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Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition

 

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lurch  (D 27583)

Jun 2, 2012, 2:10 PM
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Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition Can't Post

So.
I put two more flights on the thing.
I added a 10 foot bridle with a 28 inch PC and the deployments were both perfect.

Retraction from previous review: It is not that the suit cannot be shut down, its that it requires a very specific technique, and the same lazy "just squeeze it" that worked on an S-Bird doesn't cut it with this suit. I found that bringing my knees up like I'm sitting down in a chair breaks the wing pressurization and allows the suit to be fairly easily shut down, after all. The armwings still present what feels like an alarmingly animated bulge behind the arms when I go for the pull, but a careful, measured movement does overcome the air pressure enough to deflate the thing allowing access to the handle. The grippers just get out of the way on their own. Once I got it tuned up and got used to it the deployment felt about the same as my S-bird, maybe a little steadier actually, except for the whole "squeeze the wings down" part. The suit still can't be entirely turned off, but it can be tamed and scrunched enough that its sheer scale and bulk no longer feel threatening.

The 10-foot bridle seems to have totally eliminated the vicious off-heading problem, as expected. Glad I kept one handy in my "just in case" gear file. Consider such a bridle mandatory with this suit.

Both flights were test solos specifically intended to demonstrate the suit's climbing ability and the envelope in which it will do so.

I did 4 planeouts in 2 jumps, with slightly different approaches to each, and managed to get what looks like a fairly good representative curve of the suit's capability.

The first planeout I did from essentially a standing start, just barely above a normal cruise, fallrate of 45 mph, typical while flocking with medium large suits. The result was a not-quite-zero planeout to 5mph. So now I know whats "not-quite-enough" to either zero it or climb. With this maneuver as an outlier I've planted a stake just outside of true-zero territory as a marker.

The next punchout I allowed the suit to build up a little speed to a fallrate typical of a mixed-skills mixed-suit flock flying dirty. Initiating a deliberate climb from 78 mph translated to what appears to be about a 6mph climbrate.

A curve drawn between those two initiation speeds would show a minimum speed for levelling off at around 50 to 55 mph and a minimum speed for climbing of what looks like 55 to 65 mph. Sooner or later I'll hit it at exactly the right speed in between, and after collecting a few samples of those, I'll be able to neatly fill in the holes with actual speeds for the whole range map, but for now I'm content with having bracketed it. I'd guess that by 70 mph the climb is miniscule...3-5 mph and by 60 its very hit or miss, but we know that 78 was definitely more than enough, and so the actual flatline is a roughly predictable distance below that speed.

After seeing the results from the first test flight showing that I had succeeded in hitting and deliberately not-hitting the desired results from roughly the speeds I expected, I went up again with the specific intention of showing at least two climbs in one skydive just to beat the point in with a lead pipe that not only are climbs doable in this suit, but they are repeatably doable, at will, under precisely documentable conditions.

What I got was a GPS track showing exactly the two climbs I wanted, when I wanted them.

The first maneuver showed a 5mph climb from 95 MPH, the second showed a 10MPH climb from 85 MPH. I'm not sure if this just means my technique is still a little rough or that it was more efficient at 85 than at 95, or simply that I just did it better the second time, but both attempted climbs did in fact show as clear climbs on the GPS.

Observation: Jarno had pointed out that the altimeter could have been fooled with my initial result showing a 21mph climb by air pressure. Since I had no decent track for that one I couldn't argue with it or prove it wrong, and it seemed likely enough. But now that I get a chance to play back Altitrack recordings while comparing them to Flysight readings, it appears that far from being fooled, assuming the GPS -is- in fact fairly accurate, the Altitrack consistently either ignores or UNDER reads climbs. A climb of 10mph by GPS shows as 2 to 6 MPH when played back on the altimeter itself, and one of the two aggressive climbs barely showed on the altimeter at all. In retrospect it seems quite likely that the rise in air pressure pushed in front of the suit during such maneuvers would effectively camoflage the climb from the altimeter, and the alti will only show a climb when it is so overwhelming that the resultant drop in air pressure overcomes the artificially exaggerated rise in air pressure the altimeter is exposed to in the displacement wave produced ahead of the suit itself.

