Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Swooping is fun when done right.

 


Pablo.Moreno  (C 13216)

May 28, 2012, 5:30 PM
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Swooping is fun when done right. Can't Post

First, I want to apologize for my bad grammar and mispelling, please bear with me Smile

I was waiting on finally have some decent swoops on video, before I could post my experience on canopy piloting progression.

I start training for swooping on a Saber2 170 loaded at
1.2-1.3 and I had about 180 jumps total.
By training I mean doing some 5 mph downwind and doing double front approaches. Probably did about 10-20 jumps doing this double front riser approach. Later the winter came and I got some training from the most experience canopy pilot from my DZ, he mention how to dive my canopy to get the best results. Also he mention different skills such as carving, bailing, rear risers stalls, toggles transitions and harness input and how to practice this up high.That same winter we took one of the basic courses of Canopy piloting with Brian Germain, thanks for coming to our dropzone Brian.

Later, I start doing 90 with a 10 second dive time. For this I did about 10 jumps doing drills up high, calculating the time and altitude lost from my initiation point to where I was level off. after doing 100 or so jumps doing 90, I had a close call. I bounce off the ground (people though I broke my legs because it looks to them that my heels were really close to the back of my head after the bounce, thank god I didn't broke anything). I trained for the whole winter before the season started in case something like this would happen. I wanted to have enough muscle to diminish as much damage as I could and also I became really flexible doing stretching exercises.

In the end, I was limping for about 2 days and swooping by the third day. I wasn't standing any of my landings, and sliding on my ass was the way to go ( I didn't want to let time pass and beat myself because of my bad decision, so I tried to get back at it as soon as I could, with a lot of thinking on how I could deal with those kind of situations.

After doing 250 jumps on my saber 2 170 in less than 3 months, I downsized to a crossfire II 139. For some people that might have been a big step down. As soon as I got this canopy, I did about 10 jumps to figured what was the altitude lost on a 10 second dive doing a 90 hook turn. I had 2 close calls on this one as well, but this time I never bounce of the ground. I used my toggles and they save me every time.

After doing about 100 jumps on the crossfire I was cleared to increase my turn, and after talking with my coach we decided that probably doing a 270 was the best way to go instead of a 180. with a 270 it would be an easier way to set myself and correct the turn so I can aimed to the gates and have a higher success rate on making the gates. Guess what, I did drills up high for this as well.

At the beginning of this year I tried to come back to a 270. I realized my sight picture was completely off, Damn you winter months of no jumping. I went back to do an easy 90 until I got my sight picture back and I did, so now I am ready to hit the 270 again.

To bad I am trying to get my Demo rating and I been landing within 10 meters of target on my last 25 jumps, but I need to be at the most 5 meters off the target in 10 consecutive times, as soon as I accomplished that I will go back to swooping.

My best advice to people that want to swoop,
- Learn when it is the right time to bail on a swoop. You can always jump later
- Get as much information as you can.
- Learn from others people mistakes.
- Get the right tools for the right job (altimeters,risers,etc).
- Have someone videoing your landings.
- Do all the drills for everything up high, before you even think applying in them close to the ground.
- Ask for inputs from your fellow experience SWOOPERS.
- Stay current.
- Before making any kind of progression, talk with someone more experience to review all the risks that are going to increase with the change you are going to make.
- As you will see on my video, you don't really need anything more than a 90 to get a nice swoop, unless you are planing on competing.

Swooping has risks, like everything in skydiving, but is up to you to keep that risk to the minimum,

I really hate people that have been trolling the forums trying to ban a discipline without really knowing how the discipline itself works and because of that ignorance they cant really come up with a solutions to the problems on this discipline.

Here is the link to my best landings so far. (by the way, it looks like some of the guys were landing on the wrong direction. We have a split landing area, one for swoopers and one for people landing into the wind and we always review our flight plan with the other jumpers before we even get in the plane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5j8yAO4D5I&feature=youtu.be

And remember, there is nothing wrong with a green or dusty ass.


Decodiver  (D License)

May 29, 2012, 6:01 AM
Post #2 of 16 (1930 views)
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Re: [Pablo.Moreno] Swooping is fun when done right. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm gonna buy me some popcorn....sit back and let the show begin......................


5.samadhi

May 29, 2012, 8:13 AM
Post #3 of 16 (1883 views)
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Re: [Decodiver] Swooping is fun when done right. [In reply to] Can't Post

Deco-diver, do you think there is some inherent flaw in this approach he took? Or are you saying that this forum is hostile to swooping now in general???

Seems like he did everything everyone offers as advice: use an appropriate canopy with a not too radical wingloading, seek experienced canopy coaching, progress slowly, have others evaluate you continually with video/coaching.

Am I missing something???

ps by the way my computer (piece of shit) cannot view the video so if you are referring to that, so be it...it sounds like his text is right on though.


