Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
gear sale lost in the mail...responsibility?

 


5.samadhi

Jun 6, 2012, 7:13 AM
Post #1 of 17 (1498 views)
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gear sale lost in the mail...responsibility? Can't Post

I have never had to deal with this so I'm looking for opinions.

Who is responsible for gear lost in the mail if the buyer and seller are both jumpers (not a gear dealer or anything just private seller).

subtle item to be aware of: neither buyer nor seller want to be scammed (the potential is there on either side..."yeah I sent it a week ago" and "yep I never got it" - either buyer or seller could be lying so who should 'take the leap of faith' and pony up money?).


(This post was edited by 5.samadhi on Jun 6, 2012, 7:14 AM)


Skybear

Jun 6, 2012, 7:16 AM
Post #2 of 17 (1481 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] gear sale lost in the mail...responsibility? [In reply to] Can't Post

It 's quite simple. NEVER ship gear without sufficient insurance. This costs a few $ but it 's worth it.

Responsibility then rests with the shipping company.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Jun 6, 2012, 7:28 AM
Post #3 of 17 (1462 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] gear sale lost in the mail...responsibility? [In reply to] Can't Post

Personal opinion:
Shipper unless specified otherwise before hand.

The shipper can ship it with insurance and tracking. (At this stage the buyer is at the mercy of the shipper's choices.)

The shipper can also require additional charges be paid as part of the sale.

If the buyer doesn't want the additional charges, then the buyer is taking responsibility for the possible loss/damage.

But, that's just how I do business.

BTW - consider: if you don't know each other, but can find a mutually known/trusted rigger, arrange to ship the rig (insured) and payment to the rigger. That way a inspection (if wanted/required) can be performed. Once the inspection is done and accepted by the buyer, the rigger can ship the rig one way and the payment the other. (You also need to agree before hand who is paying shipping and for the inspection.)

JW


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 6, 2012, 9:05 AM
Post #4 of 17 (1414 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] gear sale lost in the mail...responsibility? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
who should 'take the leap of faith' and pony up money?).

Neither. Spend the money for an escrow service, like Chutingstar.com. They'll handle the deal for the cost of them doing an inspection on the gear, so you'll pay for that and additional shipping to get it to them in the first place.

Let's say it adds $100 to the deal to use Chutingstar and insure all shipments, that's cheap insurance considering the host of things that could go wrong otherwise. The seller could be straight scamming you and ship nothing, the shipment could get legitimately lost or damaged in transit, or the kicker, the seller ships on time and the shipper does their job 100%, and the item shows up and it turns out that you and the seller disagree on the condition of the item.

The first place I jumped had a sign over manifest that said 'We have no insurance, you pay your money and take your chances'. Buying used gear is a little different, in this case it's actaully, 'You pay your money OR you take your chances'.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Jun 6, 2012, 9:31 AM
Post #5 of 17 (1385 views)
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Re: [Skybear] gear sale lost in the mail...responsibility? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It 's quite simple. NEVER ship gear without sufficient insurance. This costs a few $ but it 's worth it.

Responsibility then rests with the shipping company.

And always ship it via a service that provides shipment tracking. Then the shipper provides a tracking number to the recipient, and it becomes fairly obvious when something is actually in transit vs. just a vague "yeah I sent it" promise. (Within the U.S., I strongly prefer FedEx, UPS would be a second choice. USPS would be my last choice only because their tracking seems to offer significantly less detail than the other two).


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Jun 6, 2012, 11:44 AM
Post #6 of 17 (1315 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] gear sale lost in the mail...responsibility? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have never had to deal with this so I'm looking for opinions.

It's the seller's responsibility to refund the buyer's money and deal with the issue.

Always shipping with tracking + delivery confirmation, getting sufficient insurance, and not listing a contradictory value on customs forms will mean that's a hassle but not a financial pain.

IIRC it took me about 60 days between refunding a European buyer's money and getting USPS to pay off on my insurance (declared value plus all shipping fees) on a Global Express package that was last recorded as going through US customs on its way out.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Jun 6, 2012, 11:47 AM)


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Jun 6, 2012, 1:16 PM
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] gear sale lost in the mail...responsibility? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Drew,

Quote:
It's the seller's responsibility to refund the buyer's money and deal with the issue.

IMO Absolutely.

Not knowing the small details but with 30 yrs working in contract management, these two parties entered into an agreement. One would exchange money for some goods. It looks like the money was exchanged but the goods were not delivered.

IMO it is the seller who has the responsibility of getting the goods to the buyer.

It's called the Uniform Commercial Code.

JerryBaumchen


5.samadhi

Jun 6, 2012, 4:16 PM
Post #8 of 17 (1203 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] gear sale lost in the mail...responsibility? [In reply to] Can't Post

how does one avoid reverse scamming if no tracking was bought?

(buyer claiming he didnt receive when he actually received?)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jun 6, 2012, 6:59 PM
Post #9 of 17 (1166 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] gear sale lost in the mail...responsibility? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
IMO it is the seller who has the responsibility of getting the goods to the buyer.

It's called the Uniform Commercial Code.

That's interesting. I don't know either way, but many of us skydivers would think there to be two separate but related transactions -- someone buys gear off you, and it is theirs, just that it is sitting at your house. Then they pay you to ship it to them any way they like. If a delivery truck with the package drives off a cliff, it's the other guy's canopy at the bottom of the canyon, not yours.

