Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
what type of turn if you are to low to swoop

 

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jtfreefly  (D 29482)

Jun 2, 2012, 9:36 PM
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what type of turn if you are to low to swoop Can't Post

What turn do you do if you realize you screwed up and did not get your pattern right, and need to do a turn that conserves altitude so that you can still get turned around into the wind?


Nukrites  (D 30239)

Jun 2, 2012, 11:11 PM
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

you don`t have to land in to the wind....


freeflyn  (D License)

Jun 2, 2012, 11:37 PM
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

flat turn


DaVinciflies

Jun 3, 2012, 12:53 AM
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What turn do you do if you realize you screwed up and did not get your pattern right, and need to do a turn that conserves altitude so that you can still get turned around into the wind?

I am interested in why you would ask this question. The answer is "it depends".

If I miss my IP at 550' I can still do a 180 to as low as 450' by speeding up the turn (this is not a guess - I know this from performance enveloping up high). Another option is a flat turn 90 and then a front riser 90, or a gentle toggle carve or a flat turn or land down/crosswind.

Which of the above options I choose depends on how low I am, space/outs available, traffic, winds etc etc...

I hope this answer demonstrates that there is no one right answer which is one reason why swooping is so much more than just flying to a point and hauling on a riser.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 3, 2012, 6:03 AM
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

It depends.

If you're in traffic, a flat turn to get with what I like to call "the school of fish" to land. However, a swooper should never be in that situation in the first place. Swooping in traffic is exactly why we are swoopers are the bad guys on the DZ.

If you're not in traffic, just land safely. By the time that someone is making a high performance turn to landing, they should be comfortable with not landing into the wind. If the winds are too high for you to land downwind, then you may want to wait to do a jump until the winds calm down.

Never try to salvage a swoop. Once the approach is blown, go land safely and try again on the next jump.


jtfreefly  (D 29482)

Jun 3, 2012, 6:32 AM
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Re: [AggieDave] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

ok. I am comfortable doing downwinds, yesterday I just found myself feeling that I probably should not complete my 180 where I was. I started my dowinwind part of my approach too late. So I just did a braked turn and then a 90 degree front riser turn. Is that ok? Or is there a better way?


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 3, 2012, 6:43 AM
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
ok. I am comfortable doing downwinds, yesterday I just found myself feeling that I probably should not complete my 180 where I was. I started my dowinwind part of my approach too late. So I just did a braked turn and then a 90 degree front riser turn. Is that ok? Or is there a better way?

Maybe.

It really all depends on what's going on.

Personally outside of a major competition, I'm more inclined to simply just turn for a standard landing in and laugh about my piss-poor approach, than try tossing some other front riser turn.

My next question is are you flying a downwind to turn or are you flying downwind to a base leg before turning out for your 180 approach?


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Jun 3, 2012, 1:18 PM
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What turn do you do if you realize you screwed up and did not get your pattern right, and need to do a turn that conserves altitude so that you can still get turned around into the wind?

It depends.

Somewhat low you have a lot of latitude to adjust turn rate and space used.

With less altitude fly a normal non-swooping pattern and land normally.

Very low it means flat and perhaps flaring.

The simplest and using the least altitude + distance is pulling both toggles down to 3/4 brakes to kill your descent rate + forward drive; lifting the outside one part way to get a nice balance between flat and a quick pivot; and being prepared to PLF if you're not proficient at flaring from braked approaches and don't have enough altitude left to get back to full flight for a regular flare.

This works on every canopy I own - Samurai 105 elliptical, Stiletto 120 elliptical, Monarch 135 square, 244 Dagger F111 seven cell, 245 Fox F111 seven cell.

With more skill and altitude you can turn with a toggle adding opposite toggle to keep the canopy at trim speed as you turn (add some harness to get a higher turn rate). When you run out of altitude you can flare harder and faster than you normally would in the turn and maintain it until you get to your desired heading or are getting short of lift at which point you get the canopy back over your head and finish flaring + landing in whatever cross-wind direction you were headed.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Jun 3, 2012, 1:34 PM)


RichLees

Jun 4, 2012, 2:26 AM
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The simplest and using the least altitude + distance is pulling both toggles down to 3/4 brakes to kill your descent rate + forward drive; lifting the outside one part way to get a nice balance between flat and a quick pivot; and being prepared to PLF if you're not proficient at flaring from braked approaches and don't have enough altitude left to get back to full flight for a regular flare.

