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Vigil2 not working

 

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pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jun 9, 2012, 11:55 AM
Post #1 of 56 (2426 views)
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Vigil2 not working Can't Post

My 09 vigil 2 will not start up. I press the button then all it does is say "Hello" and trun off after 3 seconds. Does anyone know of this problem happening or what could fix it? It only has 18 jumps as well. Can't figure this out.


samlee  (C 107240)

Jun 9, 2012, 11:58 AM
Post #2 of 56 (2412 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

There's an issue with a certain batch of vigil controllers which causes this fault. Contact vigil and they'll get a new controller sent out to you very quickly. Your rigger will be able to swap it over quite easily.


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jun 9, 2012, 12:47 PM
Post #3 of 56 (2382 views)
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Re: [samlee] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Sam. I will post back when I get the part. Cheers


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Jun 9, 2012, 4:30 PM
Post #4 of 56 (2330 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My 09 vigil 2 will not start up. I press the button then all it does is say "Hello" and trun off after 3 seconds. Does anyone know of this problem happening or what could fix it? It only has 18 jumps as well. Can't figure this out.

Just to be clear :

Have you ever turned a Vigil on before ?
The ON sequence is to press the button after every time the red light turns off, that's a total of three times after the initial press.

I am not trying to be a smartass here, but if this is a new to you unit, then this could be a simple RTFM moment that you skipped.

good luck either way !


Anonthemouse  (A License)

Jun 9, 2012, 4:32 PM
Post #5 of 56 (2329 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

RTFM as in 'Read The Fucking Manual'?


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jun 9, 2012, 5:07 PM
Post #6 of 56 (2307 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks got 150 jumps on one. just downsized and bought all new gear. second hand 09 vigil just recently acquired and has faulted in this way. it worked when i got it so i am not holding this to the seller. couldnt have predicted this.
much appreciated
no offence taken


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 9, 2012, 7:07 PM
Post #7 of 56 (2268 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My 09 vigil 2 will not start up. I press the button then all it does is say "Hello" and trun off after 3 seconds. Does anyone know of this problem happening or what could fix it? It only has 18 jumps as well. Can't figure this out.

I have Vigil 2 and a local rigger was moaning that they are total junk and fail all the time. I hadn't previously heard of issues, a week later a friend's Vigil stopped turning on and needed replacing (still under warranty).

It would be interesting to see if there really is a problem with reliability.


virgin-burner

Jun 9, 2012, 7:17 PM
Post #8 of 56 (2262 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
reliability.

-made in germany-


Tongue


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 9, 2012, 7:47 PM
Post #9 of 56 (2246 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post


Dude, I don't believe in the whole brand name buy in. Yes Cypres is the market leader, but that doesn't make it infallible.

I was pretty suspicious of the riggers claim that something like 30% of the Vigils he's seen had failed.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jun 9, 2012, 7:53 PM
Post #10 of 56 (2243 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was pretty suspicious of the riggers claim that something like 30% of the Vigils he's seen had failed.

And you still let him pack your reserve?

Sparky


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 9, 2012, 7:59 PM
Post #11 of 56 (2233 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I was pretty suspicious of the riggers claim that something like 30% of the Vigils he's seen had failed.

And you still let him pack your reserve?

Sparky

He doesn't pack my reserve a friend does.We just happened to be talking about gear and AADs etc.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jun 9, 2012, 8:57 PM
Post #12 of 56 (2207 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

Does it have LCD version 2.20 that's in the recall?
You can check when it is turned on Wink or in the paperwork that came with the unit (if that hasn't been lost before you got the unit). The bulletin also lists serial number range.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Jun 10, 2012, 2:06 PM
Post #13 of 56 (2097 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

Beware riggers who make blanket statments like that. They often have hidden agendas.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 10, 2012, 5:13 PM
Post #14 of 56 (2061 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Beware riggers who make blanket statments like that. They often have hidden agendas.

To be honest I saw it as brand snobbery. Some people appear to get an almost religious devotion to brands (witness the Microsoft/apple debate).

