Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
new distance rules

 


raymod2  (D 25630)

Jun 19, 2012, 11:12 AM
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new distance rules Can't Post

The new distance rules used at the 2012 USPA Nationals of Canopy Piloting required the pilot to drag water through the entry gate and stay below an additional four gates which extended 50 meters (164 feet) down the course.

The purpose of this rule change was to limit the distances attained by the competitors so that course requirements could be relaxed resulting in more options for venues. Therefore, it is instructive to compare the maximum distances attained in each round between 2011 (old rules) and 2012 (new rules):

Code:
2011: 134.15m (Batsch), 136.13m (Batsch), 110.34m (Batsch)
2012: 143.27m (Batsch), 136.45m (Dellibac), 151.95m (Batsch)

It has been my observation that the new rules certainly make the distance event more difficult but they do not achieve its stated purpose. Dragging water erodes the margin of safety but does not significantly limit entry gate speeds. The pilot simply aims for the water level rather than the top of the gates. The additional gates also did not limit popping up at all. Those pilots who had powerful runs were still able to pop up significantly after the 5th gate.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Jun 19, 2012, 11:40 AM
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I'd argue that we'd have gone significantly further (especially given the downwind) under the old rules.

In order to provide an apples to apples comparison you'd need to include elevation, wind direction, and wind strength. Even then you wouldn't be factoring in the continued improvements of pilots (especially under new wings).

Ian


raymod2  (D 25630)

Jun 19, 2012, 12:20 PM
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The elevation at Spaceland is 50 ft MSL and the elevation at Skydive the Farm is 850 ft MSL. Not a big difference and most consider them both to be roughly at sea level. Wind conditions are certainly a factor and pilot skill increases every year. Here is some more data to give more context. This time I have included all three years at Spaceland:

Code:
2009: 140.31m (Cleary), 156.73m (Windmiller), 124.88m (Watkins)
2010: 143.60m (Batsch), 105.90m (Windmiller), 113.65m (Tagle)
2011: 134.15m (Batsch), 136.13m (Batsch), 110.34m (Batsch)
2012: 143.27m (Batsch), 136.45m (Dellibac), 151.95m (Batsch)

I don't remember the wind conditions every year but there was definitely one year that we had some very strong downwind conditions during distance (pushing 15mph). The fastest downwind we had this year was about 8mph.


wildcard451  (D License)

Jun 19, 2012, 1:30 PM
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If I remember right, last year (2011) at spaceland, we had a largely quartering headwind approaching comp limits in distance on at least the last day.


dima39  (D 177246)

Jun 19, 2012, 1:52 PM
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Any chance to cancel dragging for WPC-2012 in Dubai?


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jun 20, 2012, 7:24 AM
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the new rule sucks ass.

max distance should be max distance.
not ohhhh, we'll limit your shit cuz we can't suppport it.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Jun 20, 2012, 7:43 AM
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Quote:
the new rule sucks ass.

I disagree. I'm curious, how many comps you've done under the new rules?

While not the intended purpose of the new rules, personally I'm in favor of anything that limits the pilots ability to pop up too high.

IMO In recent years distance largely became the event that rewarded the pilot who was willing to pummel in from 40 ft.

Under the old rules, 2 days of distance training = really sore body. Under the new rules a pilot can train distance, hard, all day for multiple days running.

Personally, I think the new rules are fun and challenging (while different).

Ian


raymod2  (D 25630)

Jun 20, 2012, 12:50 PM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] new distance rules [In reply to] Can't Post

Ian, did you watch Nick's runs? With the new rules he is popping up just as high as he ever did. And he wasn't the only one. All the top distance runs had significant pop-up.

For what it's worth, I don't think you need to pop up to train distance. Working on entry gate speed is far more important. The pop-up probably adds 50 to 75 feet at most (depending on wind conditions) and you can save that for the meet.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Jun 20, 2012, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Ian, did you watch Nick's runs? With the new rules he is popping up just as high as he ever did. And he wasn't the only one. All the top distance runs had significant pop-up.

Yes, in a downwind. Now, I do think that begs the question on how effective the new rules are at limiting distance in downwind conditions since that 5 gate comes up so quickly and we still have lots of energy to pop up in that scenario.

There is no question though that we would be going a lot further, in all conditions, under the old rules.

I think (this is just a guess) that we'll see amendments that will prohibit pop-ups past 5 foot regardless of where you are on the course to keep the distances manageable to venue hosts.

What will happen to the water drag? Well, that's anyone's guess at this stage. I can't say I'd be surprised if it eventually goes the way of the Dodo.

Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Jun 20, 2012, 1:00 PM)


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 20, 2012, 2:49 PM
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The absolute worse is when you pop up just a bit too far and when you're 10ft off the ground and coming in HOT downwind you realize that you just ran out of canopy. Feet and knees together, ready to PLF and holding the canopy just on the edge of a stall...BAM. Had a couple that smooth knocked the wind out of me, amazingly I never got hurt doing that!


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jun 20, 2012, 7:55 PM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] new distance rules [In reply to] Can't Post

zero, I competed zero times total.
I'm a pure spectator.

As a spectator I loved old rules, seeing people going big, and gaining incredible height out of the gate and crashing down yet able to walk away.

New rules are more technical and safer for the competitors but to the spectator it looks boring. Big boy challenge at Mile High, now that was something worth while to see.

It is called distance event, hit the gate, and go far as your skill and canopy will take you. That is the shit.

Not hit the gate, than drag and stay low and pop up if you hadn't dip the toe too hard on water.


(This post was edited by stayhigh on Jun 20, 2012, 7:58 PM)


DaVinciflies

Jun 20, 2012, 8:59 PM
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In reply to:
zero, I competed zero times total.
I'm a pure spectator.

As a spectator I loved old rules, seeing people going big, and gaining incredible height out of the gate and crashing down yet able to walk away.

Sometimes.....I don't think any of us want to see another Warren.


Guinness_fr  (D 109579)

Jun 21, 2012, 1:54 AM
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In reply to:
I think (this is just a guess) that we'll see amendments that will prohibit pop-ups past 5 foot regardless of where you are on the course to keep the distances manageable to venue hosts.

Instead of gate 5, I suggested to place a 1,5m sensor around the 80m or 90m mark in order to really limit the popups. If you vert that sensor you could still have the 80m or 90m score instead of a zero.
Similiarly, I'd love to have the entry gate sensor lowered to about 0,2m instead of the water drag because having your foot bounce a bit just at the entry gate and getting a zero is annoying Laugh


raymod2  (D 25630)

May 28, 2014, 1:35 PM
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Re: [Guinness_fr] new distance rules [In reply to] Can't Post

We now have two more years of data. Here are the top distance runs for the last eight years of Nationals:

year   venue             elevation   rules     best run   pilot 
---- ------ --------- ------- -------- -----
2007 Skydive Chicago 615' MSL 5' gate 347' Tagle
2008 Mile Hi 5055' MSL 5' gate 501' Batsch
2009 Spaceland 50' MSL 5' gate 514' Windmiller
2010 Spaceland 50' MSL 5' gate 471' Batsch
2011 Spaceland 50' MSL 5' gate 447' Batsch
2012 The Farm 850' MSL drag 499' Batsch
2013 Z-Hills 80' MSL drag 407' Batsch
2014 Z-Hills 80' MSL drag 512' Dellibac

You can draw your own conclusions but the data continues to show no evidence that the new rules are limiting distances. Also this year we had two crashes during dragging distance that sent both pilots to the hospital.

I propose that we eliminate the dragging requirement and add another gate (or two) farther down the course to prevent popping up in downwind conditions.


moonjumpster  (D 858)

May 28, 2014, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
I propose that we eliminate the dragging requirement and add another gate (or two) farther down the course to prevent popping up in downwind conditions.

I for one would like to see this idea taken to a competition... I would propose gates at 50m & then at 100m...Upwind /downwind doesn't matter....stay low. VE's between these gates would be immaterial.
When the water drag was introduced, we initially saw pilots approaching the gates slower, but then they learned a new skill set and technique, and the speed has gone right up again.There are more incidents of sore ankles and caught knees than ever before at the moment...good or bad? Does it deter the swooper from attacking(for use of a better word) the gates? I personally don't think so. Would we be able to run distance on shorter courses? Again I don't think so.
I would love to see a trial of this setup, where we again have a little more safety margin above the water, but I believe we would be asking for better canopy control at high speed.
Would a setup like this curb extraordinary distances? Maybe.... but a new skill set would be learned and mastered very quickly.

My 2c!


(This post was edited by moonjumpster on May 28, 2014, 10:56 PM)


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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May 29, 2014, 6:53 AM
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Dan,

I don't disagree we are getting better at the new rules and squeezing more out of them, but 'traditional' runs recently BLOW the new school rules out of the water for distances (700+ feet). The new rules, without a doubt, are limiting distances (although you can argue that it's not by as much as people wanted/thought).

I would agree that adding another gate further down the course would limit distances even further though. Removing the water touch would increase the distances a bit, even with the addition of gate(s) further down the course so I'm not sure removing that would help.

Both pilots who hit the water were attacking the entry gate, by their own admission, and at least one of them said (paraphrased) "I was sure I was going to hit and went for it anyway". This is not a rule problem, and is a pilot problem that would surface if they were attacking the tops of the 5 footers anyway, I believe.

