Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
cost of USPA Nationals

 


raymod2  (D 25630)

Jun 18, 2012, 3:38 PM
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Has anyone else noticed that the cost of attending the USPA Nationals of Canopy Piloting keeps going up every year? Here is what I have paid over the last 6 years:

Code:
2007 (Skydive Chicago): $237 ($120 registration, $13 jumps) (25 open competitors)
2008 (Mile Hi Skydiving): $324 ($180 registration, $16 jumps) (41 open competitors)
2009 (Skydive Spaceland): $287 ($170 registration, $13 jumps) (50 open competitors)
2010 (Skydive Spaceland): $416 ($200 registration, $24 jumps) (36 open competitors)
2011 (Skydive Spaceland): $416 ($200 registration, $24 jumps) (33 open competitors)
2012 (Skydive The Farm): $460 ($280 registration, $20 jumps) (41 open competitors)

I understand there is a bid process but I also understand that the host DZ always loses money. So it makes me wonder: where is all the money going?


freeflyn  (D License)

Jun 18, 2012, 6:23 PM
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It goes to the legal funds, Stu keeps on suing USPA for allowing Ian to sexual harass him Sly


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 19, 2012, 3:09 AM
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The jump prices are easy to see, it is horribly expensive to circle an Otter full of swoopers to do 4 a pass with enough time between groups. There really isn't another way to do it cheaply with a turbine and be safe, so it will be like that.

Lets not even broach creating a nationals level swoop pond and courses, lets just talk about the staff needed to maintain and run the course. It really takes at least 3 people to maintain the swoop course during the event and keep the course in the rule book. I've run competitions where I was the only guy keeping the course up and it is basically impossible to do by yourself.

Now you've got to pay the judges, get them there and house them and give them kickbacks...well, maybe not the last one, but it is expensive to have certified judges. It is expensive even when some of those judges are donating their time.

Obviously I don't know what The Farm did this year, but if it was anything like how Mile-Hi and Spaceland had things setup, those large tents cost money to rent.

My experience in running a competitive swoop league is that it costs a lot more than you would expect just to keep it running. That's not counting the initial course materials purchase or creation.

If competitors would be OK with downsizing what they expect the event to be, then I think it could be done cheaper.

For instance, if the competition was run with three C182s then the operating costs could be significantly cheaper than having an Otter circle for 20 minutes and the flow of the jumps would be about the same.


frost  (D 25011)

Jun 19, 2012, 7:05 AM
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Re: [AggieDave] cost of USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

Circle for 20 minutes at lower throttle or climb for 16-17? I dont know about "horribly expensive", Dave. I hear you on everything else, although i am not sure that these expenses really have come up in price that much in 6 years to justify doubling the costs of participating. Perhaps they did, i dont know. One thing for certain - it's not getting any cheaper and it's probably keeping some from participating.

You have to pay your way, buy an official USPA suit and take off your sponsor logos to represent US at the World Meet. Shouldn't the organization provide some kind of support, even if partial?

(This post was edited by frost on Jun 19, 2012, 12:31 PM)


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 19, 2012, 7:12 AM
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In reply to:
Circle for 20 minutes at lower throttle or climb for 16-17? I dont know about "horribly expensive", Dave. I hear you on everything else, although i am not sure that these expenses really have come up in price that much to justify doubling the costs of participating.

The last time I played with real operating cost numbers was nearly 10 years ago and it was cheaper to run the 182s. You could be right now, since that was some time ago, but I can only assume that it is more expensive to run both planes regardless of what is going on.


raymod2  (D 25630)

Jun 19, 2012, 8:34 AM
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I've got no problem flying competition rounds in a Cessna 182. We did that at the Last Big Splash and I thought it ran very smoothly. But I have trouble believing the choice of aircraft is a major contributor to rising costs.

It would be nice to know what are the requirements for submitting a bid. Also, does anyone have a copy of the Z-Hills bid that was accepted for 2013? What will be the cost of registration?

There are some active swoopers that I haven't seen at Nationals lately and I also suspect that rising costs are one reason they have quit going.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 19, 2012, 8:47 AM
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In reply to:
I've got no problem flying competition rounds in a Cessna 182. We did that at the Last Big Splash and I thought it ran very smoothly. But I have trouble believing the choice of aircraft is a major contributor to rising costs.

I don't think you'll find a single "smoking gun" in terms of the price increase, but a series of things that cost a little bit more that add up to the total rise. I think that aircraft is one of the reasons. Also, have you priced the electronic timing systems required for the speed round? Sure Al has made his available, but those things are still sort of expensive. I was trying to find an alternative that would still be acceptable to the rules a few years ago and I couldn't find anything off the shelf that would work (for a reasonable price).

