feel so 'in control' during the landing phase that you can go agaisnt every habit you've built on every jump thus far, or you want to stay off the rears for landing.


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 9, 2012, 9:46 AM
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Re: [DougH] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Doug,
Yes I have practiced up high and was just wondering about landing.

I am still working very hard on getting the right flat turn in using my rears for final and have had good results. Same with rears making 90's

Cannopy flight is just one of those things that takes practice and lots of stupid questions.

Thank you all for the help. I will continue to work on it and seek out advice and information.


DaVinciflies

Jul 9, 2012, 10:01 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am still working very hard on getting the right flat turn in using my rears for final and have had good results.

Why are you using rears at this point in your pattern?

A better option would be to do your flat turns using toggles. This should be your default "save your arse" flat turn (with the exception of just post deployment) and the more you practice it the more likely you will, actually, be able to save your arse.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 9, 2012, 10:04 AM
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A better option would be to do your flat turns using toggles. This should be your default "save your arse" flat turn (with the exception of just post deployment) and the more you practice it the more likely you will, actually, be able to save your arse.

People never rise to the occasion.

They fall to the level of their training.


That is why we have people making stupid low turn mistakes when confronted with a problem like a near canopy collision on final.


DaVinciflies

Jul 9, 2012, 10:07 AM
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Re: [AggieDave] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
A better option would be to do your flat turns using toggles. This should be your default "save your arse" flat turn (with the exception of just post deployment) and the more you practice it the more likely you will, actually, be able to save your arse.

People never rise to the occasion.

They fall to the level of their training.


That is why we have people making stupid low turn mistakes when confronted with a problem like a near canopy collision on final.

Agreed, Dave. Just trying to help out one flat turn at a time!

I wonder who trained Shah to use rears in the pattern? I once saw someone who had got into the habit of using all rears have to unstow her brakes at flare height to use them!! (because she had been told "nobody who knows how to fly a canopy uses their toggles")


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 9, 2012, 10:09 AM
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why are you using rears at this point in your pattern?

A better option would be to do your flat turns using toggles. This should be your default "save your arse" flat turn (with the exception of just post deployment) and the more you practice it the more likely you will, actually, be able to save your arse.
You have fronts, rears and toggles.
Why not practice using all three up high and down low.

The rears have helped me extend portions of my landing pattern if i was going to be short. The fronts to give me more speed or to shorten a portion and the toggles to make flat turns when needed.

You have all these controll imputs why not learn how to use them?

***I always keep my toggles in my hands. I'm not nutty you know.


(This post was edited by shah269 on Jul 9, 2012, 10:12 AM)


DaVinciflies

Jul 9, 2012, 10:16 AM
Post #21 of 70 (3025 views)
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You have fronts, rears and toggles.
Why not practice using all three up high and down low.

[My bolding]

Dude - you need in person instruction before your next jump. I tried to be helpful but this question (minus a question mark) is serious cause for concern.

Don't jump again until you have addressed it with at least an instructor and preferably a canopy coach. Please.

ETA: I really can't decide if you're trolling. Shame on me if you are.


(This post was edited by DaVinciflies on Jul 9, 2012, 10:21 AM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Jul 9, 2012, 10:19 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not nutty you know.

Oh, I thought you were the same Shah that posts in bonfire?


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 9, 2012, 10:21 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm sorry but our S&T left the other day for a better paying gig. And sadly i forgot to ask him before he left.

How should a N00B practice rear riser landings? And are they safe?

There is no reason to practice or perform rear riser landings.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 9, 2012, 10:23 AM
Post #24 of 70 (3008 views)
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The rears have helped me extend portions of my landing pattern if i was going to be short.

Really? Which portion was it?


DougH  (D License)

Jul 9, 2012, 10:50 AM
Post #25 of 70 (2985 views)
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You have fronts, rears and toggles.
Why not practice using all three up high and down low.

The rears have helped me extend portions of my landing pattern if i was going to be short. The fronts to give me more speed or to shorten a portion and the toggles to make flat turns when needed.

You have all these controll imputs why not learn how to use them?

***I always keep my toggles in my hands. I'm not nutty you know.

I see what you did there, your comment about flat turning with rears tipped me off.

My bad, I thought you were asking a question, and were going to consider the responses.

I didn't realize you were making a statement, and already had it all figured out. I should have realized this was just another opportunity for internet keyboard diarrhea. Crazy


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