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FFC coaches, what would you do?

 

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monkycndo  (D License)

Jul 5, 2012, 9:16 PM
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FFC coaches, what would you do? Can't Post

Here's one situation that I would like to get some honest feedback. A well thought out smart ass remark is welcome as well.

Sub 200 jump number jumper wants to learn to wingsuit. Gets told to come back at 200 jumps.
Finds SM1 for sale in his size and buys it.
Gets warned that is not a beginner suit. He says he will put it away until gets enough jumps in smaller suit.
Finally achieves the required 200 and gets some training from another coach.
Seems to do ok, but gets told he needs to work on better pitch of PC.
Borrows an appropriate beginner suit and makes somewhere between 6-10 total jumps, including FFC.
Then decides to jump the SM1 and has line twists resulting in cut away.
When questioned about it, said the suit size wasn't the issue, it was the canopy's fault.(Sabre2 190 loaded around 1.2)

So, how do you respond to this jumper after he lied about putting suit away and arguing that his skills were not contributory but canopy was at fault for the reserve ride?

*edited to appease grammar nazi


(This post was edited by monkycndo on Jul 5, 2012, 9:34 PM)


piisfish

Jul 6, 2012, 12:05 AM
Post #2 of 79 (1908 views)
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Re: [monkycndo] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

well the person is an adult, did his FFC, has been "warned"... What else do you want to do ?

Shame him a bit more.
Let know "publicly" that you do not recommend his choice so that "your" WS coaching activity remains as unaffected as possible.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 6, 2012, 12:20 PM
Post #3 of 79 (1829 views)
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Re: [monkycndo] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

There isn't much you can do past warning him, and realizing that he was dishonest about the suit, is someone to not be trusted.

We find guys doing their FFCs on Sbirds; while it is irresponsible on the part of the coach to encourage it, the norm seems to be heading this route. "Get a coupla jumps on a small suit, and you'll grow into the bigger suit."
It's a series of bad decisions, bad examples, and he'll likely end up being a bad bodypilot because he didn't learn on a smaller suit.

Try to teach him to be the best he can be on what he has and know you did your best to grow his knowledge. Perhaps you can eventually help him see he's made a poor choice. Or, maybe he'll become a super bad-ass in the bigger suit and prove everyone else wrong.


pattersd  (D License)

Jul 6, 2012, 8:42 PM
Post #4 of 79 (1779 views)
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Re: [monkycndo] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll send you my original prodigy, you can go make a jump with him wearing it. the embarassment of getting outflown by nothing should dent his ego enough he might listen.


monkycndo  (D License)

Jul 7, 2012, 6:16 AM
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Re: [pattersd] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

The part that pisses me off is that this idiot could screw up a lot of the work that has been done to keep the local DZOs comfortable with having wingsuiters on the DZ. A Washington DZ just banned wingsuiters for safety reasons. The guy obviously doesn't have an understanding of how to control the larger wings, so there is the issue of staying closed up on exit. The unneeded reserve ride could easily lead to an off landing and depending on the DZ, the DZO is already pissed at us for not being able to land on the airport with a good main.

I am torn between trying the stay nice approach and help him see the error of his ways or the you fucked up and what the hell were you thinking approach and embarrass the shit out of him. The scarey part is that I don't think either way will sink in.

And Dave, it's been about 5 years since I flew that Prodigy. I think it might be fun to show these new kids what can be done with on old skool suit and experience.


bigbearfng  (D 29442)

Jul 7, 2012, 8:27 AM
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Re: [monkycndo] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Remember bounce bingo?Wink


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Jul 7, 2012, 8:50 AM
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Re: [monkycndo] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The part that pisses me off is that this idiot could screw up a lot of the work that has been done to keep the local DZOs comfortable with having wingsuiters on the DZ.

Then I suggest you focus on the one part of this equation that matters the most, the DZO. Keep him happy and feeling like the WSers on the DZ are under control and share your concern with this problem child with him. That way if something does go amiss, he can easily identify the source of the problem and not mistake the whole WS group as the source. Share your concerns about the size suit he is flying and recommend that he (DZO) not let problem child fly that suit until he has the requisite number of WS flights and or you give the OK that he now has the skills to fly it safely.


On the other hand,as futile as you may think it is, you also need to work with the individual as well. You have a 50/50 chance that this guy may come around, especially if you fly with him and he sees that he is lacking the needed skills to efficiently fly the bigger suit with others. Who knows, maybe he will see the error of his thinking after a little bit of mentoring and after having his ass handed to him in the sky by others. At the end of the day if he still flips you off and proclaims he has "Mad Skillz" and you just don't understand his GR techniques at least the DZO will put the bullseye on his head and not the groups.

Bottom line, you have to work with both of them.


