Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Wing Suit Flying:
Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed.

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 12 Next page Last page  View All

Para5-0  (D 19054)

May 14, 2012, 11:31 AM
Post #1 of 276 (5746 views)
Shortcut
Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. Can't Post

Hello,

My name is Rich Winstock and I am a National Director with the United States Parachute Association. At the last board meeting I was charged with chairing a sub-committee to determine whether or not our sport is in need of a Wingsuit Instructors rating and a standardized First Flight Course and if so who should be responsible for overseeing it. The committee consists of Sherry Butcher (USPA Secretary & National Director), Randy Allison (USPA Vice President & Mid Eastern Regional Director), Tony Thacker (USPA Mid-Atlantic Regional Director), and Merriah Eakins (USPA North Central Regional Director). It is the responsibility of the committee to reach out to the wingsuit community, DZO's, S&TA's, USPA Staff, Manufacturers, and General Membership to get as much input as possible, allowing us to make an informed educated recommendation. We the committee are attempting to perform our due diligence on this topic and include as many authorities as possible before we make an official recommendation back to Safety & Training. Albeit the ultimate decision will rest with the entire USPA BOD.

If you feel you have the knowledge, experience, and professionalism required to assist us, we would love to hear from you. The committee has come up with a short questionnaire that asks specifically designed questions to get detailed information on the topic. We know we are not experts on this topic, that is why we are reaching out to the wingsuit community for help. We are well aware that each person will have their own personal feelings on this issue and we welcome those thoughts, but please answer the questions as objectively and honestly as possible.

Attached please find a short questionnaire that shouldn’t take you too long to complete. If you can please answer all of the questions based on your current experience, knowledge, and skydiving education we would greatly appreciate it. I promise that all questionnaires that are received will be read in their entirety by each member of the committee. If you know someone who has not received this questionnaire and you feel their qualifications dictate their opinions would benefit the committee, by all means, please forward it to them. Once you are done with the questionnaire please forward it back to me at rwinstock@encorenationwide.com with the questionnaire as an attachment.

I would like to take a moment and thank you in advance for your help and time. If you have any questions, feedback, or would like to discuss any particulars feel free to reach out to me.

One note- Please only respond if you are serious, sifting through spam will only hurt the process.

Kind Regards and Blue Skys,
Rich Winstock


(This post was edited by Para5-0 on May 14, 2012, 2:17 PM)
Attachments: Winsuit Advisor Questionaire.doc (48.5 KB)


Para5-0  (D 19054)

May 14, 2012, 3:12 PM
Post #2 of 276 (5661 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Para5-0] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

To those that have taken the time to give your thoughts, thank you.


5.samadhi

May 15, 2012, 8:57 AM
Post #3 of 276 (5533 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Para5-0] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it would be bad if it becomes controlled by the USPA with the fees involved that always seem to accompany this kind of control. I learned to fly wingsuit from my friend who has over a decade of wingsuit experience for free on one of his beginner suits. My cost for my first few jumps was the cost of my jump tickets.

Plus, I've noticed people with ratings tend (not all but some) to think about 'recouping' the costs (time and money) of acquiring the rating so they are more likely to charge for the coach jump they are doing. That is not the spirit of how skydiving should be in my opinion.

Wingsuiting is a relatively new discipline and I think wingsuiters should work in the early stages to keep the USPA away from controlling the learning and flying process.


(This post was edited by 5.samadhi on May 15, 2012, 9:02 AM)


Para5-0  (D 19054)

May 15, 2012, 9:50 AM
Post #4 of 276 (5506 views)
Shortcut
Re: [5.samadhi] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

Reference the fees. It has no bearing on the outcome. All coaches or instructors pay one fee to USPA to keep them. If they are a coach or instructor it is exactly the same fee. No change at all.

