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Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction

 

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erdnarob  (D 364)

Jul 6, 2012, 2:33 PM
Post #1 of 63 (4780 views)
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Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction Can't Post

Recently, a jumper from Quebec had a very special incident after his parachute opened with line twists followed by a fast spinning. The parachutist decided to cut away. Because of the spinning, he got on his back. Being equiped with a RLS, the reserve pin was pulled out, pilot chute inflated and bridle fully extended as seen on the video (see You Tube link : "mon premier reserve" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKVAtjfGjp0 ). But so far no extraction of the reserve Dbag occurred. You can see on the video the jumper reach with hand behind his shoulder and grab the bridle and top of the reserve Dbag and proceed himself to the extraction. That last attempt was successful despite being at 600 ft at the time. Later they also found that the Vigil 2 had cut the reserve closing loop.

I tried to reproduce this incident since I had at home a same manufacturer's container packed. I had to open it to proceed to an AAD exchange. I first removed the main parachute. I pulled the reserve pin and got the pilot chute and bridle completely out. I put the container on the ground up side down and placed the bridle around the rig shoulder and upward and started pulling up at 90 degrees with respect to the rig using a scale making sure the container was off the ground to allow a possible extraction (I used my foot to keep the container in the right position). I gave up at 50 lbs because the scale was at maximum, no extraction has occured yet. Then while I was holding by the main lift webs the container at 45 degrees with respect to the ground, a friend of mine was pulling up (using two hands) the bridle at 90 degrees with respect to the container. At full force, no extraction happened.

I have then to conclude that when a jumper is on his back with bridle extended and pilot chute inflated, it is impossible to get an extraction of the reserve Dbag. I have to repeat this expriment with my container and others but I believe I will get the same results : no reserve Dbag extraction when jumper is on his back.

I would like to get comments on the video and on my trying to reproduce this incident.Manufacturer reactions are more than welcome. Many thanks.
I have a short video of the first part of the expriment when I am pulling with a 50 lbs scale.


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jul 6, 2012, 2:39 PM
Post #2 of 63 (4740 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

http://youtu.be/VKVAtjfGjp0?t=1m38s

Clicky (and queued up to just before deployment). That's some scary shit. Unimpressed


adamUK  (C 104423)

Jul 6, 2012, 2:54 PM
Post #3 of 63 (4721 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

Any details on the container & reserve?

Well done that man. Scary stuff indeed. CrazyShocked


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Jul 6, 2012, 3:10 PM
Post #4 of 63 (4706 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have then to conclude that when a jumper is on his back with bridle extended and pilot chute inflated, it is impossible to get an extraction of the reserve Dbag.


The answer is yes and no. If you have enough altitude, it can potentially work its way out unassisted by the jumper but its not guaranteed. Here is outside video of a jumper on his back with reserve PC and freebag in tow until it clears itself. Fast forward to the 1:24 mark and look to the upper left hand corner of the screen.

http://vimeo.com/6834669


Bottom line, don't deploy your reserve on your back, its a crap shoot and anyones guess what will happen.


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Jul 6, 2012, 3:23 PM
Post #5 of 63 (4699 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

With an RSL and a spinning malfunction you may not have a choice. My second cutaway was spinning on my back under half a Sabre, and my RSL fired my reserve before I could flip belly to earth. In my case it worked out okay once I got all the linetwists out...


adamUK  (C 104423)

Jul 6, 2012, 3:34 PM
Post #6 of 63 (4690 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Bottom line, don't deploy your reserve on your back, its a crap shoot and anyones guess what will happen.

Would a skyhook be any better in this situation??


indyz  (D 28525)

Jul 6, 2012, 4:05 PM
Post #7 of 63 (4662 views)
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Re: [adamUK] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Any details on the container & reserve?
It's a Wings reserve PC and freebag.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 6, 2012, 5:24 PM
Post #8 of 63 (4603 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Bottom line, don't deploy your reserve on your back, its a crap shoot and anyones guess what will happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWHFKAQqeSI

Turned out well, but still scary stuff.


pnuwin  (D 112233)

Jul 6, 2012, 6:28 PM
Post #9 of 63 (4562 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

Did your skyhook stay connected in that deployment or did it disconnect and give you a reserve PC deployment? It's hard to see from the video.

Quote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWHFKAQqeSI

Turned out well, but still scary stuff.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 6, 2012, 6:37 PM
Post #10 of 63 (4552 views)
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Re: [pnuwin] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

That wasn't me, that rig isn't Skyhook equipped, RSL deployment.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jul 6, 2012, 8:45 PM
Post #11 of 63 (4479 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

John Sherman recently published an article about reserve freebag extraction angles. You can read it on Jump Shack's website.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jul 6, 2012, 11:09 PM
Post #12 of 63 (4442 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have then to conclude that when a jumper is on his back with bridle extended and pilot chute inflated, it is impossible to get an extraction of the reserve Dbag.


