Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Am I going to bounce?

 

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

FastRodriguez  (Student)

Jul 7, 2012, 3:26 AM
Post #1 of 34 (3462 views)
Shortcut
Am I going to bounce? Can't Post

Hi!

I am a new student jumper from Spain.I apologize if my english gets funky at times :)

I Live in Slovakia at the moment and its here that I am taking my training. I was considering the AFF till someone mentioned the posibility of doing static line. I read a lot of posts in here and in some other webpages and seeing as both are similarly safe and effective, I went for s/l.

The only problem is..... S/l in Slovakia turns out to be a little different, and I cant find any information about it, other than the one I get from my instructors and previous students who hang out in the club.

We jump a Mars student rig. It is equiped with a Mpaad aad. A lot of people around here jump those and noone ever complained ( that I know of)
I have nothing but good words for my instructors. Everyone seems to be willing to help. Communication gets a bit hard sometime ( My slovak is not all that good) but there is always someone around who can speak some english or some Spanish and so we make it happen. Radio instructor can speak pretty good english though.
It is a very small Drop Zone (never been to a diff one so I dont really have a reference) and we students get quite a lot of attention from the older jumpers ( for some reason there is a gap. Everyone is either under 40 or over 60)

The problem I have... Its the system of training itself.

First: We had 2 days of ground school ( Day 1 - Gear, components of a rig, fabrics used, physics of the wing, physics of free fall, opening sequence, malfunctions / videos, Ep, Harness trainer. Day 2 - Repetition of malfunctions, Ep and Harness trainer. Test.)
Second: Jumping

1st level - Grab your sleeves at the heigh of ur biceps and jump (s/l)

2nd level - Jump out of the plane and arch (s/l)

3rd level - Dummy pulls (s/l)

4th level (and here is where it gets REALLY funky)

You jump out of an antonov 2. They attach a static line to a DROGUE chute on your container. Attached to the Drogue there is a KAP 3 device ( modern version, they are still making them, for real) that would open your main should you fail to do so.
The jump looks like this. You jump - static line opens the drogue - you do a 5 secs delay - pull a ripcord that opens the main. If you dont, the kap will do it for you. You still have a normal reserve with the aad on it.
Then you progress to a bigger delay. After you finish with the delays, they remove the Drogue, and you are ready for level 5

5th level - Normal free fall :)

.. Another thing. There is not a set number of jumps in between levels. It is all at instructors discretion. You may need to do only 2 jumps on each level till you reach level four, or you may need to do 15 :)

I guess my question is. Does this look like a good, SAFE system to you? I understand a lot of people in western Europe or the States might not really know it. I think it came from the russian army training style or something. But, do you see any big flaws anywhere?

I must repeat though, that my instructors seem to be very profesional. Its not the School im worried about, Its the system, and that drogue chute thing :)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jul 7, 2012, 3:57 AM
Post #2 of 34 (3393 views)
Shortcut
Re: [FastRodriguez] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

all that sounds just fine.
In relation to "no set numbers" it depends on skills demonstration. demonstrate the skills and move on. Dont demonstrate and you have to repeat.
.


FastRodriguez  (Student)

Jul 7, 2012, 4:01 AM
Post #3 of 34 (3388 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks a lot! That was really quick :)

It just I cant seem to find a lot of information on a drogue parachute for students, and it freaked me out a bit.

So far so good as for the levels. I am cleared to do my DPs tomorrow :)

Thanks again!


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jul 7, 2012, 4:03 AM
Post #4 of 34 (3383 views)
Shortcut
Re: [FastRodriguez] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks a lot! That was really quick :)

It just I cant seem to find a lot of information on a drogue parachute for students, and it freaked me out a bit.

So far so good as for the levels. I am cleared to do my DPs tomorrow :)

Thanks again!
the drogue on a solo rig is different but i dont see it as a "bounce" issue


FastRodriguez  (Student)

Jul 7, 2012, 4:07 AM
Post #5 of 34 (3381 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
My fear is me and kap failing to deploy main and aad releasing the reserve, and it tangeling with the drogue. I have a lot of imagination :)

G


dthames  (B 37674)

Jul 7, 2012, 4:17 AM
Post #6 of 34 (3375 views)
Shortcut
Re: [FastRodriguez] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

That system sounds very interesting to me.

