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Unstable Exits

 

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Namowal  (A 63059)

Jun 3, 2012, 10:26 AM
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Unstable Exits Can't Post

I'm at 42 jumps and, while getting better, I still can't do a stable exit. I understand (or I should say, I'm under the possibly false impression that I understand) the position that I'm supposed to take when I dive out, that I'm supposed to present to the wind etc...
But when I'm out the door I'm flopping all over the place, with the poise of Jerry Lewis.Unsure
I realize there's no magic solution I can get from a forum post, and will rely on coaches and instructors at the DZ to straighten me out...
...but is there anyone out there who was as bad as me at 42 jumps, but eventually got the hang of it?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 3, 2012, 11:40 AM
Post #2 of 56 (3803 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm at 42 jumps and, while getting better, I still can't do a stable exit. I understand (or I should say, I'm under the possibly false impression that I understand) the position that I'm supposed to take when I dive out, that I'm supposed to present to the wind etc...
But when I'm out the door I'm flopping all over the place, with the poise of Jerry Lewis.Unsure
I realize there's no magic solution I can get from a forum post, and will rely on coaches and instructors at the DZ to straighten me out...
...but is there anyone out there who was as bad as me at 42 jumps, but eventually got the hang of it?

Yep.Tongue
I have a magic trick. You know where to find me.


Tuukka  (A License)

Jun 3, 2012, 11:57 AM
Post #3 of 56 (3794 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

You propably mean kicking with your legs or "trying to swim back to the plane"? Don't worry. There are many that have the same problem.
It's part reflex part excitement. Have your tried jumping into sitflying position with your back against the wind?
You don't need to do actual sit flying. just think that you're jumping into a pool. It's propably the most relaxed exit I can think of. Stay relax and still for a few seconds and then flip to your belly. That might help.

(Of course listen to your jumpmasters first , then take advice from the internet. Wink )


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Jun 3, 2012, 1:41 PM
Post #4 of 56 (3744 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

When I had 42 jumps I was still on student status :). There are 2 of us at my dz who took 48 jumps to get off of student status!! And we learned 2 different methods at 2 different DZs 15 years apart :). So if you are off student status you are way ahead of where I was at your number of jumps!!!


format  (B 15348)

Jun 3, 2012, 3:21 PM
Post #5 of 56 (3706 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm 42 jumps old

I remember 42 as my first reserve. How exciting not to die.

Make some magic or whatever to deploy stable.


rwieder  (C 32349)

Jun 3, 2012, 3:23 PM
Post #6 of 56 (3701 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

It doesn't matter how unstable you are when you exit, or your in free fall etc...ARCH fixes EVERYTHING.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Jun 3, 2012, 3:38 PM
Post #7 of 56 (3691 views)
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Re: [rwieder] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

I was not a natural at exits. Sometime around 60 jumps I did 5-7 hop and pops in a row just to work on exits and canopy control. That helped a lot.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 3, 2012, 3:48 PM
Post #8 of 56 (3687 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

I had some of that same problem. My background was a little different from yours; I learned via the static line progression and thus exits were a lot more critical. It took me a good 20 jumps or so to get to the point where I could reliably exit. Until I got there it seemed like there was nothing I could do to keep from rolling onto my side on every single jump.

From otters it's actually a bit tougher because there's no strut to hang from to put you in a good position. Some tricks I've learned:

1) Face forward and on exit do your best to push forward and plant your pelvis on the landing gear tire you see in front of you. You won't be able to do it, but the effort will put you into a good position.

2) Look up at the wing as you fall away. Your body follows your head, and by staring at the wing you'll be pointing your body in the right direction.

3) Try a bunch of different exits to see what works. Poised is probably the best first try. Floating might work for you. Diving is a lot tougher but some people find it more "natural" for some reason.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jun 3, 2012, 4:15 PM
Post #9 of 56 (3674 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I don't know how to diagnose all the possible issues but can ask some questions. (This is for a typical turbine aircraft like the Otter I think you may be using.)

