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Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately

 

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Nutz  (D License)

May 21, 2012, 4:14 AM
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Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately Can't Post

But I am sure there have been some close calls. Tongue Watch out for other canopies in the landing pattern. Pick a landing direction and stick with it! Mad


(This post was edited by Nutz on May 21, 2012, 4:15 AM)


danornan  (D 11308)

May 24, 2012, 5:29 AM
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Re: [Nutz] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Pick a landing direction and stick with it! Mad

I really think that that is part of the problem, and I know that an answer to a short internet forum may not get your complete intent! If not then I apologize. My example is for a 20 seat otter or several airplanes in the air at the same time and not a 4 seater Cessna.

Unless the pattern and landing direction are determined before getting on the airplane, there is always a chance of confusion. First one down, follow the spinning wind sock, accidently follow a down wind swooper can all lead to confusion.

Some race to be first one down and then, who do you follow? Wind sock moves and what is your landing direction? Swooper lands down wind and many are afraid to do that!

So, now, what do YOU do?

My point is that only a pre-determined landing direction will safely work and I don't see it enforced on a regular basis.

I land as far from the peas as possible.


(This post was edited by danornan on May 24, 2012, 5:30 AM)


DaVinciflies

May 24, 2012, 7:32 AM
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Re: [danornan] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Swooper lands down wind and many are afraid to do that!

To me that's a pretty good indicator that someone is on too small a canopy for them.

If they're too scared to do a planned downwind landing into an open landing area, what happens during a forced downwinder into a confined area?


danornan  (D 11308)

May 24, 2012, 7:37 AM
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

They either get hurt, cause someone else to get hurt or one or the other dies... I've watched it happen and it's not pretty.


Abedy  (D 10153)

May 24, 2012, 8:47 AM
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Re: [danornan] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My point is that only a pre-determined landing direction will safely work

I occasionally jump at another DZ here in Thuringia. They do have a wind sock but the rule is "Everyone lands according to the landing T."
Works really well especially on low wind days with occasional direction changes. And even if jumpers have to land 30 crosswind (may happen) that's small change. They also emphasize on "left hand pattern" and "don't spiral down" and - most important - "Everyone fly with a sound mind and open eyes".

If someone behaves... well, "strange" or so, s/he gets talked to calmly, but not in the open.

I like this policy and attitude and it works, haven't heard of any landing incidents there and they very often have big way days/weeks.


(This post was edited by Abedy on May 24, 2012, 11:14 AM)


danornan  (D 11308)

May 24, 2012, 9:47 AM
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Re: [Abedy] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
My point is that only a pre-determined landing direction will safely work

I occasionally jump at another DZ here in Thuringia. They do have a wind sock but the rule is "Everyone lands according to the landing T."
Works really well especially on low wind days with occasional direction changes. And even if jumpers have to land 30 crosswind (may happen) that's small change. They also emphasize on "left hand pattern" and "don't spiral down" and - most important - "Everyone fly with a sound mind and open eyes".

If someone behaves... well, "strange" or so, s/he gets talked to calmly, but not in the open.

I like this policy and attitude and it works, haven't heard of any landing incidents there and they very often have big way days/weeks. and

Sounds like a good rational plan - Too bad more DZ's don't follow this simple plan. It sure would cut down on the injuries and fatalities. I don't understand why more skydivers don't speak up! It airports were run like most DZ's the FAA would shut them down.


wmw999  (D 6296)

May 24, 2012, 12:09 PM
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Swooper lands down wind and many are afraid to do that!
Quote:
To me that's a pretty good indicator that someone is on too small a canopy for them.
Afraid, maybe. But I don't want to land downwind in any kind of significant wind; my preference is a landing where I kind of float down and touch.
Someone who's planning on landing with the wind and swooping has no business setting landing direction on a large load. That's why swooping is supposed to be separated from the other landings.

When winds are light and variable it's a different story, but I'm talking about the guy who sees that steady 6mph as just the added boost he needs

Wendy P.