This is really boiling down to a question of safety and whether the intervention by USPA is warranted or if in fact needed. I am not saying either way, we are just trying to get as much input as possible. I have over 50 responses in so far.


ifell  (C 3591)

May 15, 2012, 11:02 AM
Post #5 of 276 (5473 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Para5-0] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think this was about the fee for the coach course as well as general fees encountered throughout ones skydiving career, not just the annual fee


gzimmermann  (D 31852)

May 15, 2012, 11:24 AM
Post #6 of 276 (5455 views)
Shortcut
Re: [5.samadhi] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

I just went through the questionnaire briefly. I will participate and I for myself very much appreciate Rich's way in gathering more opinions. To me it is not at all about USPA and potentially fees involved. It is about avoiding tragic accidents in a discipline that is growing rapidly. Just to mention some recent issues and rumors:
- Tail strikes due to improper exits. They seem to grow to an extent that the community does not even share all evidence anymore. Like: Was there an incident in Germany with a Pac recently and is there even some footage around that nobody wants to share? Do we dare to talk to a colleague who is experienced but jumps out of a Caravan with open leg wing? Does a DZ moving from a Porter to a Pac take ideas on how to implement rules for Wingsuiters to exit more safely from the new jumpship?
- Is there a need to separate WS flightpaths and deployment zones from Tandems?
- Is it ok to turn 180 in the flightpath used by other wingsuiters? Happened to me more than once...
- And my most recent one: A fatality reported in Hungary which seems to have some reason in lacking proper training to get out of instability.

I believe that the most important organization in the world representing "our" discipline should take all actions needed to make it even safer. Not by bringing unnecessary rules but by taking it at the roots:
Basic safety requirements and a mandatory introduction. Just like they have done with canopy flying for B-license only recently. If this involves a new rating for coaching/instruction, then YES! I very much like sharing the sky with a growing number of fellow wingsuiters. I make my mistakes and take feedback. Let's make sure, newcomers have a good start!


VectorBoy  (F 321)

May 15, 2012, 7:36 PM
Post #7 of 276 (5365 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Para5-0] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

A couple of questions if I may. What would be the path for those currently flying wingsuits if the first flight under instruction becomes mandatory. I guestimate its a few thousand people. Would they be grandfathered or would they need a " recurrancy" jump with one of the new instructors?

And as to the current batch of factory instructors, would they be grandfathered or have to receive additional training from a USPA wingsuit instructor examiner?


(This post was edited by VectorBoy on May 15, 2012, 7:37 PM)


5.samadhi

May 16, 2012, 8:18 AM
Post #8 of 276 (5279 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Para5-0] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Reference the fees. It has no bearing on the outcome. All coaches or instructors pay one fee to USPA to keep them. If they are a coach or instructor it is exactly the same fee. No change at all.

This is really boiling down to a question of safety and whether the intervention by USPA is warranted or if in fact needed. I am not saying either way, we are just trying to get as much input as possible. I have over 50 responses in so far.
Well, the fees would be the courses for the rating and the charges for prospective students for flying. I think if you made it mandatory then free first flight courses would not happen as much as they are now (friend to friend on the dz). This would foster more of a commercial vibe to the discipline than exists now and would taint the experience.

Why doesnt USPA offer their time for free to collaborate safety information for wingsuiters? Wingsuiters are offering their time for free now to teach new wingsuiters why would USPA step in and try to get money involved???

Seems like typical bullshit that follows all such organizations.


mccordia  (D 94775)

May 16, 2012, 8:29 AM
Post #9 of 276 (5272 views)
Shortcut
Re: [5.samadhi] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

I may be reading this wrong, but it seems like 'safety' is low on a lot of peoples agenda, and fear of having to pay for any form of coaching and instruction is the main drive to stick to the current situation.

A rating will not change the fact that some teach for free and some teach for a coaching fee. It will how-ever standardize a lot of the training and methods, and mean that anyone who does an FFC will get the same information, safety briefing on exits, recovery procedures everywhere. And not be dependant of what the friend who teaches was or wasnt taught himself in the past and thinks is important to know.

That aside. Some people will ask money regardless of a rating or not.
Depending on the coach you pick, regardless if its an FFC or advanced flying on performance or acrobatics they are coaching in. They most likely ask the money because its their profession. And they are experts at what they do, and what they teach.