Are you ok on a simple exit like the back to the wind one mentioned? It's a very stable position not requiring a lot of careful limb placement, and doesn't have limbs spread far to the sides, minimizing instability if something isn't symmetrical.

Are you ok if exiting from the floater bar outside the aircraft? If so, that suggests the transition from inside to outside is a problem. You don't have to demonstrate a front float fully outside the aircraft on a front step, but can have head and arms outside, and lower body inside the door and even braced against the back of the door, if you feel you are being peeled off by the wind blast.

Lighter weight people can have a bit harder time pushing out cleanly into the airflow before starting to be twisted, if part of them is outside but a leg is still inside. Are you getting an aggressive launch from inside the plane, to try to clear the door quickly, avoiding being spun from being half in the breeze and half out of it? (You may have seen really aggressive launches by the jumper inside the aircraft in an RW formation jump or AFF instructional jump.)

Or do you get out of the plane cleanly but then are not belly to wind and thus end up rolling or flipping?

Do you flip when diving down aft to chase someone? That's a common issue, where it is better to break the exit down into a clean exit straight out to the side, rolled somewhat to be belly somewhat forward, and only then think about turning and dive aft.

Can you go out with arms tucked up against the chest like an exaggerated mantis position (and legs kicked back tightly to balance the loss of arms in the breeze) ? That would take away the influence of any flapping arms and focus attention on a good arch and being belly to wind.

Or do you present to the wind OK but your body starts a little kicking or flailing for a couple seconds as it isn't yet used to the soft sub-terminal air with "nothing to grab"?

Are you "trying too hard" to get stable and moving arms & legs too much when it would be better to stay a little more still and trust the arch?


muff528  (D 17609)

Jun 3, 2012, 4:16 PM
Post #10 of 56 (3672 views)
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Re: [billvon] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I had some of that same problem. My background was a little different from yours; I learned via the static line progression and thus exits were a lot more critical. It took me a good 20 jumps or so to get to the point where I could reliably exit. Until I got there it seemed like there was nothing I could do to keep from rolling onto my side on every single jump.

From otters it's actually a bit tougher because there's no strut to hang from to put you in a good position. Some tricks I've learned:

1) Face forward and on exit do your best to push forward and plant your pelvis on the landing gear tire you see in front of you. You won't be able to do it, but the effort will put you into a good position.

2) Look up at the wing as you fall away. Your body follows your head, and by staring at the wing you'll be pointing your body in the right direction.

3) Try a bunch of different exits to see what works. Poised is probably the best first try. Floating might work for you. Diving is a lot tougher but some people find it more "natural" for some reason.

What Bill said. Poised/Floating exit and looking up at the plane while falling away was the single biggest help for me. It took a few jumps to correct a "built-in" sub-terminal turn but looking up at the plane seemed to fix it.


Namowal  (A 63059)

Jun 3, 2012, 5:40 PM
Post #11 of 56 (3629 views)
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Re: Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yep.Tongue
I have a magic trick. You know where to find me.
Magic trick? Is this the same trick as how to get to Carnegie Hall (Practice, practice, practice!) Smile
Quote:
When I had 42 jumps I was still on student status :). There are 2 of us at my dz who took 48 jumps to get off of student status!! And we learned 2 different methods at 2 different DZs 15 years apart :). So if you are off student status you are way ahead of where I was at your number of jumps!!!
Quote:
I was not a natural at exits. Sometime around 60 jumps I did 5-7 hop and pops in a row just to work on exits and canopy control. That helped a lot.
Whew! That's what I was hoping to hear. I was afraid it might be bowling ball time for me.
Quote:
From otters it's actually a bit tougher because there's no strut to hang from to put you in a good position. Some tricks I've learned:

1) Face forward and on exit do your best to push forward and plant your pelvis on the landing gear tire you see in front of you. You won't be able to do it, but the effort will put you into a good position.