I was a static line student but I am not a seasoned expert. I am sure more experience jumpers will add their comments. I have noticed on the early SL jumps some student cant keep good form and have some rough, twisted, or even dangerous openings. The drogue sounds like a way to prevent that.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jul 7, 2012, 4:37 AM
Post #7 of 34 (3368 views)
Shortcut
Re: [FastRodriguez] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My fear is me and kap failing to deploy main and aad releasing the reserve, and it tangeling with the drogue. I have a lot of imagination :)

G
that's a fear that eveyone of us over comesSly
but bare in mind that even if ever thing goes right you CAN still die doing this sport.


FastRodriguez  (Student)

Jul 7, 2012, 4:46 AM
Post #8 of 34 (3363 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand this. And im willing to take a certain ammount of risk. But I want to be as safe and as much in control of my own destiny as I can. I know there are a few availible systems of learning and each country has its own little modifications in place. I want to make the most informed decision I possibly can.
If after choosing a system I happen to die, well, tough shit compadre :)..

G


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 7, 2012, 4:52 AM
Post #9 of 34 (3357 views)
Shortcut
Re: [FastRodriguez] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

 The system they use is obviously a proven system, otherwise they would probably do or use something different.

It sounds like you lack a bit of confidence in carrying out your emergency drills if you are in a situation where you might need to use them.

The solution is to simply do a bit more practice of your emergency drills on the ground...its free and you can do as many as you like.

The unknown you have, is whether you can carry out your emergency drills for real, and until you have to, its something that you will always wonder about....I know of people who have many thousands of jumps, who have never had a malfunction, and they still have this in the back of their minds.....so you are not the only one to think in this way.

If you do lots of practice on the ground, you will find that you will be well prepared to handle a for real situation. Most people who experience their first malfunction find that dealing with it is easier than they expected.

Have confidence in your skills and the instructors who train you. If you have doubts, don`t get in the plane until you have talked to your instructors.....thats what they are for.

Buena suerte......


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 7, 2012, 5:33 AM
Post #10 of 34 (3342 views)
Shortcut
Re: [FastRodriguez] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My fear is me and kap failing to deploy main and aad releasing the reserve, and it tangeling with the drogue

First, pull the ripcord and you won't have a problem.

Beyond that, keep in mind that every tandem rig uses a drouge, and if there was a problem with reserves clearing the drouge, I think we would have discovered it by now.

Just so you know, reserves are packed in something called a 'freebag', which contains the reserve, but is not attached to the top of the canopy like the deployment bag on a main canopy. So if the reserve pilot chute or bridel should become entangled with the drouge, the reserve can still get out of the bag and open without being tangled in the drouge.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jul 7, 2012, 6:48 AM
Post #11 of 34 (3299 views)
Shortcut
Re: [FastRodriguez] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's your choice to be fast, Rodriguez.


FastRodriguez  (Student)

Jul 7, 2012, 6:59 AM
Post #12 of 34 (3288 views)
Shortcut
Re: [obelixtim] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

You are absolutely right.
I believe that a rig is a machine, and that if cared for properly and packed in a neat way it should "never" fail, barring an "act of god", of course.
I dont believe in myself nearly as much though. I keep thinking.. What if I freeze? It comes from the first jump. I jumped, I started to count... And i saw myself under an open canopy (with line twists) I know about 5 secs must have passed, but they felt like .5 secs though. I kicked myself out of the line twist with no problems, and I dont remember even being afraid... It was like oo! I know what to do!
Next couple of jumps went a bit better. Last one I even think i remember seeing the plane going away.

Hopefully as my awareness increase, so will my confidence.

Thank you for your advice. I do practice my EPs and my arching everytime I think about it :)

I did tell myself to never force it. I will never do something I am not confident with.

