Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
new distance rules

 


raymod2  (D 25630)

Jun 19, 2012, 11:12 AM
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new distance rules Can't Post

The new distance rules used at the 2012 USPA Nationals of Canopy Piloting required the pilot to drag water through the entry gate and stay below an additional four gates which extended 50 meters (164 feet) down the course.

The purpose of this rule change was to limit the distances attained by the competitors so that course requirements could be relaxed resulting in more options for venues. Therefore, it is instructive to compare the maximum distances attained in each round between 2011 (old rules) and 2012 (new rules):

Code:
2011: 134.15m (Batsch), 136.13m (Batsch), 110.34m (Batsch)
2012: 143.27m (Batsch), 136.45m (Dellibac), 151.95m (Batsch)

It has been my observation that the new rules certainly make the distance event more difficult but they do not achieve its stated purpose. Dragging water erodes the margin of safety but does not significantly limit entry gate speeds. The pilot simply aims for the water level rather than the top of the gates. The additional gates also did not limit popping up at all. Those pilots who had powerful runs were still able to pop up significantly after the 5th gate.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Jun 19, 2012, 11:40 AM
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I'd argue that we'd have gone significantly further (especially given the downwind) under the old rules.

In order to provide an apples to apples comparison you'd need to include elevation, wind direction, and wind strength. Even then you wouldn't be factoring in the continued improvements of pilots (especially under new wings).

Ian


raymod2  (D 25630)

Jun 19, 2012, 12:20 PM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] new distance rules [In reply to] Can't Post

The elevation at Spaceland is 50 ft MSL and the elevation at Skydive the Farm is 850 ft MSL. Not a big difference and most consider them both to be roughly at sea level. Wind conditions are certainly a factor and pilot skill increases every year. Here is some more data to give more context. This time I have included all three years at Spaceland:

Code:
2009: 140.31m (Cleary), 156.73m (Windmiller), 124.88m (Watkins)
2010: 143.60m (Batsch), 105.90m (Windmiller), 113.65m (Tagle)
2011: 134.15m (Batsch), 136.13m (Batsch), 110.34m (Batsch)
2012: 143.27m (Batsch), 136.45m (Dellibac), 151.95m (Batsch)

I don't remember the wind conditions every year but there was definitely one year that we had some very strong downwind conditions during distance (pushing 15mph). The fastest downwind we had this year was about 8mph.


wildcard451  (D License)

Jun 19, 2012, 1:30 PM
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If I remember right, last year (2011) at spaceland, we had a largely quartering headwind approaching comp limits in distance on at least the last day.


dima39  (D 177246)

Jun 19, 2012, 1:52 PM
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Re: [wildcard451] new distance rules [In reply to] Can't Post

Any chance to cancel dragging for WPC-2012 in Dubai?


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jun 20, 2012, 7:24 AM
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the new rule sucks ass.

max distance should be max distance.
not ohhhh, we'll limit your shit cuz we can't suppport it.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Jun 20, 2012, 7:43 AM
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Re: [stayhigh] new distance rules [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
the new rule sucks ass.

I disagree. I'm curious, how many comps you've done under the new rules?

While not the intended purpose of the new rules, personally I'm in favor of anything that limits the pilots ability to pop up too high.

IMO In recent years distance largely became the event that rewarded the pilot who was willing to pummel in from 40 ft.

Under the old rules, 2 days of distance training = really sore body. Under the new rules a pilot can train distance, hard, all day for multiple days running.

Personally, I think the new rules are fun and challenging (while different).

Ian


raymod2  (D 25630)

Jun 20, 2012, 12:50 PM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] new distance rules [In reply to] Can't Post

Ian, did you watch Nick's runs? With the new rules he is popping up just as high as he ever did. And he wasn't the only one. All the top distance runs had significant pop-up.

For what it's worth, I don't think you need to pop up to train distance. Working on entry gate speed is far more important. The pop-up probably adds 50 to 75 feet at most (depending on wind conditions) and you can save that for the meet.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Jun 20, 2012, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Ian, did you watch Nick's runs? With the new rules he is popping up just as high as he ever did. And he wasn't the only one. All the top distance runs had significant pop-up.

Yes, in a downwind. Now, I do think that begs the question on how effective the new rules are at limiting distance in downwind conditions since that 5 gate comes up so quickly and we still have lots of energy to pop up in that scenario.

There is no question though that we would be going a lot further, in all conditions, under the old rules.

I think (this is just a guess) that we'll see amendments that will prohibit pop-ups past 5 foot regardless of where you are on the course to keep the distances manageable to venue hosts.

What will happen to the water drag? Well, that's anyone's guess at this stage. I can't say I'd be surprised if it eventually goes the way of the Dodo.

Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Jun 20, 2012, 1:00 PM)


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 20, 2012, 2:49 PM
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The absolute worse is when you pop up just a bit too far and when you're 10ft off the ground and coming in HOT downwind you realize that you just ran out of canopy. Feet and knees together, ready to PLF and holding the canopy just on the edge of a stall...BAM. Had a couple that smooth knocked the wind out of me, amazingly I never got hurt doing that!


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jun 20, 2012, 7:55 PM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] new distance rules [In reply to] Can't Post

zero, I competed zero times total.
I'm a pure spectator.

As a spectator I loved old rules, seeing people going big, and gaining incredible height out of the gate and crashing down yet able to walk away.

New rules are more technical and safer for the competitors but to the spectator it looks boring. Big boy challenge at Mile High, now that was something worth while to see.

It is called distance event, hit the gate, and go far as your skill and canopy will take you. That is the shit.

Not hit the gate, than drag and stay low and pop up if you hadn't dip the toe too hard on water.


(This post was edited by stayhigh on Jun 20, 2012, 7:58 PM)


DaVinciflies

Jun 20, 2012, 8:59 PM
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In reply to:
zero, I competed zero times total.
I'm a pure spectator.

As a spectator I loved old rules, seeing people going big, and gaining incredible height out of the gate and crashing down yet able to walk away.

Sometimes.....I don't think any of us want to see another Warren.


Guinness_fr  (D 109579)

Jun 21, 2012, 1:54 AM
Post #13 of 13 (822 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] new distance rules [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think (this is just a guess) that we'll see amendments that will prohibit pop-ups past 5 foot regardless of where you are on the course to keep the distances manageable to venue hosts.

Instead of gate 5, I suggested to place a 1,5m sensor around the 80m or 90m mark in order to really limit the popups. If you vert that sensor you could still have the 80m or 90m score instead of a zero.
Similiarly, I'd love to have the entry gate sensor lowered to about 0,2m instead of the water drag because having your foot bounce a bit just at the entry gate and getting a zero is annoying Laugh



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