Depending on amount of roll, rate of toggle depression, WL etc, this can get you surprisingly close to stalling the inside end of a Velo which will spin up real quick.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 4, 2012, 4:28 AM
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What turn do you do if you realize you screwed up and did not get your pattern right, and need to do a turn that conserves altitude so that you can still get turned around into the wind?

The simple answer is a flat turn.

The more complex answer is that this shouldn't even be a question for someone who is already swooping. Swooping should be at the end of the progression learning to fly your canopy. The last thing you should be doing is trying to dive your canopy hard close to the ground.

If you really think about it, when you swoop you're looking for the maximum dive (altitude loss) from your turn. With that in mind, you could do any other turn you could think of (up to the same degree of your planned turn) and use up less altitude than you originally planned.

While looking at the 'simple answer', the flat turn, keep in mind that if your plan goes from a long, diving, turn for a swoop to a flat turn, you have made a HUGE error in your set up.


jtfreefly  (D 29482)

Jun 4, 2012, 5:35 PM
Post #11 of 45 (5427 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks to all. I appreciate it.


morris

Jun 13, 2012, 3:52 AM
Post #12 of 45 (5139 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
With more skill and altitude you can turn with a toggle adding opposite toggle to keep the canopy at trim speed as you turn (add some harness to get a higher turn rate). When you run out of altitude you can flare harder and faster than you normally would in the turn and maintain it until you get to your desired heading or are getting short of lift at which point you get the canopy back over your head and finish flaring + landing in whatever cross-wind direction you were headed.
Nice one! But: Adding OPPOSITE harness input will allow you to apply more toggleinput, resulting in a faster turnrate - but without creating too much bankangle and without resulting in a too steep pitch...


swoopgaz  (E 1964)

Jun 13, 2012, 4:57 AM
Post #13 of 45 (5127 views)
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

You DO NOT have to do a turn to land. If you are too low you can just land straight in. People have died from still trying to get a turn in.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jun 13, 2012, 7:15 AM
Post #14 of 45 (5106 views)
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't get scared and grab that front and snap it, since you are out of altitude to make a long smooth dive, and ofcourse you are going to have to trust those rears to pull you out of the dive.

Just don't miss the gate. Toggle recovery is for pussys.


krisco  (C 3244)

Jul 19, 2012, 8:53 PM
Post #15 of 45 (4852 views)
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

NEVER TOO LOW TO SWOOP!


cocheese  (D 24000)

Aug 1, 2012, 4:48 AM
Post #16 of 45 (4638 views)
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

Turn in your gear. Your questions scare me. You are not ready for your next jump.






vortexr1  (D License)

Oct 8, 2012, 6:13 PM
Post #19 of 45 (3974 views)
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

STOP THE DAMN 180'S....Dangerous


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Oct 8, 2012, 8:55 PM
Post #20 of 45 (3954 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

Nonsense. 180's are a perfectly acceptable turn, and part of the progression towards bigger turns.


vortexr1  (D License)

Oct 8, 2012, 10:16 PM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

The HELL they are!!!! Go from 90's right too 270's.... You come to lodi, mile high, z hills,deland,eloy Ill slap the shit out of you for doin that here:(... You have a blind spot... Dangerous turns... IN NOOOOOO WAY IS THAT THE PROPER PROGRESDION IN SWOOPING. Its for guys who are tea hing themselves and are hoseing themselves. Being a mod here you might NOT want to give advice on things you dont know. Ive seen you swoop and I would NOT give out advice my friend. We need to teach safe and responsible swooping techniques. Not give wrong info to newbies... Cheesedick out.