Anyways, this weekend is about DP, Ill try and arch like crazy and enjoy the canopy ride. Ill worry about drogue chutes when the instructor says I need to worry about them.
You guys did help a lot to calm me down

Best of lucks and blue skies!


FastRodriguez  (Student)

Jul 7, 2012, 7:03 AM
Post #13 of 34 (3283 views)
Shortcut
Re: [davelepka] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you.

I was aware of the drogue chutes, but I though they had an extra handle they could use to release it if needed be.

I was not aware that the free bag in the reserve had that function. Thank you for the info :)

Feeling a whole lot more confident now though!

Best of lucks and blue skyes!


FastRodriguez  (Student)

Jul 7, 2012, 7:07 AM
Post #14 of 34 (3279 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Andy9o8] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's your choice to be fast, Rodriguez.

I think some things are meant to be done fast, learning how to jump out of plane and landing safely, is probably not one of them :)

G


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Jul 7, 2012, 8:00 AM
Post #15 of 34 (3247 views)
Shortcut
Re: [FastRodriguez] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I believe that a rig is a machine, and that if cared for properly and packed in a neat way it should "never" fail, barring an "act of god", of course.

No.

It is a mechanical device and subject to failure. For a wide variety of reasons and under a wide variety of circumstances.

That's why we have reserves.
That's why we drill our EPs until they are second nature.

To your original question:

Other than the drouge setup, that sounds very similar to the Static line progression here in the US. And addding in the drouge chute jumps to reinforce stability during the first few "freefalls" sounds like a good idea to me. Those were the hardest levels for me to get through.


FastRodriguez  (Student)

Jul 7, 2012, 8:47 AM
Post #16 of 34 (3223 views)
Shortcut
Re: [wolfriverjoe] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I believe that a rig is a machine, and that if cared for properly and packed in a neat way it should "never" fail, barring an "act of god", of course.

No.

It is a mechanical device and subject to failure. For a wide variety of reasons and under a wide variety of circumstances.

That's why we have reserves.
That's why we drill our EPs until they are second nature.

To your original question:

Other than the drouge setup, that sounds very similar to the Static line progression here in the US. And addding in the drouge chute jumps to reinforce stability during the first few "freefalls" sounds like a good idea to me. Those were the hardest levels for me to get through.

I expressed myself badly. What I meant was. I believe a rig ( Container/main/reserve/aad) if cared for properly, well maintained and well packed should not fail, unless the operator ( or rigger) do something wrong. In most cases (for what Ive understood) most fatalities are caused by the pilot doing something that if not stupid, at least was out of his hability range. Of course total malfunctions can happen, but I think that if everything is done properly, they should be almost anecdotal.

Thank you for the answer :)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 7, 2012, 2:13 PM
Post #17 of 34 (3108 views)
Shortcut
Re: [FastRodriguez] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

>They attach a static line to a DROGUE chute on your container. Attached to the Drogue
>there is a KAP 3 device ( modern version, they are still making them, for real) that
>would open your main should you fail to do so.

Ah, the old drougefall student program! Strong used to make rigs for this kind of program. Not common here in the US (in fact I have never seen a DZ use it.) But not inherently unsafe.

>My fear is me and kap failing to deploy main and aad releasing the reserve, and it
>tangeling with the drogue.

That is a risk but it is a small one. There was a fair amount of testing done for tandem AAD's and it didn't pose a big risk.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jul 8, 2012, 10:27 AM
Post #18 of 34 (2916 views)
Shortcut
Re: [FastRodriguez] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you do go through the drogue assisted progression system, get some photos of the setup!

I'm familiar with the drogue system on a Russian D-6 paratrooper parachute, but most of us have no idea how the system might be set up on a sport rig.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Jul 8, 2012, 10:49 AM
Post #19 of 34 (2907 views)
Shortcut
Re: [FastRodriguez] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

interesting......

what is the exit altitude????

and at what altitude is the KAP 3 set for???

what aad is used on the reserve??? and what altitude is THAT set for...????

any idea of what the frequency for a "two-out" might be?????

ps.. Your English is QUITE good.......
have fun. skydive safely

Smile


FastRodriguez  (Student)

Jul 8, 2012, 11:46 AM
Post #20 of 34 (2882 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pchapman] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for your answer!

