Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Brakes off

 


shah269  (A 59581)

May 24, 2012, 1:27 PM
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Brakes off Can't Post

The other day I borrowed a student rig and took it for my recurrency jump. All went well and when I deployed I noticed that the breaks were not set to half.
It's a 260 navigator and I'm 200lbs of meatsicle. So I was ok. But what got me was how smooth yet brisk the opening was.
Can someone explain why this is?
I just assumed it would have been much harsher.

ha ha ok bite me!


(This post was edited by shah269 on May 24, 2012, 2:47 PM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

May 24, 2012, 1:29 PM
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Re: [shah269] Breaks off [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
barrowed....breaks.....meetsicle

sorry, 3 strykes and yore owt


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

May 24, 2012, 3:21 PM
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Re: [shah269] Brakes off [In reply to] Can't Post

If the brake lines had as much slack in them as student rigs I've jumped at one dropzone, then setting them to half would have done bugger all in the first place.


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

May 24, 2012, 3:34 PM
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Re: [Quagmirian] Brakes off [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Quag,

Quote:
If the brake lines had as much slack in them as student rigs I've jumped at one dropzone, then setting them to half would have done bugger all in the first place.

Two different things.

1. Is the distance from the brake loop to the toggle. This is often lengthened on student canopies.

2. The location of the brake loop does not change when #1 changes.

The brakes 'are set' when the finger of the steering toggle goes through the brake loop. I see no reason why this should ever change; except for wear, etc.

JerryBaumchen


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 24, 2012, 6:27 PM
Post #5 of 12 (1378 views)
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Re: [shah269] Brakes off [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
what got me was how smooth yet brisk the opening was.
Can someone explain why this is?

You have it backwards. Openings get harder with deeper brake settings, not shallow. Leaving the brakes unstowed is extremely shallow (actually non-existant), but the effect is the same.

For example, one reason worn linesets can cause hard openings is that the steering lines shrink over time, and provide a deeper and deeper setting over time.

This is also why pumping the toggles can bring down a stuck slider or open a closed end-cell, the deeper the brakes are held, the more the canopy wants to open.

All that aside, let's talk about the fact that you picked up rental rig off a rack (I assume) and it was packed without the brakes being stowed. In this case, the opening was OK, but a side effect of not stowing the brakes is that steering lines extend further into the pack job and can create an increased risk for a line-over. Additionally, it means that as soon as the canopy opens it's flying at full flight, and if you open near another canopy, that's not going to help you avoid a collision.

I would enquire about the DZ policies regarding who can, or can not, pack the student/rental equipment, and what their qualifications are. Any packer with a couple weeks worth of experience could easily tell that the tail would be hanging far lower during the pack job, and surmise that the brakes were not stowed.

If the DZ is in the habit of allowing the renters to pack for themselves, that's great all except for their last jump on the rig. That pack job needs to be reserved for a staff packer as that pack job will be jumped by someone other than the person who packed it. I say this not based on the 'legality' of it, just based on the concept that when you rent a rig you expect it to be properly assembled, maintained, and packed, and you cannot be assured of that just letting 'anyone' pack it and hang it up on the rack.


(This post was edited by davelepka on May 24, 2012, 6:29 PM)


nigel99  (D 1)

May 24, 2012, 8:37 PM
Post #6 of 12 (1323 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Brakes off [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the wildest rides I've had was on a rental 170. I don't know who packed it but they weren't very good. It is the first and only time I've been exposed to diving line twists.

A rental gear packed with unstowed brakes is inexcusable. One thing people need to remember is that on rental gear if you lose/damage the main you are picking up the tab for it. The flip side is the DZ needs to ensure rental gear is fit for purpose and suitably packed.


Waldschrat

May 24, 2012, 9:52 PM
Post #7 of 12 (1301 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Brakes off [In reply to] Can't Post

That sounds very right and true....


fcajump  (D 15598)

May 25, 2012, 8:42 AM
Post #8 of 12 (1149 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Brakes off [In reply to] Can't Post

One key to what to expect of a rental gear is to see what the DZ's SOP is for student/rental repacks...