AggieDave  (D License)

Oct 9, 2012, 3:35 AM
Post #22 of 45 (3915 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The HELL they are!!!! Go from 90's right too 270's.... You come to lodi, mile high, z hills,deland,eloy Ill slap the shit out of you for doin that here:(... You have a blind spot... Dangerous turns... IN NOOOOOO WAY IS THAT THE PROPER PROGRESDION IN SWOOPING. Its for guys who are tea hing themselves and are hoseing themselves. Being a mod here you might NOT want to give advice on things you dont know. Ive seen you swoop and I would NOT give out advice my friend. We need to teach safe and responsible swooping techniques. Not give wrong info to newbies... Cheesedick out.

Strange, 180s can be done safely, it is just that in the past they weren't taught correctly, so they weren't executed correctly. Ian might talk funny, but he happens to be an accomplished swooper who travels the country competing and teaching.

Maybe you should ask how they are being taught in the modern swooping era in response to the problems that were valid points in the past before going ballistic?


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Oct 9, 2012, 5:02 AM
Post #23 of 45 (3894 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting response. Incorrect (and largely incoherrant) however on many accounts.

180's may not be one of my favorite parts of a swooping progression but it is absolutely necessary. As with all things, it's a series of steps working towards an end goal.

Quote:
We need to teach safe and responsible swooping techniques. Not give wrong info to newbies

Which is exactly why I'm correcting you, and will continue to do so.

Quote:
You come to lodi, mile high, z hills,deland,eloy Ill slap the shit out of you for doin that here

You're welcome to come over and chat (since apparently you know me) and be happy to explain in more detail why you're wrong.

Ian


linebckr83  (D 30571)

Oct 9, 2012, 12:12 PM
Post #24 of 45 (3828 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The HELL they are!!!! Go from 90's right too 270's.... You come to lodi, mile high, z hills,deland,eloy Ill slap the shit out of you for doin that here:(... You have a blind spot... Dangerous turns... IN NOOOOOO WAY IS THAT THE PROPER PROGRESDION IN SWOOPING. Its for guys who are tea hing themselves and are hoseing themselves. Being a mod here you might NOT want to give advice on things you dont know. Ive seen you swoop and I would NOT give out advice my friend. We need to teach safe and responsible swooping techniques. Not give wrong info to newbies... Cheesedick out.

You really didn't think about that before you posted it. I doubt any joe blow skydiver can walk on to the factory team, so maybe he knows a little about what hes talking about.

Hmm I do 180's all the time. Mostly because I dont feel current enough to keep doing 270s. And I usually have my own airspace. If its crowded, it becomes a 90 or nothing. I sure haven't hurt or cut anyone off before. It can be done safely.


DocPop  (C License)

Oct 9, 2012, 12:54 PM
Post #25 of 45 (3818 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The HELL they are!!!! Go from 90's right too 270's.... You come to lodi, mile high, z hills,deland,eloy Ill slap the shit out of you for doin that here:(... You have a blind spot... Dangerous turns... IN NOOOOOO WAY IS THAT THE PROPER PROGRESDION IN SWOOPING. Its for guys who are tea hing themselves and are hoseing themselves. Being a mod here you might NOT want to give advice on things you dont know. Ive seen you swoop and I would NOT give out advice my friend. We need to teach safe and responsible swooping techniques. Not give wrong info to newbies... Cheesedick out.

I am absolutely incredulous at this post for a number of reasons:

1. You are threatening, immature and totally undermining your credibility before you start.
2. You offer no evidence, or even explanation, for your assertion that 180s are dangerous (other than the mistaken "blind spot" line that people trot out - see #3)
3. 180s do not have to be a blind whip into unknown airspace (indeed they should not be). The modern technique is a diving carve and anyone who can turn their head can see where they are going before they start the turn.
4. Finally, you do all the above while disagreeing with a pro-swooper and professional canopy coach in a public forum.

Bad manners, bad skills and bad attitude. It is a sign of Ian's calmness and professionalism that he has allowed your post to stand and be discussed instead of deleting it for the PA it quite clearly was.

*I suppose that I should add that #3 above does not mean I agree that it's OK to do 180s or any HP turn in traffic.


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