In the end, you are the one choosing to pay or not pay. But if the coach you select is any good, it should be money well spent, and instruction worth every penny. Most fulltime skydivers are in the sport because they love flying and love teaching. Very few are saving up for ferarris..Sly


5.samadhi

May 16, 2012, 8:48 AM
Post #10 of 276 (5256 views)
Shortcut
Re: [mccordia] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It will how-ever standardize a lot of the training and methods, and mean that anyone who does an FFC will get the same information, safety briefing on exits, recovery procedures everywhere. And not be dependant of what the friend who teaches was or wasnt taught himself in the past and thinks is important to know.
by the way, this is not necessarily accomplished with a rating. It is accomplished with a manual on how first flight courses should be conducted (which I think DSE on this website has started). There is no need to insert a rating into the work needed to be done. It is simply an effort of putting together the information and consulting experience wingsuit instructors and then making the information freely available for anybody to download by PDF.


piisfish

May 16, 2012, 8:53 AM
Post #11 of 276 (5250 views)
Shortcut
Re: [5.samadhi] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

you like free stuff don't you ?
As I read you, you would want other people to MAKE EFFORTS and WORK A LOT to provide free stuff ? I like your kind of communism. Once you get the free stuff, could you print it out and mail it to me ?


5.samadhi

May 16, 2012, 9:40 AM
Post #12 of 276 (5233 views)
Shortcut
Re: [piisfish] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
you like free stuff don't you ?
As I read you, you would want other people to MAKE EFFORTS and WORK A LOT to provide free stuff ? I like your kind of communism. Once you get the free stuff, could you print it out and mail it to me ?
I'm honestly not able to decipher this post whether you are being sarcastic or not. I do like free stuff (not sarcastic). I think there is honor in being one of the experienced wingsuit pilots that would contribute their time/knowledge to the compilation of a manual. Would it be a lot of work to compile a manual and post it on a website for free download (serious question)? I would think a few days of conference calls, meetings, discussion, and then compilation and the work would be done. It's not like we're talking about making somebody work for years on a project for no pay Tongue

By the way, the manual would provide a direct response to the need for the information to be standardized among first flight courses, but would not require a rating which would be accompanied by fees (with no benefit to the person being assessed the fee).

A fee with no benefit is not right imo.

carry on you regulated sport you! Sly


5.samadhi

May 16, 2012, 9:44 AM
Post #13 of 276 (5231 views)
Shortcut
Re: [piisfish] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Once you get the free stuff, could you print it out and mail it to me ?
by the way, if you really need help printing the manual out then I would volunteer my help. I find it hard to believe you cannot get to a library and print it out yourself but if your case is special then somebody should step up and help you with your handicap. Have you heard of altruism?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
May 16, 2012, 10:46 AM
Post #14 of 276 (5208 views)
Shortcut
Re: [5.samadhi] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
It will how-ever standardize a lot of the training and methods, and mean that anyone who does an FFC will get the same information, safety briefing on exits, recovery procedures everywhere. And not be dependant of what the friend who teaches was or wasnt taught himself in the past and thinks is important to know.
by the way, this is not necessarily accomplished with a rating. It is accomplished with a manual on how first flight courses should be conducted (which I think DSE on this website has started). There is no need to insert a rating into the work needed to be done. It is simply an effort of putting together the information and consulting experience wingsuit instructors and then making the information freely available for anybody to download by PDF.

The "manual" is the SIM, and the SIM was written predominantly by myself, Jeff Donohue, Scott Callantine, Sean Horton. There were others on the team, but the primary wordsmithing was done by us as a team, after the initial "manual" was created in a Google WAVE doc. That aside...

A "manual" doesn't assure that standards are taught and met. For example...(IMO) the reason we're seeing the tailstrike increase, is because of how people are being taught to exit, and in many cases, taught to exit with big suits and no real experience. There are good forms of exits that are clean regardless of the type of suit, and there are exits that encourage tailstrike potential.