So not only would I lay a bet that my first recorded 21 mph climb was "accurate", but I'd bet that if I do it again with the GPS on, the GPS will reveal that a 21mph climb indicated by the altimeter is in fact more like a 25-30+ mph climb.

On closer review it also appears the Altitrack consistently reports higher fallrates than the GPS indicates at the same moment. They agree with each other about the moves, the scale of them, and when, but both dives in the doubleclimb track showed as slightly over 100mph by altimeter, and well under 100mph by GPS.

Nuff said. Let the feeding frenzy begin. Anybody wants to challenge this or thinks its fake, ask and I'll send you the original GPS tracks by email. I can do these all day long and prove it again and again till the cows come home.

As I build further experience with this suit I'll fill in the rest of the gaps and get a feel for exactly how much climb or flatline I can get from exactly what speeds, but suffice to say that, it would appear the suit can climb, beyond a shadow of a doubt, verifiable by multiple instruments at once, at-will and on command, so long as I have sufficient fallrate available from which to harvest the necessary energy.

The Game Has Changed.
-B


(This post was edited by lurch on Jun 2, 2012, 2:11 PM)
Attachments: Singleclimb1.jpg (255 KB)
  Twoclimbs1.jpg (271 KB)


granpasc

Jun 2, 2012, 3:10 PM
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Re: [lurch] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok i see
Thank you for datas
Peaks are non sense
90mph to -10 in 1/4 sec = 5g Crazy


What's the unit below graph ? 0:00:00/0:44:95....11:59:15 ?

What is the first part of flight? Plane climb? 25mph up 10 down 15 up....Sly

I'm always thinking any ufo with 30 mph average fall rate (not so bad Cool) can't climb without engine with flexible wings loaded at +++pouds/inch2 Frown


imsparticus  (D License)

Jun 2, 2012, 3:21 PM
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imsparticus  (D License)

Jun 2, 2012, 3:46 PM
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Re: [imsparticus] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

Lurch: the data on the apache is inaccurate.

Granpasc: How's that lurch?

lurch: Well, I just happened to see a apache do a 5G climb.


Skwrl: We!...We.

lurch: Sorry, Skwrl. WE happened to see a apache do a 5G climb.

Granpasc: Where did you see this?

Lurch: That's classified.

Granpasc: It's what?

Lurch: It's classified. I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you.

Granpasc: Lurch, I have top secret clearance. Tonysuit sees to it that I know more than you.

lurch: it doesn't seem so in this case now does it.

Granpasc: So, Lurch, where exactly were you?

Lurch: Well, WE --

Skwrl: Thank you.

Lurch: -- started up on his six, when he pulled through the clouds, and then I moved in below him.

Granpasc: Well, if you were directly below him, how did you get above him?

Lurch: Because I was climbing.

Jarno: (cough) B------t.

Skwrl: No, he was, man. It was a really great move. He was climbing.

Granpasc: You were in a 5g climb with a apache?

Lurch: Yes, ma'am.

Granpasc: At what range?

Lurch: About two meters.

skwrl: Well, it's actually about one and a half, I think. It was one and a half. I've got great video of it, and he's, he's right there. Must be one and a half.

lurch: It was nice video....

Skwrl: Thanks, man. I like my videos....

Granpasc: What were you doing there?

Skwrl: Communicating.

Lurch: Communicating. Keeping up foreign relations. I was, uh, you know, giving him "the bird."

Skwrl: You know -- "the finger."

Granpasc: Yes, I know the finger, Skwrl.

Skwrl: I'm, I'm sorry. I hate it when it does that. I'm sorry. Excuse me.