2) Look up at the wing as you fall away. Your body follows your head, and by staring at the wing you'll be pointing your body in the right direction.

3) Try a bunch of different exits to see what works. Poised is probably the best first try. Floating might work for you. Diving is a lot tougher but some people find it more "natural" for some reason.

I'll try that, if the instructors/coaches are cool with it. I don't remember looking up at the plane, so maybe that's part of the problem.
Quote:
Are you ok if exiting from the floater bar outside the aircraft? If so, that suggests the transition from inside to outside is a problem.
Quote:
Or do you get out of the plane cleanly but then are not belly to wind and thus end up rolling or flipping?
It seems easier to get stable from floating exits. It's the dive that sends me flopping. Often I'm okay for a second or two, but then I'm on my back. D'oh!

Quote:
Or do you present to the wind OK but your body starts a little kicking or flailing for a couple seconds as it isn't yet used to the soft sub-terminal air with "nothing to grab"?
This is very possible.

Quote:
Are you "trying too hard" to get stable and moving arms & legs too much when it would be better to stay a little more still and trust the arch?
This is quite possible too.

I'm surprised by how many replies I got. Thanks everyone!


theonlyski  (D License)

Jun 3, 2012, 6:46 PM
Post #12 of 56 (3606 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'll try that, if the instructors/coaches are cool with it. I don't remember looking up at the plane, so maybe that's part of the problem.

Many experienced jumpers with ~100 still blank on what happened on exit, and don't remember seeing the plane, even if they were looking right at it!

My first stable solo exit was my first '5.5' hop and pop, reason it was so stable? Cause according to my altimeter, the base of those clouds was at 3k and we were under 'em. I was too scared shitless to fuck it up. Crazy


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 3, 2012, 7:35 PM
Post #13 of 56 (3583 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Not an instructor so I may have this wrong, but being dz.com at least we know that half a dozen people will jump in and correct meTongue

On a diving exit you need to keep your feet right on your bum, while maintaining a hard arch - that stops you flipping over. That works for me anyway and pretty sure it is what I was taught. If you straighten your legs to soon over you go.


sundevil777  (D License)

Jun 3, 2012, 8:49 PM
Post #14 of 56 (3557 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm flopping all over the place

I think the answer is more simple than some.

Stop flopping. That is what an experienced jumper does, they trust the right body position to work, and it does.

You are the one in control of whether you flop or not. The reason you flop is likely because you perceive not being stable and trying to correct. Just stop trying to correct and ride it out for a while. It is fun. You've already probably heard how to exit, just do it and ride it out, without letting yourself flop. If you do actually go on your back/unstable/whatever, there will be plenty of time to fix it later, just don't flop for several seconds. Ride the hill, it is fun. Have more confidence than is justified, that also helps.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Jun 3, 2012, 8:50 PM)


jinlee  (D License)

Jun 3, 2012, 10:10 PM
Post #15 of 56 (3533 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm flopping all over the place

I think the answer is more simple than some.

Stop flopping. That is what an experienced jumper does, they trust the right body position to work, and it does.

You are the one in control of whether you flop or not. The reason you flop is likely because you perceive not being stable and trying to correct. Just stop trying to correct and ride it out for a while. It is fun. You've already probably heard how to exit, just do it and ride it out, without letting yourself flop. If you do actually go on your back/unstable/whatever, there will be plenty of time to fix it later, just don't flop for several seconds. Ride the hill, it is fun. Have more confidence than is justified, that also helps.

Best advice I've seen.

Exit and do *nothing*

Don't flail, flop or try to correct your exit, simply exit, RELAX, and maintain your relaxed exit.

The only part of your body that should be moving is your eyes. The plane can be a reference if you want to look up at that. I like to see the spot and the line of flight, and those I've exited with so my eyes will see more than you are seeing but relax. Your only jumping out of a moving airplane in flight at 14,000 feet. No big deal Tongue


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 4, 2012, 5:12 AM
Post #16 of 56 (3478 views)
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Re: [Tuukka] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Have your tried jumping into sitflying position with your back against the wind?

