Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing.

 

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 27, 2012, 1:01 PM
Post #1 of 38 (4177 views)
Shortcut
USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. Can't Post

In an email today.

"Watch Out for a Pilot Chute-In-Tow Malfunction!
USPA recently learned of another reported pilot-chute-in-tow malfunction that occurred when a main closing pin pierced the pilot chute bridle and locked the main container closed. Luckily, the reserve canopy deployed successfully, and the jumper was able to land safely, even though the bridle had entangled with the reserve risers.

This makes a total of six known cases of this type of malfunction. USPA first learned of this issue in 2009 and again in 2010 and each time asked the Parachute Industry Association and the container manufacturers to look into bridle designs for possible changes (see Keep an Eye Out in the November 2009 and November 2010 issues of Parachutist). Careful routing of the bridle can help to lower the chances of this type of malfunction, although in the latest case, the jumper was sure she had routed the bridle in such a way that the pin should not have been able to pierce the bridle. Several different container models have experienced this malfunction, so the issue is not just with one type of container."


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 27, 2012, 1:07 PM
Post #2 of 38 (4153 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ridestrong] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

I started rerouting my bridle as recomended by UPT awhile back, so there should be no plausible way for a bridle piercing.

Looking to add the link for the routing info, haven't found it yet.... if anyone else can beat me to it.

ETA: only down side I can see to the different routing method is that you can't visualize the pc 'cocking indicator' without pulling out the bridle from its packed position.


(This post was edited by ridestrong on Jun 27, 2012, 1:11 PM)


dgw  (C License)

Jun 27, 2012, 3:13 PM
Post #3 of 38 (4085 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ridestrong] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

Me too, although my understanding is that UPT pitch it as an alternative, rather than a recommended closing sequence. I will, no doubt, be corrected if I am wrong...

The additional advantage, in my view, is that you don't have to be concerned with leaving the 'slack' above the pin / closing loop, which is another potential source of a pcit if omitted.


Ron

Jun 27, 2012, 5:12 PM
Post #4 of 38 (4018 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ridestrong] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

Amazing how we have to learn the same shit over and over.

This has happened before, I was warned about it in the 90's


DaVinciflies

Jun 27, 2012, 8:19 PM
Post #5 of 38 (3954 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ridestrong] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

Just another reason to jump a pullout.


Divalent  (C 40494)

Jun 30, 2012, 1:39 PM
Post #6 of 38 (3751 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ron] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm trying to figure out how this can occur.

How exactly does the pin end up piercing the bridle?

And what is the alternative closing technique/bridle routing that prevents it?

I normally don't reposition the pin after inserting it, so generally the curve of the pin is going out to the left and curving upward towards the top of the rig. Which means the blunt end of the pin is visible (and the bridle is to the right of it; running straight up/down). On my rig (and probably on all others) I could position the pin so that the curve is, say, going up and curving to the right, and so would always be hidden by the bridle material on top.

IOW, normally it looks like this \_o
but I could rotate it 90 degrees CW. would that make a difference?

Any help appreciated


PiLFy  (A License)

Jun 30, 2012, 2:22 PM
Post #7 of 38 (3731 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ridestrong] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is UPT's alternate bridal routing link:
http://unitedparachutetechnologies.com/...STRUCT-027_Rev-0.pdf

Dunno. Maybe it's my inexperience talking, but it seems extremely rare (& more of a fluke). 3-4 million skydives per year since '09, & only six confirmed instances of this? I'm hesitant to start monkeying around w/my bridal's routing, yet. It makes me wonder if these six jumpers were mashing their rigs against the bulkheads on the way up. What do the old dawgs say?


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jun 30, 2012, 2:23 PM
Post #8 of 38 (3730 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Divalent] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm trying to figure out how this can occur.
Me too.Crazy


In reply to:
And what is the alternative closing technique/bridle routing that prevents it?
I'm guessing it's coming and going from the bottom of the flaps instead of coming out the top and going to the bottom. For a long time that's how we always closed containers. I don't remember when the manufacturers changed the bridle routing. It certainly works either way.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jun 30, 2012, 3:30 PM
Post #9 of 38 (3704 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JohnMitchell] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm trying to figure out how this can occur.
Me too.Crazy
You most probably know this John, but for others

The accepted reason behind why this happens is that some people like everything tight, including their bridle above the pin. There should be slack above the pin,before it goes and gets tucked in under the side flap. Some bridles/rigs have a piece of Velcro to try and force jumper to leave enough slick, others don't.

If this isn't clear, ask a rigger at your dz.


Divalent  (C 40494)

Jun 30, 2012, 4:41 PM
Post #10 of 38 (3688 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Remster] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't envision how this could lead to the pin piercing the bridle.

I could see how it might lead to a PCIT if the bridle leading into the container is so tight that the PC can't pull enough slack to allow the pin to get out of the closing loop.

Is it that when the bridle reaches extension, and rotates the pin (so that the curve of the pin is now curved upwards with respect to the plane of the container surface), that if the end of the pin is under a taut bridle, it might have enough force to pierce it as it is rotating up?

That's about the best I can do with what you said. And if that is the case, the only fix needed (for both scenarios) is just to ensure that there is enough slack on the bag side of the pin.


(This post was edited by Divalent on Jun 30, 2012, 4:42 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jun 30, 2012, 5:00 PM
Post #11 of 38 (3676 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JohnMitchell] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm trying to figure out how this can occur.
Me too.Crazy


In reply to:
And what is the alternative closing technique/bridle routing that prevents it?
I'm guessing it's coming and going from the bottom of the flaps instead of coming out the top and going to the bottom. For a long time that's how we always closed containers. I don't remember when the manufacturers changed the bridle routing. It certainly works either way.