The Cypres is clearly the market leader and if my rig hadn't come with vigil I probably would have bought cypres. One thing that bothers me though about cypres is their algorithm. No algorithm is 100% perfect and you will either get false positives, or false negatives. Clearly vigil falls into the false positive camp. I have this nagging feeling that the total absence of false fires from cypres means that they have chosen the false negative tradeoff. Don't get me wrong everyone has to make the decision when designing their algorithms


Abedy

Jun 12, 2012, 11:18 AM
Post #15 of 56 (1852 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have this nagging feeling that the total absence of false fires from cypres means ...

Any facts that might put a solid base on your posting "nagging feelings"?

Or might it be that years and years of development might have led Airtec to sufficient routines? See the pic attached. It's a different topic but not too far away.
Attachments: air_pressure_variations_small.jpg (113 KB)


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 12, 2012, 6:17 PM
Post #16 of 56 (1760 views)
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Re: [Abedy] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have this nagging feeling that the total absence of false fires from cypres means ...

Any facts that might put a solid base on your posting "nagging feelings"?

Or might it be that years and years of development might have led Airtec to sufficient routines? See the pic attached. It's a different topic but not too far away.

It is impossible for an algorithm to determine the firing conditions in100% of cases. The decision threshold is fixed based on parameters. When a good designer implements an algorithm they will choose what condition to use as fail 'safe'. In the case of an AAD it could be to either fire or not. In addition if your algorithm requires 20 parameters to be met (for example) and it will not fire if they are not met, then in some cases a real save will not happen as the algorithm waits for all conditions to be met.

In systems I led we have had to publish the algorithm false positive rates and we were not allowed false negatives. (Counter terrorism alarm system) the cost of missing an event was deemed to be higher than having to be deploy a response.

It is simply not possible to design these parameters out. As figures aren't published it is possible that cypres simply has a lower false positive than the competition. But we have also seen cases where people have died at reserve linestretch with an AAD. I don't know what brand of AAD, and I also realise there are 100's of other factors to consider.

I hope that helps?


koppel  (F License)

Jun 13, 2012, 12:16 AM
Post #17 of 56 (1718 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Beware riggers who make blanket statments like that. They often have hidden agendas.

To be honest I saw it as brand snobbery. Some people appear to get an almost religious devotion to brands (witness the Microsoft/apple debate).

Bang on the money.

I see issues with both brands. Locked out units in both brands, ground fire issues with both brands seen locally, units not acting as they should during start up.... Looks funny to see a Cypres showing a static figure of 645 with an arrow next to it.

Not saying either are good or bad but that it appears people's false assumptions that one is better than the other are based generally on what brand is popular where peeps jump


flipper  (D 11524)

Jun 13, 2012, 1:02 AM
Post #18 of 56 (1700 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

The Dz I work at is pretty much what i would class as a Vigil Dz, no probs with that - for me I just want the most reliable hassle free AAD

From around the time Vigil became the AAD of choice ( at my Dz )I have seen many conditions or incidents that would definatly steer me away from buying one - at this time

Ie - Wont switch on, wont switch off, many cutter changes / problems, control unit problems, in air activation ( + 1,000ft above activation height )

I dont jump at a Dz that has hundreds and hundreds of jumpers - there is prob around 60 regular jumpers

For me the choice right now is not Vigil, not until they have finalised the product


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 13, 2012, 1:37 AM
Post #19 of 56 (1692 views)
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Re: [flipper] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The Dz I work at is pretty much what i would class as a Vigil Dz, no probs with that - for me I just want the most reliable hassle free AAD

From around the time Vigil became the AAD of choice ( at my Dz )I have seen many conditions or incidents that would definatly steer me away from buying one - at this time

Ie - Wont switch on, wont switch off, many cutter changes / problems, control unit problems, in air activation ( + 1,000ft above activation height )

I dont jump at a Dz that has hundreds and hundreds of jumpers - there is prob around 60 regular jumpers

For me the choice right now is not Vigil, not until they have finalised the product

Thanks that is very interesting. Are you including the service bulletins (e.g. cutters) in your 'problems'? I'm not saying those aren't problems, they are a real pain in the neck and cost a repack at the minimum.


peek  (D 8884)

Jun 13, 2012, 3:39 AM
Post #20 of 56 (1671 views)
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Re: [Abedy] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Or might it be that years and years of development might have led Airtec to sufficient routines? See the pic attached.