She is talking about dive exits. Thanks anyway.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 4, 2012, 5:14 AM
Post #17 of 56 (3477 views)
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Re: [rwieder] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It doesn't matter how unstable you are when you exit, or your in free fall etc...ARCH fixes EVERYTHING.

Ummmm...it DOES matter. Very much so.
Think emergency bailout at low altitude.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 4, 2012, 5:16 AM
Post #18 of 56 (3476 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was not a natural at exits. Sometime around 60 jumps I did 5-7 hop and pops in a row just to work on exits and canopy control. That helped a lot.
Excellent, excellent, excellent!
I wish all students would do just that.
It something I push quite heavily....stable exits and canopy work.

ALL STUDENTS:
Learn to exit stable. It can be a life-saver.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 4, 2012, 5:27 AM
Post #19 of 56 (3475 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm flopping all over the place

I think the answer is more simple than some.

Stop flopping. That is what an experienced jumper does, they trust the right body position to work, and it does.

You are the one in control of whether you flop or not. The reason you flop is likely because you perceive not being stable and trying to correct. Just stop trying to correct and ride it out for a while. It is fun. You've already probably heard how to exit, just do it and ride it out, without letting yourself flop. If you do actually go on your back/unstable/whatever, there will be plenty of time to fix it later, just don't flop for several seconds. Ride the hill, it is fun. Have more confidence than is justified, that also helps.

Good stuff here. It reflects my own personal problem with dive exits.

After diving, I would feel like I was about to flip heels over head and would give up on it and go ahead and pitch forward intentionally.

Somebody told me the above advice...just hold it no matter what.

Dive out with 45 degree tilt, right arm up with hips to the wind, feet on the butt, arms slightly out and HOLD IT!

First try....it worked.

One tip I got on the 45 degree bit that worked for me was:

On exit, look under your right elbow. If you can see the prop just under your elbow, you have the right angle then turn your head to the left to see where you are going.
(left side door exits)


JackC1

Jun 4, 2012, 7:23 AM
Post #20 of 56 (3425 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

With dive exits, I tend to try and curl my legs up over my back and extend my arms over my head. That tends to stop the front loop that sometimes happens. They do take a little practice though as you tend to go very head low, especially out of tailgate aircraft.

A fun thing to try is to intentionally do a loop on exit and arch out when the planet comes around again. It works with a front loop exit diving out and a back loop exit where you hop out head up facing the tail of the plane and just tuck your knees up and look up. You'd be surprised how quickly you can get stable after an intentional loop. You can do it to get stable in any orientation you want, belly flying, sit, head down. I love em.

For a head up facing the front type exit (poised ish), think of it like getting off a bus while it's still moving. You need to slide out facing the direction of flight and place yourself gently on the wind, don't throw yourself out like a lunatic of the momentum will flip you around.

Well, that's how I do it anyway.


dthames  (B 37674)

Jun 4, 2012, 7:42 AM
Post #21 of 56 (3411 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

I am still a student, not a teacher, but I did my first diving exit yesterday. I have been jumping at a C-182 DZ but I am on a family trip and near a turbo DZ. I went yesterday for a coached up and then a fun jump. I had not done a diving exit and I thought, why not (fun jump). I just pretended the direction of the aircraft flight was where the "earth" was. I launched myself out the Otter door, head slightly down, left shoulder toward the real earth, belly toward the direction of flight, and arched real good like I was falling in that direction. It went smooth as silk.


Namowal  (A 63059)

Jun 4, 2012, 8:54 AM
Post #22 of 56 (3368 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I was not a natural at exits. Sometime around 60 jumps I did 5-7 hop and pops in a row just to work on exits and canopy control. That helped a lot.
Excellent, excellent, excellent!
I wish all students would do just that.
It something I push quite heavily....stable exits and canopy work.