(This post was edited by 5.samadhi on May 29, 2012, 8:15 AM)


Decodiver  (D License)

May 29, 2012, 9:05 AM
Post #4 of 16 (1861 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Swooping is fun when done right. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Deco-diver, do you think there is some inherent flaw in this approach he took?
.

Quote:
I start training for swooping on a Saber2 170 loaded at
1.2-1.3 and I had about 180 jumps total.
By training I mean doing some 5 mph downwind and doing double front approaches.

There's a bit more to training than a down-winder in 5mph but of course everybody has to start somewhere

Quote:
after doing 100 or so jumps doing 90, I had a close call. I bounce off the ground

I guess we've all had close calls though thank god I wouldn't call a close call an impact which is what this is

Quote:
In the end, I was limping for about 2 days and swooping by the third day. I wasn't standing any of my landings, and sliding on my ass was the way to go ( I didn't want to let time pass and beat myself because of my bad decision

In a rush to do something maybe?

Quote:
After doing 250 jumps on my saber 2 170 in less than 3 months, I downsized to a crossfire II 139. For some people that might have been a big step down. As soon as I got this canopy, I did about 10 jumps to figured what was the altitude lost on a 10 second dive doing a 90 hook turn. I had 2 close calls on this one as well, but this time I never bounce of the ground. I used my toggles and they save me every time.

Start to see a trend here? From a Saber 170 to a 139 maybe, 2 close calls (these were close calls)

Quote:
After doing about 100 jumps on the crossfire I was cleared to increase my turn, and after talking with my coach we decided that probably doing a 270 was the best way to go instead of a 180.

90 straight to 270.........

Quote:
At the beginning of this year I tried to come back to a 270. I realized my sight picture was completely off, Damn you winter months of no jumping. I went back to do an easy 90 until I got my sight picture back and I did, so now I am ready to hit the 270 again.

So having had a sight picture for 90s but not 180s after a lay-off the decision was made to go 270s. Not a good idea, see because a sight picture for a 270 is made up of lots of sight pictures of 90s, lots of sight pictures of 180s and lots of sight pictures of 270s......

Now do you see why I'm gonna get some popcorn?


Willi91  (E 369)

May 29, 2012, 9:37 AM
Post #5 of 16 (1840 views)
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Re: [Decodiver] Swooping is fun when done right. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
90 straight to 270.........

Well, I have heard experienced swoopers say that it can be better to skip a 180 and go directly from 90 to 270. But I suppose you don't agree on that.


Decodiver  (D License)

May 29, 2012, 9:55 AM
Post #6 of 16 (1835 views)
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Re: [Willi91] Swooping is fun when done right. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
90 straight to 270.........

Well, I have heard experienced swoopers say that it can be better to skip a 180 and go directly from 90 to 270. But I suppose you don't agree on that.

I'm talking about a number of things which add up in my own sorry-arsed opinion to disagreeing with the title Swooping is fun when done right.

I too have heard a number of people talk about skipping from 90s to 270s but what are you going to do the day you need to do a 180 for an HP landing into a tight spot when you're off DZ and braked flight is not an option or a good idea?


(This post was edited by Decodiver on May 29, 2012, 10:04 AM)


DaVinciflies

May 29, 2012, 10:14 AM
Post #7 of 16 (1826 views)
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Re: [Willi91] Swooping is fun when done right. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
90 straight to 270.........

Well, I have heard experienced swoopers say that it can be better to skip a 180 and go directly from 90 to 270. But I suppose you don't agree on that.

FWIW - I certainly don't.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
May 29, 2012, 11:45 AM
Post #8 of 16 (1790 views)
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Re: [Willi91] Swooping is fun when done right. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Well, I have heard experienced swoopers say that it can be better to skip a 180 and go directly from 90 to 270. But I suppose you don't agree on that.

I don't agree with it either. 180's are a necessary part of the learning process. Don't get me wrong, I really don't like them, but they're a part of the process that shouldn't be skipped imo.

The biggest issue with them is the difficulty in flying a good pattern - especially since a lot of people don't do a base leg and go straight into their turn.

As with all things swoop, they should be practiced on a dedicated pass, in clean airspace.

Ian


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

May 29, 2012, 1:42 PM
Post #9 of 16 (1741 views)
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Re: [Decodiver] Swooping is fun when done right. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
but what are you going to do the day you need to do a 180 for an HP landing into a tight spot when you're off DZ and braked flight is not an option or a good idea?

I'm always up for learning new things, so excuse the ignorance...but when would a 180 front riser HP landing be a good idea but a brake turn not?


Decodiver  (D License)

May 29, 2012, 1:59 PM
Post #10 of 16 (1733 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Swooping is fun when done right. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
but what are you going to do the day you need to do a 180 for an HP landing into a tight spot when you're off DZ and braked flight is not an option or a good idea?