BenediktDE

Jul 8, 2012, 9:12 AM
Post #8 of 79 (1629 views)
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Re: [monkycndo] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

a) I would offer him coaching and lend him a suit in appropriate size.
b) If he prefers to play 'lonesome cowboy' I'd warn him about the dangers.
c) If he ignores the warnings, I'd warn the DZO and the other wingsuiters at the dropzone that the guy is not safe. - The sky will get boring if no one wants to fly with him...

I also like that "outfly him in a Prodigy" idea very much! Laugh


piisfish

Jul 8, 2012, 9:27 AM
Post #9 of 79 (1627 views)
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Re: [BenediktDE] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

The "risk" with the Prodigy outflying him is he will feel the need to get a bigger suit than his old Mach1. Like a Venom/Xbird class suit Unsure
Seen it happen too much already.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Jul 8, 2012, 5:08 PM
Post #10 of 79 (1563 views)
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Re: [monkycndo] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

I would put a bug in the ear of the S&TA...same as you would if you were concerned someone were downsizing on a canopy far to quickly. Same concept I think, just a different tool.


pms07  (D 7571)

Jul 8, 2012, 6:38 PM
Post #11 of 79 (1548 views)
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Re: [monkycndo] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Talking with the subject, DZO and S&TA all seem like reasonable approaches.

To another issue, people are really doing a FFC with an S-Bird? That really amazes and disturbs me. What do you do about that type of situation, if anything?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 8, 2012, 7:13 PM
Post #12 of 79 (1541 views)
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Re: [pms07] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Talking with the subject, DZO and S&TA all seem like reasonable approaches.

To another issue, people are really doing a FFC with an S-Bird? That really amazes and disturbs me. What do you do about that type of situation, if anything?

Other than talking to the S&TA at the DZ about the coach' choice of suit...not much can be done. Hope that the S&TA trusts your judgement.
Talking to S&TA's, DZO's about this topic often draws blank stares, because they usually know very little about wingsuits. They'll turn to the local WS expert who may or may not understand the issues of exit procedures, off landings, whatever.
It's also somewhat common to see guys with single/low double digit WS jumps show up with Apache's, Xbirds, Venoms, Vampire 4's, S-birds, etc. You can stop them at one DZ, yet they can easily find another DZ that either won't notice or won't care.
Therefore, we'll try to teach/guide them when we can.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jul 9, 2012, 5:22 AM
Post #13 of 79 (1502 views)
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Re: [monkycndo] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Since many people without wingsuits have had line twists with lightly loaded Sabre2s, I don't see how you can **necessarily** blame this on the suit. Line twists happen. They happen to me on a Sabre or Spectre or Storm from time to time, even doing RW.

Maybe he just needs packing lessons.


Butters  (C 37840)

Jul 9, 2012, 6:09 AM
Post #14 of 79 (1488 views)
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Re: [kallend] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Since many people without wingsuits have had line twists with lightly loaded Sabre2s, I don't see how you can **necessarily** blame this on the suit. Line twists happen. They happen to me on a Sabre or Spectre or Storm from time to time, even doing RW.

Maybe he just needs packing lessons.

First, I believe in learning to fly while wearing a small wingsuit. Second, I agree that line twists are not necessarily because of the wingsuit. I would make a flight with him and watch (or film if possible) his deployment. Third, I try not to make repeated flights with people who don't listen ... if you avoid him (and the majority of other local wingsuiters avoid him) then it sends a message to the S&TA or DZO that he is not a part of the local community.


(This post was edited by Butters on Jul 9, 2012, 6:58 AM)


monkycndo  (D License)

Jul 9, 2012, 6:37 AM
Post #15 of 79 (1483 views)
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FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

So to update the story.

I was told of what happened by the S&TA. The DZO, DZM and the S&TA spoke with the guy. He will not be jumping that suit again at the DZ until he has enough experience to fly the suit. He also knew he would be having a discussion with me.

I was at the DZ this weekend and saw the guy. I wanted to see if I was going to have to go to him to discuss what happened or if he would approach me. He eventually came to me and gave me his take on what happened. From what I was hearing at first, he was justifying what he did as acceptable. After we discussed issues of safety, skills, and just a few of the little things he just didn't know, the light finally came on and he understood why the suit needed to be put away. Between myself and others, there are plenty of folks on the DZ who will be able to help mentor him. Only time will tell if he is giving lip service or if he actually wants to put in the effort to gain the experience to fly the bigger suits.

About the reserve ride. Yes, the SA2 can spin up at any WL. But this jumper was informed of his weak pitch and that he needed a longer bridle to clear the burble, especially for a larger suit. In the discussion with him, he thought he "might" not have been completely stable when deploying and the canopy already had one full twist when he looked up as the canopy was inflating. I agree that I was not there to see the cause, but weak pitch, "possible" unstable deployment, and a big wing to control during canopy extraction/inflation, that is just stacking the deck against you. Eliminate one link in the chain, and a simple line twist could have more than likely have been no problem.