Granpasc: [to Lurch] So you're the one.



Lurch: Yes, ma'am.


(This post was edited by imsparticus on Jun 2, 2012, 4:16 PM)


granpasc

Jun 2, 2012, 4:39 PM
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Re: [imsparticus] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

i'm still in love kelly mcgillis since bathroom scene of "witness"Blush


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Jun 2, 2012, 4:44 PM
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Re: [imsparticus] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

Wait, I know you're trying to be funny, but I'm kind of confused by that. Are you bitching I didn't post the video? Cause if that's the case, I'll do that when I get back to the US in a little over a week. If not, then I don't get it.

And, for the record, my video is from last week. I haven't jumped since then, so whatever data he's posting - his most recent ones - wasn't with me.

[Edited to add...] Ah, I get it now. Top Gun. Never actually saw the film; didn't get the reference. Apologies about my initial over-reaction (since edited away). Wil post the video if anyone wants to see it, but all it would prove is that he flew scrunched up next to me on a few jumps last weekend, it wouldn't show my flight position, so no doubt somebody would question that. Maybe we'll have to both simultaneously film a jump and side-by-side the video.


(This post was edited by Skwrl on Jun 2, 2012, 4:56 PM)


urowolf  (D 32182)

Jun 2, 2012, 4:51 PM
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Re: [lurch] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

Lurch, when trying to figure out your chart, you have to take into account your forward speed as well as your vertical (fall rate) speed. You are dealing with a vector (magnitude and direction). Your results can not be consistent if you only pay attention to fall rate (unless you always fly with the same forward speed).


lurch  (D 27583)

Jun 2, 2012, 5:05 PM
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lurch  (D 27583)

Jun 2, 2012, 5:28 PM
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Re: [urowolf] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed. I spent half the time before posting the starter to this thread studying the forward speeds involved.
I can put em up as screengrabs here too, but the free software is rather...simple and does not allow for any overlays or manipulation/zooming/closer examination of the plots relative to each other. No offense to Tom who wrote it but it is so very elementary of a piece of software as to be nearly useless. Most of the basic functions I'd expect out of such a viewer simply do not exist. Zoom-in, finer time divisions, display of the actual values at any point in the graph... much of it, all I can do is eyeball the graph and take a guess as to what value a given spot represents.

One of the more interesting bits visible in one of the graphs is the plot of forward speed after exit. Shows I used the throw of the plane to stay at about a 10mph fallrate or less (I was hanging out well above the plane watching it go) until I finally stalled out entirely at about 40mph forward. Flipping back and forth in the program between the various displays it DOES have show, for example, that a 5mph climb took 122mph forward, and left me with 65mph forward remaining when there was no longer any useful energy left to be extracted and the suit returned to neutral freefall.
I can put up even more screengrabs of horizontal speed as well as the altitude graphs that show clear climbs as well, but somebody else would have to overlay them somehow to be able to really make much sense of them in relation to their vertical speed values cause I ain't got photoshop and I don't know how to use it even if I did. I'm doing this on a budget and I can't splash on Paralog right now.
-B


ifell  (C 3591)

Jun 2, 2012, 5:57 PM
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Re: [lurch] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

Well Lurch, Paralog is free you know... It's a pretty small download too! Granted you will not be able to save a log of all your jumps but for now all you need is the free version to analyse your jumps one by one. You will have that pretty graph that shows the red altitude line (which Flysight Viewer has as well) to show everyone the climb. After all this is what all this is about isn't it? Showing everyone that wants to see


::Oh and by the way you can zoom in and out in the flysight viewer with the mouse buttons and you can select which portion of the graph you want to zoom in on by highlighting that portion


(This post was edited by ifell on Jun 2, 2012, 6:00 PM)


lurch  (D 27583)

Jun 2, 2012, 6:14 PM
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Re: [ifell] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok I got it to zoom IN, but now it doesn't zoom OUT.
Anyway the thing I want it to do is display altitude/vert/horizontal speed overlaid on each other. I've been told Paralog is available in a limited free version but I've developed a strong aversion to "free version" software mostly because only AFTER you download, install and configure it do you discover that the one function you actually wanted it to do is locked off or disabled and that of course is the part they want you to pay for.