Where did that graphic come from? I find it hard to believe that the Cypres is the only AAD that takes pressure sample readings often enough to compensate for changes in the weather. That is one of the most basic functions, to determine ground level before a jump.


flipper  (D 11524)

Jun 13, 2012, 5:31 AM
Post #21 of 56 (1624 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes - Service issues are in there as well as other items .. that to be fair I am not close enough to pass comment on

The most common issue I see at the moment is the unit not switching off ie jumper does final jump of the weekend .. packs and hangs rig in locker ... returns the next week and its still switched on


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 13, 2012, 5:35 AM
Post #22 of 56 (1621 views)
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Re: [koppel] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I see issues with both brands. Locked out units in both brands, ground fire issues with both brands seen locally, units not acting as they should during start up....

No man-made device is perfect, so there will always be problems. In this case, what you have to look at are the rates, and the Cypres has the lowest rate of problems.

Is that due to longevity in the market? Experience based on that longevity and the number of units in the field? Could be, and it could be that Vigil might have a similar rate in time due to the same factors, but the fact remains that at this time, the Cypres gets the nod.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 13, 2012, 5:39 AM
Post #23 of 56 (1617 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
No algorithm is 100% perfect and you will either get false positives, or false negatives. Clearly vigil falls into the false positive camp. I have this nagging feeling that the total absence of false fires from cypres means that they have chosen the false negative tradeoff. Don't get me wrong everyone has to make the decision when designing their algorithms

You see that as a bad thing? Given the nature of the device, I would much rather have an AAD that would rather NOT fire, than one that is trigger-happy.

I spend lots of time in aricraft with the door open, climbnig around outside aircraft in flight, and jumping in groups with other jumpers in close proximity, while I spend very little time above 78mph under 750 ft. If my AAD has any doubt that I'm actually down and dirty and need help, I would rather have to stand-down than fire and possibly make trouble of a situation that was fine in the first place.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Jun 13, 2012, 5:41 AM)


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 13, 2012, 7:16 AM
Post #24 of 56 (1581 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
No algorithm is 100% perfect and you will either get false positives, or false negatives. Clearly vigil falls into the false positive camp. I have this nagging feeling that the total absence of false fires from cypres means that they have chosen the false negative tradeoff. Don't get me wrong everyone has to make the decision when designing their algorithms

You see that as a bad thing? Given the nature of the device, I would much rather have an AAD that would rather NOT fire, than one that is trigger-happy.

I spend lots of time in aricraft with the door open, climbnig around outside aircraft in flight, and jumping in groups with other jumpers in close proximity, while I spend very little time above 78mph under 750 ft. If my AAD has any doubt that I'm actually down and dirty and need help, I would rather have to stand-down than fire and possibly make trouble of a situation that was fine in the first place.

Within reason yes. Obviously the vigil is not like the older generations of aad that were highly unreliable. At present I am comfortable with the level of Vigil 'false positives' that have been reported. If the number of incidents grows I'll change my views. At present I am super vigilant when the door is opened, because that appears to be the.most vulnerable stage.


hackish  (No License)

Jun 13, 2012, 7:59 AM
Post #25 of 56 (1554 views)
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Re: Vigil2 not working [In reply to] Can't Post

I have spoken with many riggers who have seen every brand of AAD out there fail in some way or another. I do not accept that some brand out there always fails while another never fails.

Millions of jumps with AADs are made every year with an exceptionally small percentage of failures. Do not forget these are complex devices and all of them can fail. If it does show a sign of failure as the OP stated do as he did and contact the manufacturer. All the manufacturers I've dealt with were exceptionally helpful in rectifying problems quickly.

-Michael


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