With so many new jumpers entering the sport just to try to do the cool WS things they see on the interwebz, this type of thing is going to happen more and more. Peer pressure is often a better deterrent than those pesky rules. If we create the culture and expectation that cutting corners on safety & experience is not acceptable, hopefully we can keep our newly fledged birds from doing stupid shit and keep the DZOs from imposing restrictions, or as seen in the NW, banning WS all together.


5.samadhi

Jul 9, 2012, 6:45 AM
Post #16 of 79 (1478 views)
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Re: [monkycndo] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

this is a perfect anecdote to support the stance that we as wingsuiters do not need USPA to control/regulate us..."we" did just fine in this case regulating ourselves by talking amongst local DZ authorities.

Keep it local!


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Jul 9, 2012, 8:27 AM
Post #17 of 79 (1462 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
this is a perfect anecdote to support the stance that we as wingsuiters do not need USPA to control/regulate us..."we" did just fine in this case regulating ourselves by talking amongst local DZ authorities.

Keep it local!

+1

Nice job.


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Jul 9, 2012, 10:14 AM
Post #18 of 79 (1434 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

     
Quote:
With so many new jumpers entering the sport just to try to do the cool WS things they see on the interwebz, this type of thing is going to happen more and more. Peer pressure is often a better deterrent than those pesky rules. Hopefully we can keep our newly fledged birds from doing stupid shit and keep the DZOs from imposing restrictions, or as seen in the NW, banning WS all together.

In reply to:
this is a perfect anecdote to support the stance that we as wingsuiters do not need USPA to control/regulate us..."we" did just fine in this case regulating ourselves by talking amongst local DZ authorities.

Keep it local!

In the case of USPA regulation ( possible/ probable?) there won't be " Wingsuit monitors" on the DZ. The burden of monitoring and enforcement of the current recommendations or new rules will still fall on the DZ staff, S&TA & DZM at the local level.

Besides policing ourselves, we can help the staff be more educated in regards to wingsuits. Don't feed the hysteria currently being used as a propaganda machine for personal agenda.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Jul 9, 2012, 10:31 AM
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Re: [VectorBoy] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
With so many new jumpers entering the sport just to try to do the cool WS things they see on the interwebz, this type of thing is going to happen more and more. Peer pressure is often a better deterrent than those pesky rules. Hopefully we can keep our newly fledged birds from doing stupid shit and keep the DZOs from imposing restrictions, or as seen in the NW, banning WS all together.

In reply to:
this is a perfect anecdote to support the stance that we as wingsuiters do not need USPA to control/regulate us..."we" did just fine in this case regulating ourselves by talking amongst local DZ authorities.

Keep it local!

In the case of USPA regulation ( possible/ probable?) there won't be " Wingsuit monitors" on the DZ. The burden of monitoring and enforcement of the current recommendations or new rules will still fall on the DZ staff, S&TA & DZM at the local level.

Besides policing ourselves, we can help the staff be more educated in regards to wingsuits. Don't feed the hysteria currently being used as a propaganda machine for personal agenda.

I totally agree that we can and should help educate more members about wingsuiting in general, from Pilots to TI to S&TA and DZO. All have preconceived ideas of what wingsuiting is and isn't. This would be a good direction to channel the existing energy. An education campaign.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Jul 9, 2012, 10:45 AM
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I totally agree that we can and should help educate more members about wingsuiting in general, from Pilots to TI to S&TA and DZO. All have preconceived ideas of what wingsuiting is and isn't. This would be a good direction to channel the existing energy. An education campaign.

Its just a shame that with no governing body enforcing the suggestions, rules and training from the start, you'll always end up fighting 'the asshole that does things his own way' and will end up hitting walls more and more often due to those same guys using up all good will with those same DZO, TI and S&TA's.

This education campaign should not be one based on 'if you want to listen, work with us'. There are sadly to many people doing things their way.

Its funny that 5.samadhi comments on this being the way to enforce rules, safety and training, where in another thread you're promoting doing everything possible to bypass those same recommendations for experience (like doing balloonjumps with non-TSO'd gear without proper permissions etc). Its those exact stunts that (both in media and on DZs) keep us in the spotlight as a bunch of lunatics, instead of structured and well trained professionals at what we do.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Jul 9, 2012, 11:35 AM
Post #21 of 79 (1403 views)
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Re: [mccordia] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I totally agree that we can and should help educate more members about wingsuiting in general, from Pilots to TI to S&TA and DZO. All have preconceived ideas of what wingsuiting is and isn't. This would be a good direction to channel the existing energy. An education campaign.