I will take some pictures for you. How would you like me to take them? Rig? Rig while packed? Drouge chute? kap 3?
Id love to be able to share as much information as I can for future students who might encounter this system, but since Im pretty new at this I dont know wich pics would be useful :)
Please let me know what u need and Ill make sure I have them for you next weekend :)

Best regards
G.


FastRodriguez  (Student)

Jul 8, 2012, 12:16 PM
Post #21 of 34 (2869 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jimmytavino] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

So many questions, so little answers :)


what is the exit altitude????
It varies. I have only done 6 jumps so far. One guy jumps first. He lands and they comment on winds and whatnot. They decide then. Lowest was 1.200 meters, highest was 1500.


and at what altitude is the KAP 3 set for???
Im not sure. I thought I understood it was time based. You jump and if you havent pulled by an x mark. Its pulls 4 you. The timer has a stop pin attached to your static line. When u jump, it starts the count. I might have missunderstood. I will make sure I ask them next Friday and ill post it here with some pics of the set up :)

what aad is used on the reserve??? and what altitude is THAT set for...

Its an Mpaad. Made by mars, the same people who make the m2. Its pretty common in here. It is made to fit the mars container. They are czech. A whole bunch of people jump their gear in here. I dont know how common it is on the States. They have the basic student setup for the mpaad. I think it opens at +- 300 meters, I am not sure though, ill have that info next week too :)

any idea of what the frequency for a "two-out" might be

I have no idea. Chienf instructor commented once that in over thirty years of teaching he has only had one issue. The one guy who on jump one hold his handles instead of his sleeves. When the main open, I guess inercy pulled for him. Champ choped a good main and had a few extra seconds of fun :) Landed just fine though.


The thing is today, when I went to the club, I told him my worries and he said, Its ok. We will invent the Rodriguez system.
After I passed my dummy pulls today, I will go into the first three levels of aff next saturday ( Really epic price too :) )When I finish that, we will talk. Option 1, go back to the Drouge system having had some free fall time and feeling a whole more confident. Option 2, finish aff :)

Edited to correct some epic misspelling. I am sure there is a whole lot more in there. I am really sorry :)


(This post was edited by FastRodriguez on Jul 8, 2012, 12:21 PM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jul 8, 2012, 12:21 PM
Post #22 of 34 (2863 views)
Shortcut
Re: [FastRodriguez] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

Focus on your jump first of course!

But any pics of the rig would be interesting, especially of the mechanism by which the drogue connects to the rig, and the drogue itself. Release mechanisms are always interesting as they often have to withstand a lot of force but release with little force, in this case both by a handle and a mechanical AAD. Camera electrons are cheap anyway.


FastRodriguez  (Student)

Jul 8, 2012, 1:01 PM
Post #23 of 34 (2842 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pchapman] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

I did focus on my first course. I still feel like I dont know square though, I know I should have some of the answers for the questions I was asked, but there is just so much info aroud.

I will take those pics and ask a million questions for you. Is there something specific I should ask?

Thank you

G.


Abedy  (D 10153)

Jul 8, 2012, 1:44 PM
Post #24 of 34 (2833 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pchapman] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

Some of the old farts on my DZ here talked about jumping with a "stabis" system in old GDR military times. "Stabis" is short for "stabiliser" in German and sort of a drogue system. Especially useful when jumping with heavy cargo I was told. None of 'em told about any safety issues but I wasn't that much into it. But if it had been scary they would have told... So I think you are not in any real danger Wink


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 8, 2012, 1:51 PM
Post #25 of 34 (2827 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pchapman] Am I going to bounce? [In reply to] Can't Post

Didn't the US forestry service use a static-lined drogue system at one time?

I seem to remember seeing a smoke jumpers rig set-up that way...it had a monster big square in it with no toggles, riser turns only.


First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Safety and Training

 


Search for (options)