Years ago, more than one DZ I was at, the more experienced students who had been signed off to pack their own mains we expected to pack the rig they had just used and put it back on the rack for use (even if they weren't going again).

While the DZ's I am now do not follow that old practice, take a look at who is packing the rental rigs before agreeing to use it without repacking it yourself.

Remember, (in the USA) it is manditory that either a licensed rigger, someone under the direct supervision of a rigger, or the individual who is jumping the gear be the packer of the main.

If you're not comfortable with the already packed rig, repack it yourself (with assistance as needed).

JW


dthames  (B 37674)

May 25, 2012, 10:23 AM
Post #9 of 12 (1106 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Brakes off [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
One key to what to expect of a rental gear is to see what the DZ's SOP is for student/rental repacks...

Years ago, more than one DZ I was at, the more experienced students who had been signed off to pack their own mains we expected to pack the rig they had just used and put it back on the rack for use (even if they weren't going again).

While the DZ's I am now do not follow that old practice, take a look at who is packing the rental rigs before agreeing to use it without repacking it yourself.

<snip>
/reply]

Even recently I have jumped at a DZ that students pack under supervision with several specific rigger checkpoints throughout the pack job. All student rigs are flat/tab packed, so it is not a problem to get to a checkpoint, leave it on the floor until you can be checked, then continue to the next steps.


Andy9o8  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 8:49 PM
Post #10 of 12 (1020 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Brakes off [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
One key to what to expect of a rental gear is to see what the DZ's SOP is for student/rental repacks...

Years ago, more than one DZ I was at, the more experienced students who had been signed off to pack their own mains we expected to pack the rig they had just used and put it back on the rack for use (even if they weren't going again).

While the DZ's I am now do not follow that old practice, take a look at who is packing the rental rigs before agreeing to use it without repacking it yourself.

Remember, (in the USA) it is manditory that either a licensed rigger, someone under the direct supervision of a rigger, or the individual who is jumping the gear be the packer of the main.

If you're not comfortable with the already packed rig, repack it yourself (with assistance as needed). JW

The culture that existed prior to the the commonality of packers was that people packed their own - including rentals (unless they were borrowing a friend's rig he'd already packed). In other words, time was that when you rented a DZ rig, the first thing you did was open it up and re-pack it before you jumped it. Except for students, jumping a random rig where you had no idea who'd packed it was unheard of. I've never been fully comfortable with the loss of that custom.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on May 25, 2012, 8:50 PM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

May 26, 2012, 6:34 PM
Post #11 of 12 (919 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Brakes off [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The culture that existed prior to the the commonality of packers was that people packed their own - including rentals (unless they were borrowing a friend's rig he'd already packed). In other words, time was that when you rented a DZ rig, the first thing you did was open it up and re-pack it before you jumped it. Except for students, jumping a random rig where you had no idea who'd packed it was unheard of. I've never been fully comfortable with the loss of that custom. of common sense

Sparky


nigel99  (D 1)

May 26, 2012, 7:48 PM
Post #12 of 12 (906 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Brakes off [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The culture that existed prior to the the commonality of packers was that people packed their own - including rentals (unless they were borrowing a friend's rig he'd already packed). In other words, time was that when you rented a DZ rig, the first thing you did was open it up and re-pack it before you jumped it. Except for students, jumping a random rig where you had no idea who'd packed it was unheard of. I've never been fully comfortable with the loss of that custom. of common sense

Sparky

Sparky, while I agree with the sentiment in practice this doesn't work in a typical busy dz for your typical rental gear. In my experience everything from a 190 upwards is shared with students and they take priority. So you could have just repacked a main and have the rig pulled from your for a student.

In a club environment I firmly believe in the 'old' approach. In a more commercial environment the dz is supplying you equipment and as such it should be fit for purpose and ready to go.

Honestly the US packing regulations need to be revisited to catch up with the times. I really like the Australian regulations, now that I have had the chance to get into them. We have a 'packer B' rating and student/rental gear and tandems can only be packed by a packer B or higher. I've only just opened discussions with the Chief Instructor on getting my packer B rating so I'm still learning.



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