Cost was a factor for the 2011 nationals for me, life logistics was the reason for not going to 2012.

Between registration and jump costs, including practice jumps I think I spent around $400 or 500 in 2010, not including lodging, food and sushi. That's not including travel cost, since it was only a 2 hour ride on my motorcycle.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 19, 2012, 9:08 AM
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Re: [frost] cost of USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Circle for 20 minutes at lower throttle or climb for 16-17? I dont know about "horribly expensive

In comparison to running a couple 182s, the Otter would be significantly more expensive. Keep in mind that DZs run Otters for 3 reasons - lift capacity, high altitude capability, and speed. None of those are required for running hop n pops.

I would imagine you could save an easy 25% to 30% off the price of jumps by running 182s.


frost  (D 25011)

Jun 19, 2012, 10:21 AM
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Re: [davelepka] cost of USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Circle for 20 minutes at lower throttle or climb for 16-17? I dont know about "horribly expensive

In comparison to running a couple 182s, the Otter would be significantly more expensive. Keep in mind that DZs run Otters for 3 reasons - lift capacity, high altitude capability, and speed. None of those are required for running hop n pops.

I would imagine you could save an easy 25% to 30% off the price of jumps by running 182s.

We were comparing costs Otter flying for a full altitude load vs Otter dropping 4 passes of swoopers.

Going with a couple of 182s is a great solution. I dont think competitors would object at all, especially the ones stuck on the 3rd and 4th Otter pass and even more so if it brings the price of a competition/practice jump to 14 bucks.


berchtoldaj  (D License)

Jun 19, 2012, 11:16 AM
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Re: [frost] cost of USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

The Zhills bid for 2013 is $300 registration and $20 jumps if my memory suits me correctly. I don't think the costs have doubled in the last 5 years as looking at the figures alone may suggest. Some of the requirements have changed which has contributed somewhat, but the bigger portion of the difference is that I think SDC in 2007 and Spaceland in 2009 bid amounts that were lower than their costs. I would guess this was done because they may have not had, or been provided a detailed understanding of what would be required of them and the financial costs of those requirements.
Spaceland increased their price the second two years once they had made the mistake of loosing money the first time through.
182's are a bit cheaper and I'm a big fan of using them for swoop meets as we did at Last Big Splash. Quicker and more efficient than big turbines for the way we(swoopers) operate. They can also be a logistic nightmare at a dz who is also running full altitude loads. Imagine Zhills with 3 182's of swoopers and 1 or 2 otters running to full altitude at the same time. At some point you start to have too many planes flying around.
Many of the other events(like 4-way for example) are less expensive per competitor partly because your splitting the cost between 250-300 competitors rather than 50-60. If you look at CP cost compared to Style and Acc. which also has lower attendance and higher logistical costs you'll find the registration costs are comparable.
We usually have a meeting after nationals to discuss improvements etc. Last year in Spaceland the concensus was to add Advanced medals across the board, the consensus was to have more judges, these things come at a cost in $.

How do we make it cheaper?
1. 182/206's would help if they can be fit into the dz operations.
2. Having a larger pool of qualified judges would mean that the host may not need to fly in as many certified judges which would lower costs. this isn't directed at any one person, but ask yourself when was the last time you brought out a friend, girlfriend or wife who became a rated judge?
3. Increased attendance. Most of the costs that recouped through registrations are overhead in running the meet and don't increase as attendance rises. You need the same judges, equipment, meet management for 50 competitors as you need for 80.

Just my 2 cents....


DocPop  (C License)

Jun 19, 2012, 12:55 PM
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Re: [berchtoldaj] cost of USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
2. Having a larger pool of qualified judges would mean that the host may not need to fly in as many certified judges which would lower costs. this isn't directed at any one person, but ask yourself when was the last time you brought out a friend, girlfriend or wife who became a rated judge?
.

How does one go about qualifying as a judge?


wildcard451  (D License)

Jun 19, 2012, 1:17 PM
Post #12 of 23 (1578 views)
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Re: [DocPop] cost of USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
2. Having a larger pool of qualified judges would mean that the host may not need to fly in as many certified judges which would lower costs. this isn't directed at any one person, but ask yourself when was the last time you brought out a friend, girlfriend or wife who became a rated judge?
.

How does one go about qualifying as a judge?

Having sex with a swoop competitor is a good start.