So I just expect the free version to jerk me around and constantly demand that I upgrade to the full version. I suppose I might as well just deal with it give it a try and see...
-B


granpasc

Jun 2, 2012, 6:14 PM
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Re: [lurch] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry but it was no agressivity. Only your graph is bullshit on the form.

Is it really seconds below? division sometimes24s folows 19s follows 24 and after 14s ...Mad


I suggest also to send this type of data if you want i learn to read it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cfZZX_dqbk
http://www.paralog.net/...p;filename=Chart.png

ok now you'r the boss and the best of us. Sorry for the inconvenience.


(This post was edited by cpoxon on Jun 3, 2012, 12:46 AM)


lurch  (D 27583)

Jun 2, 2012, 6:29 PM
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Re: [granpasc] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

I never claimed to be either the boss of anything or the best. Far from it. I compete so I can test my skills against pilots better than I am, so that I may improve and get better myself.

I -may- be the first to attempt to actually document and perform repeatable climbs, I only think that because nobody else seems to have tried to do so yet to my knowledge, but that has nothing to do with me, just means maybe nobody else has got around to it yet.

What exactly is your problem with that? State your objection clearly please, your attempts at mocking or sarcasm only confuse the issue.
-B


lurch  (D 27583)

Jun 2, 2012, 6:42 PM
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Re: [ifell] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

Check it out
Thanks to Drunk for rendering these from .CSV.
Any questions?
-B
Attachments: first run.jpg (145 KB)
  second run twoclimbs.jpg (152 KB)


ifell  (C 3591)

Jun 2, 2012, 7:03 PM
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Re: [lurch] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok I won't beat you over the head with it or anything but the free version does everything YOU need it to do, you won't be able to save all your jumps to it but you can load and analyse them one by one with that very graph drunk sent you of your .csv

To bad you are so quick to dismiss the free version without even trying it, sounds like it would have saved YOU the frustration of dealing with single info tracks instead of overlays...

Byh the way FUCK YEAH on those flights man!!! Hey you can actually call those flights now lol


michalm21  (Student)

Jun 2, 2012, 11:18 PM
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Re: [lurch] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

Congratulations Lurch! Keep them coming!


Shredex

Jun 3, 2012, 12:11 AM
Post #17 of 55 (3513 views)
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Re: [granpasc] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ok i see
Thank you for datas
Peaks are non sense
90mph to -10 in 1/4 sec = 5g Crazy


What's the unit below graph ? 0:00:00/0:44:95....11:59:15 ?

What is the first part of flight? Plane climb? 25mph up 10 down 15 up....Sly

I'm always thinking any ufo with 30 mph average fall rate (not so bad Cool) can't climb without engine with flexible wings loaded at +++pouds/inch2 Frown

It actually shows 90 to -10 in about 4.4 seconds.


granpasc

Jun 3, 2012, 1:13 AM
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Re: [lurch] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for new graph. I really understandBlushBlush

Slow 3D speed, average glide (2.5?) usual but huge vertical speed variation...
Something like dead leaf gliding and not ballistic scud like V4 and others...

I'd only reason on that point: You're the boss !Cool


LukeH  (D License)

Jun 3, 2012, 4:28 AM
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Re: [lurch] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

As this is the "reality check" thread, I hope you won't take exception to some fact based observations.

The plane outs are proceeded by sharp increases in free-fall speed of about 40-50mph in a few seconds, resulting in an almost doubling of the forward speed.

How does this happen without a dive?
Can you do the same thing from a steady fall rate not proceeded by a dive?