Some wingsuiters have been closing their rigs with the "new" UPT method for a long time. Chuck Blue turned me on to this several years ago, and the mechanics of it have no downside.


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Jun 30, 2012, 8:18 PM
Post #12 of 38 (3646 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PiLFy] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen it a couple times and mine werent any of the ones uspa mentions. So I suspect it's happened even more. I never saw it happening until the fad in recent years of covering the pin with the bridle - that's why I always leave my pin off to the side of the bridle.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jun 30, 2012, 10:14 PM
Post #13 of 38 (3627 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Some wingsuiters have been closing their rigs with the "new" UPT method for a long time. Chuck Blue turned me on to this several years ago, and the mechanics of it have no downside.
I'm switching over next pack job. I never understood why they started bringing it out the top anyway. Smile


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Jul 1, 2012, 4:10 AM
Post #14 of 38 (3592 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JohnMitchell] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm trying to figure out how this can occur.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Me too.


It is pretty simple.

The main flaps have become tighter and more compressive to the bridal/pin assembly.
So when the pin rotates during via a pilot chute extraction. the flap becomes a "Backing Board" if you will.

If you look at the picture in the UPT link, you will notice the distance of the velcro tab (which is now covered) and the pin relevant to the mouth of the main tuck tab closure.

This short distance and and bridal/pin compression by the flap is the culprit IMHO.

So if you have a rig that has the same issues, you might want to change to a below the flap packing method on the next pack job.


BS,
MEL


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 1, 2012, 5:44 AM
Post #15 of 38 (3571 views)
Shortcut
Re: [masterrigger1] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

Love me some pullout. Smile


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jul 1, 2012, 5:53 AM
Post #16 of 38 (3567 views)
Shortcut
Re: [masterrigger1] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

if your main flap is very tight against the pin, the pin will not stand immediately and swing up towards the end of the pin first.

if you insist on smily face myth and the pin swings up and tip catches the bridal it can create a container lock. tip of the pin should point away from the bridal.


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Jul 1, 2012, 8:36 AM
Post #17 of 38 (3528 views)
Shortcut
Re: [stayhigh] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
if your main flap is very tight against the pin, the pin will not stand immediately and swing up towards the end of the pin first.

First, you are confused to think that the pin is swinging "up".

It is swinging or rotating around into the 90 degree fold caused by the velcro mating and the main flap.

Think about it like this.
The compression of the main flap, along with the 90 degree turn of the bridle, makes a little fold that sits just in front on the pin.
The main pin flap will not allow that fold to move, so the pin sometimes just goes throgh it.

Another thing to think about is that we never had this issue with looser fitting main flaps.

Now we do.

MEL


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jul 1, 2012, 9:21 AM
Post #18 of 38 (3518 views)
Shortcut
Re: [diablopilot] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Love me some pullout. Smile
Yeah, I've got about 3K pullout jumps, Racers and Infinities. But Spot and the gang said I had to have a throw out if I wanted to fly like a bird (man). That and a shoulder surgery made me make the switch. So far, so good. Smile


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jul 1, 2012, 9:23 AM
Post #19 of 38 (3515 views)
Shortcut
Re: [masterrigger1] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So if you have a rig that has the same issues, you might want to change to a below the flap packing method on the next pack job.


BS,
MEL
Thanks. I think I will go back to how we did it 25 years ago. Wink


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Jul 1, 2012, 10:13 AM
Post #20 of 38 (3501 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JohnMitchell] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Thanks. I think I will go back to how we did it 25 years ago.

Wow! Pins and Cones!

MEL


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jul 1, 2012, 10:53 AM
Post #21 of 38 (3497 views)
Shortcut
Re: [masterrigger1] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Thanks. I think I will go back to how we did it 25 years ago.

Wow! Pins and Cones!
LaughLaugh I said "25", not "35"!Tongue


drop-bear  (B License)

Jul 3, 2012, 10:24 PM
Post #22 of 38 (3272 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PiLFy] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49Kw0ZafG4c, from about 3:25 onwards in this UPT video it shows the bridle routing method.

Also like the trick of putting your knee through the shoulder strap, hadn't seen that one before.


strife

Jul 24, 2012, 1:56 AM
Post #23 of 38 (3047 views)
Shortcut
Re: [drop-bear] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

I wondered how common this issue would be and was surprised to see it turn up as an incident in our Safety Report in the Oz Skydiver magazine

http://en.calameo.com/...00014177206dc52c0a8b


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Jul 24, 2012, 10:06 AM
Post #24 of 38 (2940 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ridestrong] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

Flying High Manufacturing and (I believe) Parachutes de France have never stopped using that method. Flying High also has a small square of hook and one of pile just above the pin adjacent to each other to accomplish the guaranteed slack that the velcro on the top flap achieves on other rigs.


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Jul 24, 2012, 2:17 PM
Post #25 of 38 (2843 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PiLFy] USPA update on another pilot chute-in-tow due to bridle piercing. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Dunno. Maybe it's my inexperience talking, but it seems extremely rare (& more of a fluke). 3-4 million skydives per year since '09, & only six confirmed instances of this? I'm hesitant to start monkeying around w/my bridal's routing, yet. It makes me wonder if these six jumpers were mashing their rigs against the bulkheads on the way up. What do the old dawgs say?

Only six REPORTED cases. I know of two more which occurred to friends. I am fairly confident that neither were reported.

The USPA incident reporting system is effectively dead. (See the "Gearing Up" editorial in the July 2012 issue of Parachutist. http://parachutistonline.com/...aring_up/july%202012) It cannot be used to tell us about the rates of anything!


First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : General Skydiving Discussions

 


Search for (options)