The answer is yes and no. If you have enough altitude, it can potentially work its way out unassisted by the jumper but its not guaranteed. Here is outside video of a jumper on his back with reserve PC and freebag in tow until it clears itself. Fast forward to the 1:24 mark and look to the upper left hand corner of the screen.

http://vimeo.com/6834669


Bottom line, don't deploy your reserve on your back, its a crap shoot and anyones guess what will happen.

Scott,
He was not only on his back it looked like he was out of control.

Sparky


DaVinciflies

Jul 6, 2012, 11:15 PM
Post #13 of 63 (4438 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Scott,
He was not only on his back it looked like he was out of control.

Sparky

Of course he was out of control!!! If someone was in control and trying to deploy a reserve, why would they be on their back?


(This post was edited by DaVinciflies on Jul 6, 2012, 11:16 PM)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jul 7, 2012, 12:05 AM
Post #14 of 63 (4419 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I have then to conclude that when a jumper is on his back with bridle extended and pilot chute inflated, it is impossible to get an extraction of the reserve Dbag.


The answer is yes and no. If you have enough altitude, it can potentially work its way out unassisted by the jumper but its not guaranteed. Here is outside video of a jumper on his back with reserve PC and freebag in tow until it clears itself. Fast forward to the 1:24 mark and look to the upper left hand corner of the screen.

http://vimeo.com/6834669


Bottom line, don't deploy your reserve on your back, its a crap shoot and anyones guess what will happen.

Scott,
He was not only on his back it looked like he was out of control.

Sparky
I think he was also in a Wingsuit


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 7, 2012, 4:35 AM
Post #15 of 63 (4372 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Scott,
He was not only on his back it looked like he was out of control.

Sparky

Of course he was out of control!!! If someone was in control and trying to deploy a reserve, why would they be on their back?

Cause they want to watch that $60 pack job come out and open!


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jul 7, 2012, 7:07 AM
Post #16 of 63 (4307 views)
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Re: [adamUK] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Bottom line, don't deploy your reserve on your back, its a crap shoot and anyones guess what will happen.

Would a skyhook be any better in this situation??

I sure hope so. Crazy Anyhow, I presume (hope?) it would, since the MARD-connected main would logically (hopefully?) add additional drag force.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 7, 2012, 8:52 AM
Post #17 of 63 (4280 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Anyhow, I presume (hope?) it would, since the MARD-connected main would logically (hopefully?) add additional drag force.

Well, that's the idea!Tongue


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jul 7, 2012, 10:25 AM
Post #18 of 63 (4253 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Scott,
He was not only on his back it looked like he was out of control.

Sparky

Of course he was out of control!!! If someone was in control and trying to deploy a reserve, why would they be on their back?

Because everyone is not as cool as you are. Smile

Sparky


erdnarob  (D 364)

Jul 7, 2012, 10:59 AM
Post #19 of 63 (4242 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Lou Diamond and all of you
First thanks to the lady to have put the You Tube video link more available. Sorry, I still have to get the trick.

Impossible to get an extraction of the reserve Dbag when on our back...yes or no ?. In my trying to reproduce the incident, my friend was pulling with two hands developing at least 100 pounds and more...without extraction, then this is why I said in that position...it looks impossible. But in free fall, air turbulences, a slight shift of the body... for sure...it might clear !!!???
The jumper on that video could have rolled on his belly to Earth to get the extraction of the Dbag but doing it the wrong side and he could have wrapped himself in the bridle.
As somebody mentioned it I believe the extra force and rapidity provided by a Skyhook pulling directly at the bridle could have made the difference.

I had the chance to speak and jump the whole week-end with the jumper (of the incident) and I congratulated him as being a hero. He has been cool enough to evaluate the situation and make the best he could. We cannot say at all he was out of control since in few seconds, he has done the right thing to save his life. I hope in similar situations to be able to be so cool.

I have sent this to different pertinent people including Gary Peek who suggested me to edit a post on this forum. I still hope manufacturers will have something to say about it.
Many thanks to everybody for your comments.


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Jul 7, 2012, 11:53 AM
Post #20 of 63 (4218 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's the problem, you seem to be looking for a definitive black and white answer to this question and the simple truth of it is that it isn't that clear cut. You have video proof from your friends video and from the one I've posted that show two different results. I can show you stills from other events where the jumper deployed their reserve on their backs and it worked as designed with nothing more than seeing a scary bridle deployment going by the jumper. So again, the answer to your question is YES and NO, it all depends on if fate is on your side or not.


Deyan  (D 322)

Jul 7, 2012, 1:17 PM
Post #21 of 63 (4179 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As somebody mentioned it I believe the extra force and rapidity provided by a Skyhook pulling directly at the bridle could have made the difference.

I highly doubt that . You said that it took more than 100 ponds to extract the bag when you did the testing. The malfunctioned main I believe will produce less than that in the first second after cutting away ( it depends of the type of malfunction ,main canopy size etc) , and one second is more than enough for the reserve PC to win the race vs the skyhook.

What you have to take into account is that small rigs, overstuffed reserves and low drag reserve PCs make this scenario more likely to happen regardless of the body position .

