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AFF students

 


skypagan  (D 15493)

May 26, 2012, 10:29 PM
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AFF students Can't Post

Just a thought, there I was, tumbling and spinning with a student who went completely haywire and I have to deploy him while spinning on our backs because it was only going to get worse. My stray thought was they DO NOT prepare the new AFFIs for this kind of thing. Been jumping 22 years and been teaching AFF for 18. Think it should be a requirement for new AFFI candidates to experience HARD spinning/fighting/multi-flipping in a precourse.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 27, 2012, 5:46 AM
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Re: [skypagan] AFF students [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree to a point.

Somehow, I don't think it's a good idea to do such radical maneuvers in the training because we really don't want to hurt, or even kill, candidates.

AFF students have no such concerns and real life will, as you point out, get much more hairy than anything the candidate will face in training.


skypagan  (D 15493)

May 27, 2012, 7:31 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] AFF students [In reply to] Can't Post

Definitely get what you're saying and agree that you don't want to get a candidate hurt, however a highly structured just try to hold on in an upside down spin then a separate just try to hold on in a tumble would really open some eyes.


dninness  (D 19617)

May 27, 2012, 3:51 PM
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Re: [skypagan] AFF students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Definitely get what you're saying and agree that you don't want to get a candidate hurt, however a highly structured just try to hold on in an upside down spin then a separate just try to hold on in a tumble would really open some eyes.

I learned a lot in the "prep jumps" I did, but I swear I picked up a lot more once I was rated and other instructors started sharing their tips and such. For example, the concept that the reserve side guy can (and often should) haul the exit around so the student is head down on the hill is not called out in the course at all. So there I am, all of about 3 AFF jumps to my name, and I've got a main-side telling me "You need to get a knee out and crank the whole thing around on exit.." and I'm thinking "Really?" (Mind you, up to that point I'd been operating on "don't drag the student out of the plane, don't screw up the exit, don't inhibit student learning" and not specific pro-active steps I could really be taking to improve the whole thing)

But yeah, really cranking around a student who is on his back and spinning with you attached is a skill that is not covered much (apart from the ever-helpful "Let go and re-approach")


skypagan  (D 15493)

May 27, 2012, 4:57 PM
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Re: [dninness] AFF students [In reply to] Can't Post

So very true you start your learning on real jumps. There will be a time or two when if you let the student go, you will not be able to get them again and even an AAD may not help due to how badly flailing they are, you then realize, wow, this could be a fatality, I need to pull them with some sense of control.


dirtbox  (D 31759)

May 27, 2012, 7:20 PM
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Re: [skypagan] AFF students [In reply to] Can't Post

I was... My first stop spins pre-course jump was a bit weak so we did it again. The next jump I got kick in my the head, it kind of drove the message home.

Some courses teach new AFFIs well, maybe some others don't? That said there are some types of experience that just can't be taught, it has to be learned in the real world (kind of like EPS... practice them on the ground but until your first chop it has all just been practice, hope you get it right...)


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

May 27, 2012, 9:35 PM
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Re: [skypagan] AFF students [In reply to] Can't Post

I think a couple of hours in the wind tunnel might make us all able to handle that kind of stuff. WinkTongueLaugh


curmudgeon

May 28, 2012, 5:18 AM
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Re: [dninness] AFF students [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm curious, and sorry that this is off topic, why do you feel the need to "crank" an AFF exit around? What circumstances prevail that make this desirable or necessary and what is the goal to such a maneuver? Thanks.


theonlyski  (D License)

May 28, 2012, 5:24 PM
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Re: [curmudgeon] AFF students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm curious, and sorry that this is off topic, why do you feel the need to "crank" an AFF exit around? What circumstances prevail that make this desirable or necessary and what is the goal to such a maneuver? Thanks.

Overall goal is to rotate the entire group of the 3 of you so that everyone is generally level, so the inside instructor and the student aren't likely to try to roll on their backs.