I'm always up for learning new things, so excuse the ignorance...but when would a 180 front riser HP landing be a good idea but a brake turn not?

By braked flight I mean not having the opportunity to use extra speed to ensure landing where it is safe as opposed to doing braked turns I have no problem with braked turns but have chosen to crack a 180 landing out on the side of a mountain, it gave me more options than landing my canopy in brakes.

The point is having the option and ability to do it safely, just another tool in the box.

Do you see a downside to having this type of tool?


(This post was edited by Decodiver on May 29, 2012, 2:39 PM)


AggieDave  (D License)

May 29, 2012, 4:39 PM
Post #11 of 16 (1664 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Swooping is fun when done right. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

The biggest issue with them is the difficulty in flying a good pattern - especially since a lot of people don't do a base leg and go straight into their turn.

As with all things swoop, they should be practiced on a dedicated pass, in clean airspace.

This.

If you want to be a swooper, you must be a respectful and safe swooper. So that means a lot of hop-n-pops by yourself on a dedicated pass.


Pablo.Moreno  (C 13216)

May 29, 2012, 6:58 PM
Post #12 of 16 (1626 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Swooping is fun when done right. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In a rush to do something maybe?

Well, At our dropzone we have about 60 days of jumping during the whole year ( weekend DZ only, and we don't jump on a <0 C weather, so winter jumps are out of the question), a 1/4 of those days are pretty much dedicated to students and another 1/2 is for tandems, and this with out counting the bad weekends because of weather. Also, to get demos to Canada it is pretty expensive with the brokers fees and UPS bending us down with all their fees, and to only be able to jump the canopy for two weekends, it isn't really worth it.

So, downsizing like that and, trying to keep jumping as much as possible is pretty much the only way I was able to progress this far, of course with out trying to overlap safety. There are time when we have an early start 6 am and after 15-18 jumps. I cant either freefly or swoop (by this i mean being optimal, with out risking safety) by 7 pm, I call it quits and start videoing landings and taking pictures.

Quote:
This.

If you want to be a swooper, you must be a respectful and safe swooper. So that means a lot of hop-n-pops by yourself on a dedicated pass.

Well, At our dropzone we have about 60 days of jumping during the whole year ( weekend DZ only, and we don't jump on a <0 C weather, so winter jumps are out of the question), a 1/4 of those days are pretty much dedicated to students and another 1/2 is for tandems, and this with out counting the bad weekends because of weather. Also, to get demos to Canada it is pretty expensive with the brokers fees and UPS bending us down with all their fees, and to only be able to jump the canopy for two weekends, it isn't really worth it.

So, to keep it safe and respectful for other jumpers, considering we have at most 6 jumpers in the air at the same time on our busiest jumps. Mark and I decide to apply some rules before we start to get serious and do some swooping training.

- If it didn't accommodate with everyone in the load,we wouldn't swoop.

- If there was anyone remotely close to our air space, we wouldn't swoop.

- If in the middle of the dive we realized we were far from the gates, besides slowing down or speeding up the rotation slightly we wouldn't force the dive to make the gates. We would adjust our IT point and try again.

- We set a swooping air space and landing area different from where the landing pattern and landings would occur, it is a similar idea of how people land in Arizona.

- We also take turns on who land first so we could have video of every other landing and we don't have two people trying to swoop at the same time.

- If other people want to go for the gates they have to come and get a briefing on how to approach the swooping landing area.


AdD  (D License)

May 31, 2012, 1:47 PM
Post #13 of 16 (1468 views)
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Re: [Pablo.Moreno] Swooping is fun when done right. [In reply to] Can't Post

One comment on your video. You still have roll on your wing pretty low to the ground. It would be bettern to have the wing level and both double fronts pulled down level and then let up to get a more shallow entry angle to swoop in the last 100-200 feet of the dive.


Pablo.Moreno  (C 13216)

May 31, 2012, 8:33 PM
Post #14 of 16 (1440 views)
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Re: [AdD] Swooping is fun when done right. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
One comment on your video. You still have roll on your wing pretty low to the ground. It would be bettern to have the wing level and both double fronts pulled down level and then let up to get a more shallow entry angle to swoop in the last 100-200 feet of the dive.

I have been trying to improve my technique and finish off on double front.
Thanks


5.samadhi

Jun 1, 2012, 7:41 AM
Post #15 of 16 (1350 views)
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Re: [AdD] Swooping is fun when done right. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
One comment on your video. You still have roll on your wing pretty low to the ground. It would be bettern to have the wing level and both double fronts pulled down level and then let up to get a more shallow entry angle to swoop in the last 100-200 feet of the dive.

better means...safer? longer? faster?

just curious what you meant Cool


AdD  (D License)

Jun 1, 2012, 5:45 PM
Post #16 of 16 (1272 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Swooping is fun when done right. [In reply to] Can't Post

All the above



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