Deployments are another example. Look on fb or YouTube even as recent as last week, and see FFC's where the student is deploying in a full track, no slowing down. On two of them (different jumps) they're complaining about the hard openings. This is due to training, at least one of them from a "my friend gave me a free course." That friend might just be hurting his buddy but doesn't understand enough about mechanics, or wasn't properly taught himself.

Instability recovery. I can't begin to number the students that have shown up at Skydive Elsinore for advanced coaching, but knew absolutely nothing about recovering from instability or a spin. I had a student here in Hawaii only yesterday, terrified of a spin because of a close friend who died as a result of not knowing how to manage instability. "Ball up" is the catch phrase to everyone that talks about it, if they talk about it at all. Well...there are better, tested, compared, and demonstrated techniques.

Off landings...seems most coaches don't really address this, yet it's the second biggest concern that USPA, DZO's, and FAA have with our discipline. It's not unusual to read a wingsuiter bragging "dude, we landed 5 miles off the DZ!" like that's a good thing. It's not a good thing. In one case, the wingsuiter had an AAD fire, landed in a backyard doing damage to a fence. This doesn't bode well.

We also have different flying patterns, patterns that have an affect on the operations of the DZ regardless of size. Several DZ's have at least temporarily banned WS due to bad pattern management or other safety issues. Most of those DZ's have reinstated WS after a lot of discussion, planning, and agreement to adhere to standard WS patterns.

Most people who have been in the sport for a while agree that they wish the'd foreseen small canopies, low turns, swooping prior to experience and knowledge leading the process (canopy issues in general) and could have implemented some form of control, regulation, prevention, protection (whatever) that may have saved a few lives and kept the FAA and local governments out of skydiving. Wingsuiting presents itself to be much the same. The past three years have been terrific for wingsuiting in that we have high profile placement on Youtube, vimeo, and mainstream media. The BASE vids, PF proximity series, XRW, and many news shows plus major motion pictures....it adds up to a lot of good attention that brings more people to our sport and discipline. The past three years have also been challenging, because of tailstrikes, injuries, off landings, problems with DZO's, landowners, and airport management. All the good press in the world won't convince an airport manager or DZO that wingsuits are a greater liability than an asset if they start going down that negative road.

There are a lot of great people providing not-so-great information to their friends, and as we grow as a discipline, having standards to which all training is applied benefits everyone. Tandem, AFF, Static line, and IAD have all benefitted from standardized instructional processes.
There are growing pains, regardless of which direction this particular conversation goes. The idea is to minimize the growing pains wherever possible.


normiss  (D 28356)

May 21, 2012, 6:18 AM
Post #15 of 276 (5044 views)
Shortcut
Re: [5.samadhi] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

Wanna learn wingsuiting from a pdf???
Unsure
Good luck reading it in freefall.
Crazy


black_rig

Jun 9, 2012, 6:46 AM
Post #16 of 276 (4887 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Para5-0] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

I have seen overregulation taking over many activities (scuba diving, general aviation). Each time regulation is promoted by people who hope to grandfather themselves in as instructor, to make more money by forcing mandatory training to everybody else. The argument are always the same: safety, safety, people will die without the mandatory training.
Eventually the training tax is imposed on everybody. As it increases the cost and hassle it decreases the number of participants and kills the sport. But the percentage of accident is unchanged (because the activity is inherently risky and saying all risk is related to improper training is a lie). People start older as they need more money. After running the cost of formation so high, instructors eventually run out of students, and have to promote even more regulation to maintain their income. The number of participants decreases each year and the sport dies. Even instructors and manufacturers eventually cannot live on it. Then they turn back and speak of the good old time, before the sport was “mature” (ie, dead).
This is were we are at with general aviation today. Let’s avoid this fate for skydiving.