Well, I am signed up for a canopy course that will involve a bunch of hop and pops, so I'll have some opportunities to practice the exit. I'm still a bit spooked doing hop and pops- afraid I'll still be unstable at pull time. (I found myself flipped over on my student H&P but was able to get stable and pull. )


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 4, 2012, 9:09 AM
Post #23 of 56 (3353 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm still a bit spooked doing hop and pops- afraid I'll still be unstable at pull time

First off, remember that it takes 10 seconds to drop through the first 1000ft, so there's no rush. If you leave at 5k, you have 10 seconds to get stable and pull by 4k. Also, remember that the longer you fall, the easier it will be to get stable. You'll be building airspeed the whole time, and your arch will be more effective the closer you get to terminal velocity.

With the above in mind, start doing some hop n pops this weekend, and arrange for one of the jumpers on the load to film your exit. They can film it from the door and still continue on to do their own jump, so that's free video. Once on the ground, get a copy of the video and pin down one of the staff members to review it with you. It won't take more than 2 min or so, and that's free coaching.

Be sure to look at things like where you're looking, the alaignment of your shoulders and hips with the relative wind, and your overall body position (are you even arching? are you holding the arch, or breaking it when you go a little off kilter?). You should be able to locate the source of your problem, and then have some things to focus on for your next jump.

So free video, free coaching, and nothing to focus on but the exit as there's no freefall to follow. You'll get more jumps in, and be able to work on canopy control with no traffic as well.

You might be intimidated by exits and hop n pops, but this is how you can turn that around and make those your strong point.


Namowal  (A 63059)

Jun 4, 2012, 9:16 AM
Post #24 of 56 (3343 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm flopping all over the place

I think the answer is more simple than some.

Stop flopping. That is what an experienced jumper does, they trust the right body position to work, and it does.

You are the one in control of whether you flop or not. The reason you flop is likely because you perceive not being stable and trying to correct. Just stop trying to correct and ride it out for a while. It is fun. You've already probably heard how to exit, just do it and ride it out, without letting yourself flop. If you do actually go on your back/unstable/whatever, there will be plenty of time to fix it later, just don't flop for several seconds. Ride the hill, it is fun. Have more confidence than is justified, that also helps.

Good stuff here. It reflects my own personal problem with dive exits.

After diving, I would feel like I was about to flip heels over head and would give up on it and go ahead and pitch forward intentionally.

Somebody told me the above advice...just hold it no matter what.

Dive out with 45 degree tilt, right arm up with hips to the wind, feet on the butt, arms slightly out and HOLD IT!

First try....it worked.

One tip I got on the 45 degree bit that worked for me was:

On exit, look under your right elbow. If you can see the prop just under your elbow, you have the right angle then turn your head to the left to see where you are going.
(left side door exits)
Ah ha! I bet the flopping is from trying to over correct.
While I was (obviously) aware I was being flipped over, it wasn't until I saw videos of my exits that I realized I was doing the Jerry Lewis routine. I didn't remember actually flailing, but I do remember thinking "gosh, I'm not really stable, better fix this..."
Thanks for the suggestions!


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jun 4, 2012, 9:17 AM
Post #25 of 56 (3343 views)
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Re: [dthames] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I just pretended the direction of the aircraft flight was where the "earth" was. I launched myself out the Otter door, head slightly down, left shoulder toward the real earth, belly toward the direction of flight, and arched real good like I was falling in that direction. It went smooth as silk.
Very nice job.Smile

And you're right. So much of having a good exit depends on proper presentation to the relative wind as soon as you leave the plane. For any exit. decide how to present your hips into the relative wind properly, and dive/hop/stroll/tumble out accordingly. Proper presentation to the relative wind on exit gets you off to a smooth start. Then it only takes a little bit of arch to stay there.

Dave was right about emergency exits. I once had to leave at 1200' due to an engine out emergency. I did a diving exit and pulled a second or two later, nice and stable. I was head down compared to the horizon but flat and stable on the relative wind. Cool


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