Tongue


berchtoldaj  (D License)

Jun 19, 2012, 1:32 PM
Post #13 of 23 (1574 views)
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Re: [DocPop] cost of USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
2. Having a larger pool of qualified judges would mean that the host may not need to fly in as many certified judges which would lower costs. this isn't directed at any one person, but ask yourself when was the last time you brought out a friend, girlfriend or wife who became a rated judge?
.

How does one go about qualifying as a judge?

Here's an article with some good info in it about becoming a judge.
http://parachutistonline.com/...ure/becoming-a-judge
If someone is interested in learning and they're in the southeast, have them get in touch with Eric Florio or myself. If they're out in California/west coast I would get in touch with Marcel who runs the meets out west.


DocPop  (C License)

Jun 19, 2012, 2:28 PM
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Re: [wildcard451] cost of USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

How does one go about qualifying as a judge?

Having sex with a swoop competitor is a good start.


Tongue

Excellent. I have got that one out of the way (naming no names!)
Cool


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 19, 2012, 2:31 PM
Post #15 of 23 (1549 views)
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Re: [DocPop] cost of USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

How does one go about qualifying as a judge?

Having sex with a swoop competitor is a good start.


Tongue

Excellent. I have got that one out of the way (naming no names!)
Cool

Ian doesn't count!
Ok, maybe he does...things might have changed in the last year.


(This post was edited by AggieDave on Jun 19, 2012, 2:43 PM)


DocPop  (C License)

Jun 19, 2012, 5:06 PM
Post #16 of 23 (1519 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] cost of USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

How does one go about qualifying as a judge?

Having sex with a swoop competitor is a good start.


Tongue

Excellent. I have got that one out of the way (naming no names!)
Cool


Ian doesn't count!
Ok, maybe he does...things might have changed in the last year.

Oh well - back to the drawing board!


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jun 19, 2012, 6:08 PM
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Re: [raymod2] cost of USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Has anyone else noticed that the cost of attending the USPA Nationals of Canopy Piloting keeps going up every year? Here is what I have paid over the last 6 years:

Code:
2007 (Skydive Chicago): $237 ($120 registration, $13 jumps) (25 open competitors)
2008 (Mile Hi Skydiving): $324 ($180 registration, $16 jumps) (41 open competitors)
2009 (Skydive Spaceland): $287 ($170 registration, $13 jumps) (50 open competitors)
2010 (Skydive Spaceland): $416 ($200 registration, $24 jumps) (36 open competitors)
2011 (Skydive Spaceland): $416 ($200 registration, $24 jumps) (33 open competitors)
2012 (Skydive The Farm): $460 ($280 registration, $20 jumps) (41 open competitors)

I understand there is a bid process but I also understand that the host DZ always loses money. So it makes me wonder: where is all the money going?

I think if you look at things with a bit more of a critical eye, you won't wonder where the money is going.

This year there were 41 open and 16 advanced class athletes. At $280 each (100% of jump ticket costs presumably went to the DZ), that means USPA took in $15,960.

That $16K had to cover the travel and accommodations for half a dozen USPA reps, meet staff, equipment transportation, and lots of other details you never noticed.

Let's say there were 8 folks that had to travel. Flights averaged probably $400 round trip, hotel rooms $90, rent cars $30 or so, and of course each person had to eat.

Flight at $400 + a hotel at $80 every night for a week is $560, rent car at $30 times a week is $210, and per Diem of let's say $60 is $420 for a week.

That's $1590 per person, or $12720. That leaves $3240 to pay for local judges, equipment transportation, miscellaneous rentals, fees, marketing, medals, blah, blah, blah and more blah, blah, blah.

I have no idea if USPA sent 8 people or more, but I saw at least 8 folks there that I knew were repping for HQ. The local judges had to be paid and took time off work to be there - some probably without vacation pay.

I'm not sure if USPA rented Albert's swoop course gear, but it would be the right thing to do and that stuff is damned expensive.

I could go on and on but hopefully the point is made. Nothing is free.

Given the costs had to be split across just 57 competitors, less than 300 bucks plus jumps wasn't so bad, IMO.

For perspective, this was my first swoop comp and I thought it was exceptionally well organized. I will gladly hand over my money next year.


missbrz  (B License)

Jun 22, 2012, 12:17 PM
Post #18 of 23 (1373 views)
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Re: [wildcard451] cost of USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
2. Having a larger pool of qualified judges would mean that the host may not need to fly in as many certified judges which would lower costs. this isn't directed at any one person, but ask yourself when was the last time you brought out a friend, girlfriend or wife who became a rated judge?
.

How does one go about qualifying as a judge?

Having sex with a swoop competitor is a good start.