Guillaume


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Jun 9, 2012, 7:15 AM
Post #17 of 276 (4875 views)
Shortcut
Re: [black_rig] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have seen overregulation taking over many activities (scuba diving, general aviation). Each time regulation is promoted by people who hope to grandfather themselves in as instructor, to make more money by forcing mandatory training to everybody else. The argument are always the same: safety, safety, people will die without the mandatory training.
Eventually the training tax is imposed on everybody. As it increases the cost and hassle it decreases the number of participants and kills the sport. But the percentage of accident is unchanged (because the activity is inherently risky and saying all risk is related to improper training is a lie). People start older as they need more money. After running the cost of formation so high, instructors eventually run out of students, and have to promote even more regulation to maintain their income. The number of participants decreases each year and the sport dies. Even instructors and manufacturers eventually cannot live on it. Then they turn back and speak of the good old time, before the sport was “mature” (ie, dead).
This is were we are at with general aviation today. Let’s avoid this fate for skydiving.

Guillaume

++++++++1

A lot of regulation seems to be done due to either :

a) overinflated "instructor" egos
OR
b) as a followup to a terrible accident that happened due to someone being a moron (i.e. would have happened regardless of regulations)

Let's not forget that we are all adults throwing ourselves out of airplanes, let's try to treat each other as such.


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Jun 9, 2012, 8:08 AM
Post #18 of 276 (4866 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wanna learn wingsuiting from a pdf???
Unsure
Good luck reading it in freefall.
Crazy

It doesn't matter where you learn to wingsuit. You can get the absolute best instruction, go through the excersises on the ground over and over until you are raw . BUT once you are in the air the feedback sensation may be overwhelming and nobody regardless of their ability to teach or your previous experience and ability to absorb this will be a factor in predicting the outcome of your first flight.

You can have the very best instructor with you in the air and in the case of instability or spiraling the showcase instructor will be powerless to "TOP DOCK" and fix your situation. YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN IN WINGSUITS.

So yes a PDF with simple verbal description and graphics would be acceptable so would having a good instructor if you want.

Literally ANYBODY could state they have a fool proof way of exiting to avoid tail strikes or skydiver proof way of navigatiing the dropzone pattern and then not give at least a verbal discription of it. My guess is verbal description just wouldn't be that revolutionary.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jun 11, 2012, 7:34 AM
Post #19 of 276 (4776 views)
Shortcut
Re: [likestojump] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have seen overregulation taking over many activities (scuba diving, general aviation). Each time regulation is promoted by people who hope to grandfather themselves in as instructor, to make more money by forcing mandatory training to everybody else. The argument are always the same: safety, safety, people will die without the mandatory training.
Eventually the training tax is imposed on everybody. As it increases the cost and hassle it decreases the number of participants and kills the sport. But the percentage of accident is unchanged (because the activity is inherently risky and saying all risk is related to improper training is a lie). People start older as they need more money. After running the cost of formation so high, instructors eventually run out of students, and have to promote even more regulation to maintain their income. The number of participants decreases each year and the sport dies. Even instructors and manufacturers eventually cannot live on it. Then they turn back and speak of the good old time, before the sport was “mature” (ie, dead).
This is were we are at with general aviation today. Let’s avoid this fate for skydiving.

Guillaume

++++++++1

A lot of regulation seems to be done due to either :

a) overinflated "instructor" egos
OR
b) as a followup to a terrible accident that happened due to someone being a moron (i.e. would have happened regardless of regulations)

Let's not forget that we are all adults throwing ourselves out of airplanes, let's try to treat each other as such.

I am truly surprised that the hundreds of us who started flying wingsuits in the early days (before "instructors" and "coaches") are still alive, given the terrible risks that are now being described as justification for more regulation.


bigbearfng  (D 29442)

Jun 11, 2012, 5:59 PM
Post #20 of 276 (4682 views)
Shortcut
Re: [VectorBoy] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Wanna learn wingsuiting from a pdf???
Unsure
Good luck reading it in freefall.
Crazy

It doesn't matter where you learn to wingsuit. You can get the absolute best instruction, go through the excersises on the ground over and over until you are raw . BUT once you are in the air the feedback sensation may be overwhelming and nobody regardless of their ability to teach or your previous experience and ability to absorb this will be a factor in predicting the outcome of your first flight.

You can have the very best instructor with you in the air and in the case of instability or spiraling the showcase instructor will be powerless to "TOP DOCK" and fix your situation. YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN IN WINGSUITS.