P.S. Now as I'm thinking, the guy from the video was spinning under open main, so the force could've been more than 100 lbs,


erdnarob  (D 364)

Jul 7, 2012, 8:07 PM
Post #22 of 63 (4081 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

My first reaction when I heard details about the incident was that being on our back at deployment time makes things highly uncertain. And obviously, skydiving rigs are not designed to be used when being on our back at deployment. Anything can happen in that position. My experiment is a step forward for finding what happened. As I said, I will repeat the experiment with my own rig and other rigs as well but after what I have witnessed I don't expect a different outcome (ie. no extraction).I may be wrong.
In this forum, it is important to concentrate on the essential instead of semantics ie. what are the contributing factors concerning the no extraction of the reserve Dbag by the bridle and pilot chute...design of the upper part of the reserve container, size of the reserve (this one had the maximum compatible size), size of the pilot chute....???? As you see...a lot of possibilities. My first post was written to expose the facts and conclusion after the experiment. The purpose of my thread is to catch the attention of everybody about this incident and its unexpected outcome. Now is the time to debate this question : should a reserve Dbag be able to be extracted in any body position ? What can be changed in the rig design to give more chance for the extraction ?
Years ago skydiving rigs had their flaps able to open completely with no sewn corners, that makes the main and reserve Dbags more prone to fall down in case of a premature release of the pin. On the other hand, having the Dbag encased in the corners garantees that there is no extraction before a completely extended bridle and inflated pilot chute preventing that way an out of stage deployment. Is it possible that by solving a problem designers have created another one. This is the type of discussion I would like to see. After all, that kind of situation can happen to any of us. Debating about this is maybe trying to find how to avoid the same situation.


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Jul 7, 2012, 9:43 PM
Post #23 of 63 (4049 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

Someone already has addressed your follow on concerns above. It will differ from manufacturer to manufacturer slightly no doubt but the real impossibility to calculate or test for is those rigs that have had reserves shoehorned into the pack tray and have exceeded the specifications of the manufacturer. I don't think designers have created the problem at all, riggers who cram parachutes into a rig to the point that these excessive forces are required to extract the reserve are at fault IMHO.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jul 8, 2012, 1:23 AM
Post #24 of 63 (4021 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Someone already has addressed your follow on concerns above. It will differ from manufacturer to manufacturer slightly no doubt but the real impossibility to calculate or test for is those rigs that have had reserves shoehorned into the pack tray and have exceeded the specifications of the manufacturer. I don't think designers have created the problem at all, riggers who cram parachutes into a rig to the point that these excessive forces are required to extract the reserve are at fault IMHO.

Well, FWIW, riggers who do that may be one link in the chain, but they're also serving another link: their customers, who buy the reserve/canopy combinations requiring the riggers to choose between shoehorning canopies into containers, or turning their customers away. So if yours is a call to action directed to riggers, should it not be equally be directed to the owners of such rigs?


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Jul 8, 2012, 1:25 AM)


RiggerLee

Jul 8, 2012, 2:08 AM
Post #25 of 63 (4014 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] Scary reserve Dbag hand extraction [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Actually there's a lot of people that play there part in this problem. My hand is raised among them.

Manufactorer that builds and sizes rigs too tight or builds the patern set based on esthetics rather then functionality.

The instructor/coach that convences the student that they cant posably fly unless they get such and such a size rig. "Here, try mine on."

The other instructor/coach that convinces them that they must have at least a XXX size canopy to be safe.

The dealer that sells the system, combination of main, reserve, and container at the ragged edge of compatability or beyond in order to make the sell.

The rigger that gets handed this nightmare and has to make it fit. I'm in this catigory. Yep, over the years I've learned to pack some really tight rigs, and I've gotten good at it. I pitty the fool that has to follow me on some of these things.

And in the end what do you have? A brick that is hands down too tight. It looks like shit especicaly if an "adverage" rigger gets a hold of it. It winds up with permanant wrinkles, and fucked up stiffeners, and damaged riser covers, and risers comeing out, and flaps not staying closed, and a whole world of other lements that range from estetic to comfert to functional. Right up there to real no shit problems like what you're seeing in your vid. It's the big, "We all agree not to talk about it secret" that nobody wants to bring up because it pisses every body off. Try telling some skygod that he can't jump his $5000 rig. Try telling him you wont repack it. Try telling him he has to buy a larger reserve, larger main, way larger container to hold all of them. All of this in spite of the fact that he would actually be happier with all of the above.

This is actually food for about half a dozen threads not one. And guess what there's a couple of dozen threads on it allready. But we're probbable going to have to bounce a few people before any thing changes. Some nice high profile ones. Some big names. On vid no less so it can be spread all over you tube before any thing fundomentally changes. The sad thing is that all of the problems are fixable. There are designs out there right now that address all of this. There is give and take in all design decisions and some of these ideas have come in and out of fashion over the years, like hesitator loops, that can address some of these issues. But a lot of the fundomental problems will not resolve them selves till we decide to behave rationally.

Lee


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