DaVinciflies

May 24, 2012, 12:34 PM
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Re: [wmw999] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

I think we maybe talking about different things.

I totally agree that a swooper going downwind should not be setting the direction for a large load, but my point was that if a downwind pattern is set (for whatever reason - wind direction change, for example) then all experienced jumpers owe it to themselves and others to be OK with landing their chosen canopy downwind instead of flying against the pattern or doing a low panic turn to get into the wind.


dirtbox  (D 31759)

May 24, 2012, 2:17 PM
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

Follow first person down, simple. If you can't do that get a different canopy. Next, punch the stupid fuck who set a down wind pattern, he shouldn't have done that Pirate but you still have to follow first down.


sundevil777  (D License)

May 24, 2012, 2:27 PM
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Re: [dirtbox] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

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Follow first person down, simple.

Following the first down is not always simple. It is very easy for more than one person to be landing (first) at nearly the same time.

Requiring people to focus on the first down takes their attention away from where they should be focused - the others around them.

First down rules suck, in my opinion.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on May 24, 2012, 2:27 PM)


danornan  (D 11308)

May 27, 2012, 7:01 AM
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Re: [sundevil777] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Follow first person down, simple.

Following the first down is not always simple. It is very easy for more than one person to be landing (first) at nearly the same time.

Requiring people to focus on the first down takes their attention away from where they should be focused - the others around them.

First down rules suck, in my opinion.

I agree!!!!! Too simple and prone to problems.

Poor choice, but it seems to be the easiest and has by default become the landing of choice. It is also the source of a lot of landing injuries.

FYI - I'm speaking from a larger DZ perspective. Maybe the smaller DZs can get away with "first One Down."


(This post was edited by danornan on May 27, 2012, 7:06 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
May 27, 2012, 9:16 AM
Post #12 of 26 (1885 views)
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Re: [danornan] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

>Maybe the smaller DZs can get away with "first One Down."

Perhaps. And DZ's that don't have rapid wind changes work well with fixed landing directions.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

May 27, 2012, 1:26 PM
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Re: [billvon] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Maybe the smaller DZs can get away with "first One Down."

Perhaps. And DZ's that don't have rapid wind changes work well with fixed landing directions.

We've seen this discussion time and time again. I'm not a fan of first man down. When I'm on a DZ that uses this method, I adhere to the rule. However, it (to me) seems to be problematic and confusing. If you're on a DZ that has wind direction issues, etc, I just feel there are better ways to deal with the issues.

IMHO of course, and I know many disagree.


danornan  (D 11308)

May 27, 2012, 3:53 PM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

Nope, I think I agree with you...

Don't understand why we don't do it like airplanes. They have a landing pattern and it works. Deviate from the pattern you probably have a meeting with the FAA.


Squeak  (E 1313)

May 27, 2012, 5:30 PM
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Re: [danornan] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Nope, I think I agree with you...

Don't understand why we don't do it like airplanes. They have a landing pattern and it works. Deviate from the pattern you probably have a meeting with the FAA.
they have a landing pattern BECAUSE the runways are immovable, Planes cannot just land "into wind" they have to land on the runway(s) available. We have the luxury of being able to choose our runway each jump. Choosing the correct one seems to be a problem for some people.


danornan  (D 11308)

May 27, 2012, 6:20 PM
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Re: [Squeak] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:
Nope, I think I agree with you...

Don't understand why we don't do it like airplanes. They have a landing pattern and it works. Deviate from the pattern you probably have a meeting with the FAA.
they have a landing pattern BECAUSE the runways are immovable, Planes cannot just land "into wind" they have to land on the runway(s) available. We have the luxury of being able to choose our runway each jump. Choosing the correct one seems to be a problem for some people.