Cool to see the data being collected, I wonder if we'll see further limitations imposed as distances continue to grow.

Ian


raymod2  (D 25630)

May 29, 2014, 10:21 AM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] new distance rules [In reply to] Can't Post

Where have you seen pilots getting over 700' using the traditional distance rules? Nick went 730' during the PD Big Boy Pants in 2011 but conditions were ideal (5055' MSL with a 14mph downwind). I wasn't aware anyone else had broken 700' during a competition.

My interpretation of "attacking the gate" is when you try to finish your turn as close to the gate as possible. If you get too close it forces a steeper approach. Not ideal but we've all been there at one time or another. With the traditional rules you would aim for the very top of the gate in this scenario. The risk was a vertical extension but it gave you the biggest margin to avoid impact. With the new rules this scenario becomes much more dangerous. There is no margin available to the pilot and a small misjudgement results in a violent impact.

I observed both crashes this year (one from the packing area and the other one from the air). In both cases the pilots ended up on the shore which tells me they had very little vertical speed when they impacted. Based on that I don't think they would have impacted the water under the traditional rules.


(This post was edited by raymod2 on May 29, 2014, 10:21 AM)


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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May 29, 2014, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Where have you seen pilots getting over 700' using the traditional distance rules? Nick went 730' during the PD Big Boy Pants in 2011 but conditions were ideal (5055' MSL with a 14mph downwind). I wasn't aware anyone else had broken 700' during a competition.

Nick just did it twice recently in NZ. Once under the Petra, and once under the new Leia wing (I believe). Last year at Klatovy the last round of distance was "old rules" everyone extended their swoop 30-40 meters on that round alone.

Quote:
I observed both crashes this year (one from the packing area and the other one from the air). In both cases the pilots ended up on the shore which tells me they had very little vertical speed when they impacted. Based on that I don't think they would have impacted the water under the traditional rules.

Fair point, but I've seen people die from impact under the old rules, and have had my hardest water strike to date (in Raeford) under the old rules. I've seen Nick smash in on his belly doing speed, Curt has hit, Bobo has hit, etc. All amazing pilots, all pushing hard. To me, that's the piece that the rule isn't going to take away. Pushing hard is always is the factor imo.

Making a pilot touch water before the gate shortens the swoop approximately half a speed course (if you think about the best runs there, we are descending through the entry and typically getting to water level "mid" course).

Good seeing you at Nationals again....and good discussion :)

Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on May 29, 2014, 10:32 AM)


dqpacker  (D 32043)

May 30, 2014, 8:24 AM
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https://www.facebook.com/...30471809&fref=nf


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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May 30, 2014, 11:39 AM
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Yep, and that competitor said "I KNEW shouldn't have gone for the gate. I was too tight, but I said I was going to go for it anyway"

On an unrelated note I predict an increase in these kinds of incidents the next year or two as more and more people are getting extremely highly loaded wings such as Petra's and Peregrines. What was once a "small skip" is now much much more given the speeds and sizes of the wings.

Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on May 30, 2014, 11:42 AM)


vision

May 30, 2014, 11:50 AM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] new distance rules [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yep, and that competitor said "I KNEW shouldn't have gone for the gate. I was too tight, but I said I was going to go for it anyway"

On an unrelated note I predict an increase in these kinds of incidents the next year or two as more and more people are getting extremely highly loaded wings such as Petra's and Peregrines. What was once a "small skip" is now much much more given the speeds and sizes of the wings.

Totally agree...

In the past before the water touch, these incidents were also happening. One thought they could attack the gate and get more distance.

Now you know you have to touch so will be more inclined to set up for more horizontal movement while passing through the gates...

Well that is how I see it anyway.

I also believe the 50m bollard has saved some backs and ankles. But I do not think anyone is disputing that rule being good or not.


Guinness_fr  (D 109579)

Jun 1, 2014, 2:52 AM
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The 50m marker is not preventing popping up so it is rather useless. If the goal is to reduce popping up it should be placed 100m after the entry, and verting it should give a score of 100m instead of zero.


vision

Jun 1, 2014, 5:24 AM
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It does in fact impede popping up to a point where it is not as easy to pop up without scoring a 0/3.

To stay low for 50 metres will inhibit your potential to rise so high, especially if you do not know what you are doing.

Not like it used to be.

I think the 50m bollard is a nice balance between stopping people popping up too much and injuring themselves and allowing people to pop up somewhat to get the longest distance possible.

I think it is only a matter of time before the stay low 100m bollard will be implemented however as the distances are getting huge again.

Just imagine how far the top dogs would be going with the old rules now...



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