Tongue


damn it! I skipped that step. I feel like I missed out! Tongue


But to DocPop, just come to one of FLCPA's swoop comps & we'll start your training! It's that easy. Cool Al mentioned you can talk to him or Eric but he forgot to mention me (thanks Al Tongue)


Eirikr  (D 29742)

Jun 22, 2012, 2:41 PM
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Re: [chuckakers] cost of USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

Long story short - what you think went to "USPA" actually went to the host, and what you think was paid to "USPA reps" actually went to judges and meet management. The only direct cost from competitors to USPA is $10/competitor. Call up Jim Hayhurst @ USPA if you want the nitty gritty on how it all works out.

Quote:
This year there were 41 open and 16 advanced class athletes. At $280 each (100% of jump ticket costs presumably went to the DZ), that means USPA took in $15,960.

USPA does not take in this money, it goes to the host. For more information, you can read through the SCM to understand each party's responsibilities. Look specifically at “sanction fees” and you’ll see what money is received by USPA ($10/competitor). This is a typical model of the sporting industry.

Quote:
That $16K had to cover the travel and accommodations for half a dozen USPA reps, meet staff, equipment transportation, and lots of other details you never noticed.

Sure, there were 7 of us affiliated with USPA, however, during CP Nats we went by different titles. They were Meet Director (Wenger), Chief Judge (Laughlin), Chief of Judge Training (Florio), FAI Judge (Schlichtemeir), Controller (Hayhurst), etc. Oh, and one was even a competitor (Berchtold). Though sometimes he was also “fixer of the blasted timing system”Crazy. The ones that were there on “official USPA duty” weren’t covered by registration costs – they’re pretty much covered by the sanction fees.

Quote:
Let's say there were 8 folks that had to travel. Flights averaged probably $400 round trip, hotel rooms $90, rent cars $30 or so, and of course each person had to eat.

Flight at $400 + a hotel at $80 every night for a week is $560, rent car at $30 times a week is $210, and per Diem of let's say $60 is $420 for a week.

That's $1590 per person, or $12720. That leaves $3240 to pay for local judges, equipment transportation, miscellaneous rentals, fees, marketing, medals, blah, blah, blah and more blah, blah, blah.

I have no idea if USPA sent 8 people or more, but I saw at least 8 folks there that I knew were repping for HQ. The local judges had to be paid and took time off work to be there - some probably without vacation pay.

Nowhere near accurate. Again, the SCM can help you with some of these figures. The rest can be requested from the host (see above about responsibilities). Also, Hans did an exceptional thing and hired more judges than he needed and even helped subsidize the cost of training for more FAI-rated judges to be on the course. But to put it in perspective … we only had 1 judge’s rental car. Oh, and we doubled up in rooms. There were so many independent variables that it would be rather difficult to even come up with an estimate without getting the exact report from the host. And by “local judges” – I’m sure you’re referring to those from Canada, California, Texas, Florida, Connecticut and Virginia. Cool

Quote:
For perspective, this was my first swoop comp and I thought it was exceptionally well organized. I will gladly hand over my money next year.
Glad you enjoyed it!! It’s so cool to see the Advanced class building so much. See you next year in the hillz!


Eirikr  (D 29742)

Jun 22, 2012, 2:42 PM
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Re: [missbrz] cost of USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
But to DocPop, just come to one of FLCPA's swoop comps & we'll start your training! It's that easy. Cool Al mentioned you can talk to him or Eric but he forgot to mention me (thanks Al Tongue)
Quote:

No one can forget you, missbrz.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jun 22, 2012, 4:47 PM
Post #21 of 23 (1329 views)
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Re: [Eirikr] cost of USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Long story short - what you think went to "USPA" actually went to the host, and what you think was paid to "USPA reps" actually went to judges and meet management. The only direct cost from competitors to USPA is $10/competitor. Call up Jim Hayhurst @ USPA if you want the nitty gritty on how it all works out.

Quote:
This year there were 41 open and 16 advanced class athletes. At $280 each (100% of jump ticket costs presumably went to the DZ), that means USPA took in $15,960.

USPA does not take in this money, it goes to the host. For more information, you can read through the SCM to understand each party's responsibilities. Look specifically at “sanction fees” and you’ll see what money is received by USPA ($10/competitor). This is a typical model of the sporting industry.

Quote:
That $16K had to cover the travel and accommodations for half a dozen USPA reps, meet staff, equipment transportation, and lots of other details you never noticed.