If everyone chooses their runway, it won't work. The runway must be determined before anyone lands. If gliders can do it safely, skydivers can do it safely.


jclalor  (B 33202)

May 27, 2012, 6:50 PM
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Re: [Nutz] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In reply to:
But I am sure there have been some close calls. Tongue Watch out for other canopies in the landing pattern. Pick a landing direction and stick with it! Mad

I have jumped at the American boogie the last few years, it's a great boogie. It seems every morning the winds are L&V with whole Skyvan loads landing in ever which direction, at times, it's some scary shit. A friend broke her hip a few years ago related to this.

I really wish they would set a defaut pattern in the morning, I land about 2500 ft away and take the van back.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

May 27, 2012, 7:11 PM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I just feel there are better ways to deal with the issues.

Can you share these better ways with us?

Sparky


danornan  (D 11308)

May 28, 2012, 3:26 PM
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Re: [mjosparky] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I just feel there are better ways to deal with the issues.

Can you share these better ways with us?

Sparky

It is very simple - A predictable pattern determined before anyone gets on the airplane. Everyone lands in the same direction or you don't skydive.


theonlyski  (D License)

May 28, 2012, 4:37 PM
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Re: [danornan] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I just feel there are better ways to deal with the issues.

Can you share these better ways with us?

Sparky

It is very simple - A predictable pattern determined before anyone gets on the airplane. Everyone lands in the same direction or you don't skydive.

What if the winds have shifted 180* in the 20 mins you were in the air, now you have an entire load taking it downwind... sure, we SHOULD be able to all land downwind, but be realistic...


nigel99  (D 1)

May 28, 2012, 5:29 PM
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Re: [theonlyski] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I just feel there are better ways to deal with the issues.

Can you share these better ways with us?

Sparky

It is very simple - A predictable pattern determined before anyone gets on the airplane. Everyone lands in the same direction or you don't skydive.

It is very simple and many dzs already do it. You have a landing T or arrow that sets the landing direction. Expecting an otter load of jumpers to follow a first man down would only be safe IF the fmd was designated prior to boarding and had the apropriate deployment altitude, canopy type and wingloading to ensure he set the pattern early enough.

Honestly the whole fmd issue is a copout for laziness.

What if the winds have shifted 180* in the 20 mins you were in the air, now you have an entire load taking it downwind... sure, we SHOULD be able to all land downwind, but be realistic...


DaVinciflies

May 29, 2012, 2:28 AM
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Re: [theonlyski] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

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What if the winds have shifted 180* in the 20 mins you were in the air, now you have an entire load taking it downwind... sure, we SHOULD be able to all land downwind, but be realistic...

You could argue that in the not-all-that-common situation where a substantial wind (say >8mph) changes 180*, it would be better for that load to all land downwind in a predictable pattern than for individuals to start changing the plan "on the fly". It might make people better canopy pilots, too.


danornan  (D 11308)

May 29, 2012, 3:46 AM
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What if the winds have shifted 180* in the 20 mins you were in the air, now you have an entire load taking it downwind... sure, we SHOULD be able to all land downwind, but be realistic...

You could argue that in the not-all-that-common situation where a substantial wind (say >8mph) changes 180*, it would be better for that load to all land downwind in a predictable pattern than for individuals to start changing the plan "on the fly". It might make people better canopy pilots, too.

+1

Simple and safe. If you cannot land your canopy downwind then maybe it is not the correct canopy for you! Better to slide, do a PLF or land correctly then to be unpredictable and kill yourself or someone else.

But there is still resistance!


jumpwally  (D License)

Jun 7, 2012, 8:29 AM
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Re: [danornan] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

Easier yet,,land away from the maddness and land in the direction you want,,whats wrong with walking a hundred yards of so ? Crazy


danornan  (D 11308)

Jun 7, 2012, 8:54 AM
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Re: [jumpwally] Guys, We Ain't Had A Reminder Lately [In reply to] Can't Post

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Easier yet,,land away from the maddness and land in the direction you want,,whats wrong with walking a hundred yards of so ? Crazy

A great solution on the larger DZ's.... On the smaller ones, it is safer to be in the pattern and be predictable. Of course, at some DZ's being unpredictable is the norm and landing far away from the normal landing area is a lot safer.


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