Its just a shame that with no governing body enforcing the suggestions, rules and training from the start, you'll always end up fighting 'the asshole that does things his own way' and will end up hitting walls more and more often due to those same guys using up all good will with those same DZO, TI and S&TA's.

This education campaign should not be one based on 'if you want to listen, work with us'. There are sadly to many people doing things their way.

Its funny that 5.samadhi comments on this being the way to enforce rules, safety and training, where in another thread you're promoting doing everything possible to bypass those same recommendations for experience (like doing balloonjumps with non-TSO'd gear without proper permissions etc). Its those exact stunts that (both in media and on DZs) keep us in the spotlight as a bunch of lunatics, instead of structured and well trained professionals at what we do.

Even with such rules you will still have stragglers....don't kid yourself that creating a police will actually solve all the issues.

I prefer concepts like mentoring and education over rules and enforcement.


(This post was edited by WickedWingsuits on Jul 9, 2012, 11:36 AM)


The111  (D 29246)

Jul 9, 2012, 12:02 PM
Post #22 of 79 (1389 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Even with such rules you will still have stragglers....don't kid yourself that creating a police will actually solve all the issues.

Sure, and then you have the locals for peer pressure when that happens. Think of it as a two-layer firewall. Top layer = national rules. Bottom layer = local peer pressure.

In reply to:
I prefer concepts like mentoring and education over rules and enforcement.

Who says we have to choose one or the other? They are not mutually exclusive. Why not use both? For those who respond properly to mentoring and education, the (hypothetical) rules will never even get in their way.


(This post was edited by The111 on Jul 9, 2012, 12:04 PM)


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Jul 9, 2012, 12:19 PM
Post #23 of 79 (1381 views)
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Re: [mccordia] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Its just a shame that with no governing body enforcing the suggestions,
In reply to:

Our governing body does not enforce, they can't be everywhere. The DZOs and S&TAs enforce. I've never been talked to by a board member about canopy patterns or pull altitudes, While I have by S&TAs. Whether it is a recommendation or a rule. The S&TAs can't see everything, group members can and if they care say the right thing at the right time at the local level.



Its those exact stunts that (both in media and on DZs) keep us in the spotlight as a bunch of lunatics, instead of structured and well trained professionals at what we do.
We are not standing here facing a non -needed instructor issue because of a bunch of lunatics. lets face the fact that it is predominately a 1 man audio- visual barrage presented to the USPA of suspect facts and a very broken root cause analysis of actual incidents.... Yes I admit there are incidents but they are all far from being directly training related. Some are just bad luck and some are just assholes being assholes, as you say. And its still the S&TAs job to deal with those whether its a USPA rule or not!

Some of the guys here choose to be part of the solution. Their the ones that have the most to loose. Or you could stick your head in the sand and claim soon the USPA will fix everything wrong about wingsuiting and the problem will be out of our hands. Sounds like socialism to me.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Jul 9, 2012, 12:31 PM
Post #24 of 79 (1371 views)
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Re: [The111] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Even with such rules you will still have stragglers....don't kid yourself that creating a police will actually solve all the issues.

Sure, and then you have the locals for peer pressure when that happens. Think of it as a two-layer firewall. Top layer = national rules. Bottom layer = local peer pressure.

In reply to:
I prefer concepts like mentoring and education over rules and enforcement.

Who says we have to choose one or the other? They are not mutually exclusive. Why not use both? For those who respond properly to mentoring and education, the (hypothetical) rules will never even get in their way.

It has worked for every other discipline in skydiving EXCEPT swooping. I do think wingsuit upsizing is a fair comparison to canopy downsizing however I think the risks are not similar.

I keep hearing "if we had gotten ahead of swooping 10 years ago...". However my opinion is that our discipline is conducted at an altitude where it remains more similar to CRW, Belly, Freefly and even skysurfing than it does swooping. The crowd pleasing pressures do not exist and neither does the ground.

If I wanted to be regulated I woud move back home and join the BPA.


The111  (D 29246)

Jul 9, 2012, 12:42 PM
Post #25 of 79 (1364 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] FFC coaches, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It has worked for every other discipline in skydiving EXCEPT swooping.

Nothing works for every skydiving discipline, and nothing works all the time, as you pointed out above. Hence my points about a 2-layer system providing more security (while of course still being imperfect).

In reply to:
If I wanted to be regulated I woud move back home and join the BPA.

It's clear you "don't want to be"... but can you admit that an extra layer of security has positive aspects (it may prevent someone from getting through) in addition to the negative aspects (you don't like it)?

I don't think anyone likes being regulated. I'm still not even sure where I stand on all this but I am trying to address the potential positives.


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