So yes a PDF with simple verbal description and graphics would be acceptable so would having a good instructor if you want.

Literally ANYBODY could state they have a fool proof way of exiting to avoid tail strikes or skydiver proof way of navigatiing the dropzone pattern and then not give at least a verbal discription of it. My guess is verbal description just wouldn't be that revolutionary.

+10 on your post.
Once you're out the door in a WS you are on your own!
The information in the SIM is an excellent thing to have-I make sure anyone that wants to try a WS reads it, then I also go over even more points.
Go do a jump with the person first if you don't know them and make sure their skills/jump numbers are good.
I believe using the SIM and the above is sufficient.
This isn't AFF.
I understand the folk who are pushing safety-but as we've already found out you can't idiot proof everything without draconian measures.
I can't help but remember the past push by some for "official course/instructors for freefly;
even an official course of instruction for automati!
So make a minimum jump number mandatory-you bet.
Require they read the SIM and use an appropriate beginner suit-yes.
If you want, even have the S&TA or DZ manager/DZO give pre-approval.
But mandatory instruction set up similar to AFF-
NO WAY!


GobbleGobble  (D 32887)

Jun 11, 2012, 9:04 PM
Post #21 of 276 (4654 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bigbearfng] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Wanna learn wingsuiting from a pdf???
Unsure
Good luck reading it in freefall.
Crazy

It doesn't matter where you learn to wingsuit. You can get the absolute best instruction, go through the excersises on the ground over and over until you are raw . BUT once you are in the air the feedback sensation may be overwhelming and nobody regardless of their ability to teach or your previous experience and ability to absorb this will be a factor in predicting the outcome of your first flight.

You can have the very best instructor with you in the air and in the case of instability or spiraling the showcase instructor will be powerless to "TOP DOCK" and fix your situation. YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN IN WINGSUITS.

So yes a PDF with simple verbal description and graphics would be acceptable so would having a good instructor if you want.

Literally ANYBODY could state they have a fool proof way of exiting to avoid tail strikes or skydiver proof way of navigatiing the dropzone pattern and then not give at least a verbal discription of it. My guess is verbal description just wouldn't be that revolutionary.

+10 on your post.
Once you're out the door in a WS you are on your own!
The information in the SIM is an excellent thing to have-I make sure anyone that wants to try a WS reads it, then I also go over even more points.
Go do a jump with the person first if you don't know them and make sure their skills/jump numbers are good.
I believe using the SIM and the above is sufficient.
This isn't AFF.
I understand the folk who are pushing safety-but as we've already found out you can't idiot proof everything without draconian measures.
I can't help but remember the past push by some for "official course/instructors for freefly;
even an official course of instruction for automati!
So make a minimum jump number mandatory-you bet.
Require they read the SIM and use an appropriate beginner suit-yes.
If you want, even have the S&TA or DZ manager/DZO give pre-approval.
But mandatory instruction set up similar to AFF-
NO WAY!

You guys understand that only the first jump would be required right? I've heard folks make comments about 10 jumps and freaking out. It's just the first jump (at least in the proposal that was presented at the BOD meeting in San Diego).


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 11, 2012, 9:15 PM
Post #22 of 276 (4648 views)
Shortcut
Re: [5.samadhi] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I've noticed people with ratings tend (not all but some) to think about 'recouping' the costs (time and money) of acquiring the rating so they are more likely to charge for the coach jump they are doing. That is not the spirit of how skydiving should be in my opinion.

The spirit of skydiving? What does that have to do with the reality of being professional, organized, consistant, and safe? Jack shit, that's what.

The simple fact is that if you want complete, correct and consistant training in anything, it takes time, effort and organization, and all of those end up costing someone money.

If you're worried about the fact that a frist-flight course would have a cost associated with it, you're way off track. If a jumper is going to gripe about a one-time cost of $50 or $75 to get a trained professional to spend the better part of a day both training and then jumping with them, then that jumper is in the wrong sport.