While you are busy congratulating yourself on proving your first post correct, don't forget the key points of
-an actual dive is not even necessary.
-21MPH climb
-The suit can plane out to zero mph from almost any available fall rate and forward speed
-smooth slow ramp down to and below 0 fall rate
-usable flight range has so far gone from 90 to -21mph
Your graphs so far have proved all of these claims incorrect.

"Normal flocking speed" is pretty subjective but even if you are now trying to say that 78MPH is normal flocking speed for you and Skwrl, it still doesn't result in anything near a 21MPH climb.

The fact that we've come this far and you are now saying that you were climbing at 25-30mph without diving says a lot for your credibility.


verticalflyer  (D 11313)

Jun 3, 2012, 4:34 AM
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Re: [lurch] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I -may- be the first to attempt to actually document and perform repeatable climbs, I only think that because nobody else seems to have tried to do so yet to my knowledge, but that has nothing to do with me, just means maybe nobody else has got around to it yet.
-B

Lurch many pilots have done planeouts relative to canopies and other flyers at low speeds so we know we can transfer forward speed and descent into a decelleration of that energy and defelection from one vector to another. However personally unless i could achieve a climb from a very low initial descent speed already the debate is pointless.

The I can climb from an 80mph dive is a waste of time, altitude and energy. Just my personal view but there is no point in acheiving climbs when you just burned so much initial altitude to generate the energy to be able to achieve a small climb that you would be several thousand feet higher if you had not even dived in the first place.

Yay i can climb, yes you can but your 3000ft below me on the same time track but well done. Wink

Until you start strapping mini jets on you cannot achieve decent climbs period. Basic physics and aerodynamics are unlikely to change anytime soon.


(This post was edited by verticalflyer on Jun 3, 2012, 4:36 AM)


lurch  (D 27583)

Jun 3, 2012, 5:13 AM
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Re: [LukeH] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

Luke I am amazed at your persistence. I really am. What satisfaction exactly you get out of repeatedly picking at what I say looking for things to jump up and down crowing "liar, liar!" about, I dunno, but that speaks a lot more about your qualities as a person than any first-impression blown-mind enthusiastic exaggeration produced by an elated emotional state I have spoken speaks about -my- credibility.

My credibility is fairly well established in this community and a little dramatic license taken while trying to describe a mindblowing, singular flight experience will not change that one bit. Hows yours?

I created this thread specifically FOR the reasons you're now having to resort to copy and pasting stuff from my LAST thread to attack: So I can put some real repeatable numbers to the euphoria that produced that thread. Thats why this is the reality check edition. The first was about impressions and emotion, this ones about facts. I couldn't give a damn if you don't -like- what I had to SAY, I put my FACTS up, right here. So STFU.

If you acquired the ability to climb at will you'd be a bit euphoric yourself, and I doubt you'd care much what some nitpicking keyboard pilot with an allergic reaction to enthusiasm on the internet thinks.

I'd have thought after putting my facts up here that you'd be satisfied, STFU and go find somebody else to harass for speaking inaccurately on the internet. There are so MANY others, what are you waiting for, go get em, Tigger!

I just demonstrated the ability to repeatedly climb, at will, and put up the exact conditions I did it with for all the world to see. If I am dumb enough to try to fly in a flock with this suit, I can and will be able to climb, literally climb, away from that flock. If necessary, I will produce even more graphs specifically demonstrating exactly that move if thats what it takes to beat you into silence on this one. The graphs I just put up, conservatively, show that with 78 getting me +6, I should still get usable climb down to 70 or a little below. In other words, normal flocking speeds. Just to really beat it into your head with a lead pipe I might have half the flock video it while I'm at it plus a camera on a nearby canopy and you can spend the next week going over the video and GPS track looking for illusions inaccuracies and trickery bitterly muttering to yourself all about how this is all bullshit and you'll get me in the end if its the last thing you do.

What exactly is your problem buddy? You can go right ahead keep jumping up and down throwing peanuts and shouting Liar Liar from the stands all you like...