It helps, especially with a stiff student or one that has a poor arch on exit to help keep stability.


tkhayes  (D 18764)

May 29, 2012, 4:29 AM
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Re: [skypagan] AFF students [In reply to] Can't Post

hang on - focus on where you are and where the pilot chute is and honk that thing out and get the fuck out of the way.

That is all the training that is needed. You cannot simulate all situations.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 29, 2012, 4:41 AM
Post #11 of 15 (1695 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] AFF students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm curious, and sorry that this is off topic, why do you feel the need to "crank" an AFF exit around? What circumstances prevail that make this desirable or necessary and what is the goal to such a maneuver? Thanks.

Overall goal is to rotate the entire group of the 3 of you so that everyone is generally level, so the inside instructor and the student aren't likely to try to roll on their backs.

It helps, especially with a stiff student or one that has a poor arch on exit to help keep stability.

It helps even more when you have an inside I coming out late with her legs straight out. It only took me one jump with her to know to spin the damned formation so she doesn't come over the top.

That first time, I had to head butt her container to push her back over.
UnsureMad

If the inside guy gets it right, there should be no need to "crank" anything....it'll happen naturally.....if the outside I gets HIS legs out.
Smile


Premier skybytch  (D License)

May 29, 2012, 7:37 AM
Post #12 of 15 (1667 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] AFF students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That is all the training that is needed. You cannot simulate all situations.

Nor do we want to. Evaluators need to survive the skydives too.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

May 29, 2012, 7:44 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] AFF students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That first time, I had to head butt her container to push her back over.
UnsureMad

If the inside guy gets it right, there should be no need to "crank" anything....it'll happen naturally.....if the outside I gets HIS legs out.
Smile


+++++

(if the inside guy does it right, we can even ensure that a good exit from the student is rewarded by keeping the heading and the student gets to see the airplane after exit - Laughthat does a bit for an aware student to keep their chin up - that visual of the plan is a pretty sight for the student the first time)

that said, I had a learning curve my first few jumps on the inside slot (our most experienced guy gave me a couple hints that fixed it - we're always learning). And, on the other side of the dive, I've had to push the inside guy back onto the hill a lot more times than I'm happy to admit. Nothing sucks worse that seeing a really good student launch and then the exit not showing him that because one of us didn't do it perfect - the student deserves the reward for doing his job)


(This post was edited by rehmwa on May 29, 2012, 7:46 AM)


floormonkey  (D License)

May 29, 2012, 8:43 AM
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Re: [skypagan] AFF students [In reply to] Can't Post

If candidates didn't experience this during the course, perhaps they should have picked a different evaluator.

We did some hard spin stops, resistant students, etc during my course.

We talked about turning the "piece" off the hill to get stable more quickly.

We talked about how to get the student out of the airplane in an emergency.

My course covered many things that did not seem to be covered by other evaluators, or at least not recalled by their candidates when comparing notes afterwards.

In 500+ AFF instructional jumps, I have yet to have a student work me out to the same level as my "graduation" evaluation jump, and I've had some "dynamic" students.

The blanket statements people make about how easy the AFF eval course is, or how well they prepare a potential instructor are broad generalizations that do not apply to every examiner or candidate. I have worked with new instructors from a few different examiners, and there is decided difference in the resulting product and how well they are prepared for the (somewhat) real world of AFF.

Quality of instruction counts. Sometimes the course that comes to you is not as good as the course you have to travel to attend.

And, as instructors, we all know that just because you teach something to a student does not mean they will retain the information. The performance of a FJC student is not always a correct reflection of the quality of instruction they received, and I am sure it is the same with newly minted AFF Instructors.

"Before anything else, preparation is the key to success" -Alexander Graham Bell


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 29, 2012, 4:04 PM
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Re: [floormonkey] AFF students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
....And, as instructors, we all know that just because you teach something to a student does not mean they will retain the information.....and I am sure it is the same with newly minted AFF Instructors.

True. Not the real problem though. The real problem currently is no evaluation on general skydiving knowledge, no follow-up evaluations, no field testing to see what the AFFIs are really doing, no verifiable standardization.

Hell, too many make up shit as they go along.



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