However:
The wikipedia entry on FOB (relating to shipping) is instructive and notes how the UCC has changed, so there are more options when it comes to determining at what point an item becomes the buyer's responsibility and no longer the seller's.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Jun 6, 2012, 9:24 PM
Post #10 of 17 (1121 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] gear sale lost in the mail...responsibility? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
how does one avoid reverse scamming if no tracking was bought?

1. Statistically.

You note that 5% (or whatever) of the packages you send out are lost or claimed to be non-deliveries by your customers and price your goods accordingly.

This is the same way the big box stores deal with leakage.

2. By only shipping things without a tracking number when the loss won't irritate you too much.

For something using valuable closet or drawer space that sells for $25 (not too interesting) + $12 in international shipping (without a tracking number and much more with) I'll just risk it because in effect I'm only out lunch money (shipping) if something happens and still gain more storage space.

Otherwise you don't. Pay up and consider it a life lesson.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Jun 6, 2012, 9:56 PM)


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Jun 6, 2012, 9:34 PM
Post #11 of 17 (1116 views)
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Re: [pchapman] gear sale lost in the mail...responsibility? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Peter,

There may or may not be two ( or one ) different transactions. It all depends upon what was agreed to.

My comments were based on the potential that specifics might not have been discussed.

I have found that the courts ( here in the US ) will almost always go with a 'reasonable' interpretation. In other words, what would be a 'reasonable interpretation' of the agreement should some specifics be not discussed or entered into at the time of the agreement.

The OP did not give us much in the way of details of any discussions between the two parties. Some how I think that there is more to this than we know.

Just my $0.02 on this,

JerryBaumchen


demoknite  (D License)

Jun 6, 2012, 10:13 PM
Post #12 of 17 (1101 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] gear sale lost in the mail...responsibility? [In reply to] Can't Post

Was this a real question or theoretical? Of all the cheesy jokes and anecdotes etc, I have never ever had anything disappear in the mail. I have sent expensive items uninsured and untracked because I have grown to trust them. Not the best idea of course, but I have done so.


Iago  (D License)

Jun 7, 2012, 6:02 AM
Post #13 of 17 (1037 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] gear sale lost in the mail...responsibility? [In reply to] Can't Post

You could try calling the DZs in their area and see if the person showed up with the rig.

Who was the shipper?


(This post was edited by Iago on Jun 7, 2012, 6:04 AM)


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jun 7, 2012, 8:10 AM
Post #14 of 17 (1002 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] gear sale lost in the mail...responsibility? [In reply to] Can't Post

Send it with insurance and signature required. And don't ship without having the money. This still can be an issue if it's delivered to the wrong address, they 'sign' for it but you can't read the signature. But at this point it's the shipping companies issue for not having the right signature. You have proof it was delivered.

I've acted as 'escrow' agent and have used others for a sale.

Before internet a reserve was delivered to my neighbor, who I didn't know. Held it for three weeks and finally took it to the apartment complex office instead of knocking on my door.Mad


5.samadhi

Jun 10, 2012, 10:31 AM
Post #15 of 17 (867 views)
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Re: [demoknite] gear sale lost in the mail...responsibility? [In reply to] Can't Post

the way I see it the canopy is no longer the responsibility of the seller once they successfully get it to the post office and shipped. The contract between the seller and buyer is relying on the dependability of USPS and the fault is with the postal service if the item is lost.

Let me put it like this. If a buyer asked you to give it to his friend to give to him a few days later. And you did this successfully (gave it to friend). And then the friend lost the gear along the way and couldnt give it to him...the seller would not be required to reimburse money.

As long as proof that shipment was made successfully from the seller's end is presented.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jun 10, 2012, 3:57 PM
Post #16 of 17 (803 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] gear sale lost in the mail...responsibility? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the way I see it the canopy is no longer the responsibility of the seller once they successfully get it to the post office and shipped. The contract between the seller and buyer is relying on the dependability of USPS and the fault is with the postal service if the item is lost.

Let me put it like this. If a buyer asked you to give it to his friend to give to him a few days later. And you did this successfully (gave it to friend). And then the friend lost the gear along the way and couldnt give it to him...the seller would not be required to reimburse money.

As long as proof that shipment was made successfully from the seller's end is presented.
Without any tracking number, there is no proof the item was shipped.
As a side note, if it was insured with a tracking number, only the shipper can file a claim.
The "gave it to a friend of his"analogy" does not apply.
How about if you gave it to a friend of yours to deliver?


Iago  (D License)

Jun 10, 2012, 6:23 PM
Post #17 of 17 (780 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] gear sale lost in the mail...responsibility? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you sent it USPS I'd check with the office responsible for the receivers ZIP code. It's been my experience that postal carriers are pretty savy about their routes. They know who is new, who had a roommate move out last month, who's on vacation and having mail held for the next six weeks, etc.

A package that size delivered to a residential address doesn't go unnoticed. If it didn't fit in the mailbox they had to walk it up to the door. That makes it even more memorable. There's a better than average chance that the mail carrier on that route will remember delivering that size package to that address in the last few weeks.

And you're right- if you shipped it, and have the receipt showing that you shipped it, it's not your issue to financially make good on it if it doesn't show up.



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