I'm in the ring. You're in the stands taking shots from the cheap seats and throwing things. If you think I'm that full of shit, then lets see you do better. The pedantic Professor Heckler act buys you no friends in here.
Hows that for a reality check for ya?
Now, are you done yet?
-B


LukeH  (D License)

Jun 3, 2012, 5:38 AM
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Re: [lurch] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So not only would I lay a bet that my first recorded 21 mph climb was "accurate", but I'd bet that if I do it again with the GPS on, the GPS will reveal that a 21mph climb indicated by the altimeter is in fact more like a 25-30+ mph climb.

You were the one that started this thread by refering to the clams in the previous one and going even further.

Thanks for the attack, real class.


lurch  (D 27583)

Jun 3, 2012, 5:44 AM
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Re: [verticalflyer] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

Vert, I know planeouts have been going on for years, I can do a pretty decent one in an S-Bird, too.

I didn't say I may be the first to do it. I said I may be the first to document and perform it repeatably.

And, look again at the graphs, man. I got well over 3 minutes on both of em, nearly 4 minutes on one. Why would I care about burning a little altitude when the suit lets me get almost 4 minutes of flight time even in a skydive where part of the jump was spent deliberately diving? If you can call it that?

And, as I said before, it does not require an actual "dive" dive to do this. Just let the nose drop a little and pile on some speed. A dive makes it better, yes, and will allow me to accelerate quicker if I want, but how much of a "dive" could I have been doing to produce only 78 mph? Some people are doing 78 mph with their wings wide open flying flat. The graphs show exactly how much, or rather how little, altitude I had to burn to get a climb.

If you think its "pointless", well, thats your call, but to me its like my very own personal rollercoaster and having a suit that can level off or climb that easily for that much of its range is pure sex airtime. But thats just me. Regardless of how insistent Luke is that punching a climb from a typical flock is not and can not be happening, I'm sort of looking forward to seeing if I CAN fly this thing dirty enough to stay with our typical flocks around here because if I can, I will happily punch out to climbs at breakoff from those flocks all day long, and put em up on the internet just to grind its reality relentlessly into Professor Dick's face with a cheese grater.

-B


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Jun 3, 2012, 9:32 AM
Post #24 of 55 (3324 views)
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Re: [verticalflyer] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
unless i could achieve a climb from a very low initial descent speed already the debate is pointless.

Quote:
Basic physics and aerodynamics are unlikely to change anytime soon.


Not taking anyones side here but the above quotes are two very relevant statements to keep in mind in this whole debate. I'll throw something out there for everyone to mull over and decide on. Perhaps it would be better to call/categorize this as a dynamic flare instead of a climb?

I'm fairly sure everyone at one point or another in their skydiving experiences has flown their canopy in on final and flared hard to the point where instead of leveling out and simply landing, their canopy popped back up momentarily and then continued to descend and land. This, in my opinion , is what is happening, a rapid and momentary slowing down and conversion of horizontal and vertical speeds. If that is accomplished by opening all of the suits wing surface and or going from flying "dirty" to flying ones body efficiently there may be a perceived gain in altitude from the current and expected future trajectory, even if for a split second but the descent ultimately continues, which basically makes this a flare. When someone can produce evidence that they went from say an altitude of 10k feet to 11k feet during the course of a wingsuit skydive intentionally and can repeat it, then I would call that a climb.

I was about to address the electronics side of all of this and how/why the negative numbers are seen/obtained but then I looked back at the first quote in this post,specifically the last 4 words and changed my mind as I/we all have better things to do I am sure.Smile


normiss  (D 28356)

Jun 3, 2012, 7:11 PM
Post #25 of 55 (3178 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] Tony Suits Apache Rebel Review, Reality Check Edition [In reply to] Can't Post

To be fair .... VHS won their contest as well.

Marketing sadly and typically wins over quality of product.


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