Sure, there were 7 of us affiliated with USPA, however, during CP Nats we went by different titles. They were Meet Director (Wenger), Chief Judge (Laughlin), Chief of Judge Training (Florio), FAI Judge (Schlichtemeir), Controller (Hayhurst), etc. Oh, and one was even a competitor (Berchtold). Though sometimes he was also “fixer of the blasted timing system”Crazy. The ones that were there on “official USPA duty” weren’t covered by registration costs – they’re pretty much covered by the sanction fees.

Quote:
Let's say there were 8 folks that had to travel. Flights averaged probably $400 round trip, hotel rooms $90, rent cars $30 or so, and of course each person had to eat.

Flight at $400 + a hotel at $80 every night for a week is $560, rent car at $30 times a week is $210, and per Diem of let's say $60 is $420 for a week.

That's $1590 per person, or $12720. That leaves $3240 to pay for local judges, equipment transportation, miscellaneous rentals, fees, marketing, medals, blah, blah, blah and more blah, blah, blah.

I have no idea if USPA sent 8 people or more, but I saw at least 8 folks there that I knew were repping for HQ. The local judges had to be paid and took time off work to be there - some probably without vacation pay.

Nowhere near accurate. Again, the SCM can help you with some of these figures. The rest can be requested from the host (see above about responsibilities). Also, Hans did an exceptional thing and hired more judges than he needed and even helped subsidize the cost of training for more FAI-rated judges to be on the course. But to put it in perspective … we only had 1 judge’s rental car. Oh, and we doubled up in rooms. There were so many independent variables that it would be rather difficult to even come up with an estimate without getting the exact report from the host. And by “local judges” – I’m sure you’re referring to those from Canada, California, Texas, Florida, Connecticut and Virginia. Cool

Quote:
For perspective, this was my first swoop comp and I thought it was exceptionally well organized. I will gladly hand over my money next year.
Glad you enjoyed it!! It’s so cool to see the Advanced class building so much. See you next year in the hillz!

Actually I didn't expect to be accurate or even close in my explanation or numbers. I was just trying to demonstrate some typical costs to operate an off-premise event.

My point was/is that the price to play was - IMO - very reasonable and that folks who ask where the money goes aren't really considering the true costs associated with putting on a Nats.

Thanks for a great event. You will see me in Z-hills for sure!


berchtoldaj  (D License)

Jun 22, 2012, 5:19 PM
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Re: [chuckakers] cost of USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I'll start by saying this is NOT the actual budget for STF's nationals. I threw this together for those competitors looking for a bit more insight of what some of the costs are that go into this type of event. It certainly isn't complete and not provided to be picked apart for details. Like Eric said, USPA doesn't see the reg. fees, just the sanction fee. And our organization ends up spending much more than the $10 per competitor that the sanction fee brings to the organization.

Revenues: Registrations (60*$280) 16,800

Total Revenues 16,800

Per Diems:
Meet Director 600
Chief Judge($100 per day) 500
5 official judges 2,500
USPA Controller($35 per day) 175
Course director 500

Flights:
Meet Director 400
Chief Judge 400
3 official judges 1,200
2 local judges 0
USPA Controller (uspa covers)

Hotel:
Meet Director 250
Chief Judge 250
5 official judges 750
USPA controller 250

Meals:
Breakfast $5*16people*5days 400
Lunches $5*16people*5days 400

Rental cars: 1 car for a week 400

Misc:
Packing tent at pond 1,000
Timing system 0
PD Markers 0
Timing system(mounting) 200
Misc course materials 500
Banquet 2,500
Bus rental 1,500
Porto Bathrooms 500
USPA medals($20*24) 480

Trip to present to board:

flights 500
hotel 400
car 200
meals 150

Total Expenses 16,905
Balance -105

there are many other things that go into the process to make it happen. If anyone ever wants to know more, any USPA member is welcome to come to the Board meeting and hear how the venues are selected. Per the SCM your also entitled to request copies of the bids if so so feel it necessary.

Hans did a great job this year with our nationals. I doubt he has added up all the costs but as the person who helped him with initial budget, I can tell you I watched him shell out money during the event for things I didn't anticipate.
STF is without a doubt one of the most swoop friendly dz's in the world. Thank you again Hans.


(This post was edited by berchtoldaj on Jun 22, 2012, 6:39 PM)


DocPop  (C License)

Jun 23, 2012, 7:32 AM
Post #23 of 23 (1298 views)
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Re: [missbrz] cost of USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Having sex with a swoop competitor is a good start.


Tongue


damn it! I skipped that step. I feel like I missed out! Tongue


But to DocPop, just come to one of FLCPA's swoop comps & we'll start your training! It's that easy. Cool Al mentioned you can talk to him or Eric but he forgot to mention me (thanks Al Tongue)

Damn! I am on my way. Can't wait for that training!



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