Ever heard the saying, 'Anything worth doing is worht doing right'? In this case, the right way to start wingsuiting to take part in an organized and sanctioned firtst flight course. A tremendous amount of knowledge has been gained over the past 10 years in the area of wingsuiting, and to risk missing out on part (or all) of that over a couple bucks is absurd.

Having been an recent outside observer to a first flight course conducted by a manufacturer rated instructor, I can tell you that it was well run and took some jumpers I would have never pictured in a wingsuit, and had them all completing a safe and enjoyable first flight by the end of the day.

They recieved first-rate, professional instruction, and they paid a fair price for that. If I want my car fixed, my hair cut, or my taxes done, I look for a qualifeid professional who will do a first rate job, and for that I gladly pay them a fair price for their service, why should this be any different (with the obvious exception that your life is on the line if you don a wingsuit without proper training)?


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Jun 11, 2012, 9:16 PM
Post #23 of 276 (4646 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GobbleGobble] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

You are new here aren't you.


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Jun 11, 2012, 9:50 PM
Post #24 of 276 (4634 views)
Shortcut
Re: [davelepka] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

 Dave most of us don't have an issue with a paid instructor factory or otherwise. There are plenty full time wingsuit instructors that I ( we all should ) support. They provide quality training no doubt in my mind.

My only issue is that there are more than plenty more than capable wingsuit mentors that have been doing a good job out there ( charging or not i could not tell you ) getting thrown under the bus as bad for business with no proof.

As far as I know there is only one fatality on a wingsuit first flight. No instructor just plain solo.

Most of the hype against bad instruction are complaints about factory guys ( who probably charge anyway)

All of the big suits to soon for the jumpers experience level has been used as a reason for better instruction. Guess what The instructor is for the first flight on a training applicable suit. When said jumper decides to super size ( Down size canopy equivalent) into a big suit the instructor ( no matter how articulate or USPAified is out of the equation. And this data is being used as justification for more better instruction at the first flight level. In the case of an actual incedent That first flight happened a long time ago.

It is like blaming your AFF instructor for taking you from a PD 210 to a spectre 190 during your AFF progression as the reason why you ate dirt on a x-fire 120 at 143 jumps.

Canopy progression past AFF is largely past the oversite of our AFF instructors. Yet it is this very theorium that is being used to bombard our USPA with reasons which they must adopt some kind of program akin to a first level AFF instruction for wingsuits.

It just does not pass the reasonableness test.


(This post was edited by VectorBoy on Jun 11, 2012, 9:53 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 11, 2012, 10:03 PM
Post #25 of 276 (4628 views)
Shortcut
Re: [VectorBoy] Wingsuit Instructor/Coach Rating Input Needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There are plenty full time wingsuit instructors that I ( we all should ) support. They provide quality training no doubt in my mind.

Plenty based on what standard? The jumpers who took the course at my DZ were jumpers who I never heard mention wingsuiting until the course became available. Not a single one of them would have ever bought a suit, or traveled anywhere to take a class.

So how many trained, qualifed instructors is enough? How many prospective students are out there who would make a first flight if the opportunity came to them, or was available at any time at their home DZ? I know of at least one interested jumper who had to take a pass on the course at my DZ due to previous (non-jumping) plans the weekend of the course. I doubt this jumper is going to travel somewhere to get the first flight in, but if we had a full time instructor at the DZ, I'm sure he would have already made a flight. Even if there was one nearby who could come up a couple times per season for a weekend, again, that would open the door to wingsuiting for far more people.

Like it or not, this could be a big step toward advancing wingsuiting. Increased exposure, and the 'legitimacy' of the USPA backing the instructors and first flight courses will only serve to increase the number of jumpers who are going to give it shot.

I learned to wingsuit on one of the first Birdman suits to come into the US, and my 'training' involved watching a very brief video tape. Due to this, the DZO (who owned the suit) had a very short list of who was allowed to jump the suit.

Make the training formal, standardized, and widely available, and everyone involved will benefit. More first flights will be made, they'll be safer, and more likely to hook the jumpers into buying suits and becoming 'wingsuiters'.


First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 12 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving Disciplines : Wing Suit Flying

 


Search for (options)