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Filming 4 way Camera suit questions

 


degeneration  (C 106811)

May 14, 2012, 4:39 AM
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Filming 4 way Camera suit questions Can't Post

What is the best type of camera suit to get for filming 4 way.

I'm quite light, and in my 4 way team I wear about 12-16lbs of extra weight to keep up with my team.

Next season it is likely I'll be filming rather than being in the 4way.

So as far as suits go:
1) 1 piece or 2 piece?
2) wing size - small, medium or large?
3) Suit material - same as my FS suit, or more FF material?
4) Booties or not?

My current preferences and thinking have made me want:
2 piece, large wings, material similar to my FS suit (fast fall) and booties, however reading and looking around has puts some doubts on those choices.

2 piece would be more comfy for just removing the top as and when I need, so I would definitely prefer this.

All 2 piece suits I've seen are heavier cotton material rather than the more slick FS suit material. Figure this would make my fall rate slower, and with my head pointing more downwards rather than arching, that'll also slow my fall rate. So maybe not a great idea for me since I'm light.

Large wings were because I figured, should I need to use wings to catch more air, if they are larger that would be better to help stop crashing through the formation!

I had wanted booties as I'm used to them, but am not sure if they are really needed.

So, opinions and ideas please.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

May 14, 2012, 11:27 AM
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Re: [degeneration] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

I started doing video a couple years ago, but I'd recommend you ask in the camera flyer forum, not here. For what it's worth:

My wife makes suits, so I was lucky. I went with a camera jacket rather than a whole suit. The wings are large and extend from my wrists to my leg straps (rather than just down to above the laterals). The wings have three layers (center layer is fully zero p material, sandwiched between normal supplex for the design and/or tie dye). The jacket is also supplex (that's typical RW suit nylon, not the slick stuff, the other kind) And I have straps/loops to tension the wing. This all on advice from a professional videographer we trust. It's a gorgeous jacket.

That's a good jacket for me - I'm athletically built, medium sized, not light, but I'll wear weight during 4way about 25% of the time. You can scale off of that if you are a real lightweight.

She just delivered a suit with pretty much the same wing sewn into a full FF suit. seems just as effective - that guy won't have to worry about the jacket riding up under canopy (I'm fixing that on mine with snaps to connect the jacket to the pants and next time a very long and lower extending spandex waist on the jacket.)

I love the jacket for 4-way video (ANY RW really) and tandems. I just wear normal Freefly outfits for Freefly video. If I plan to do RW video, but want to get interesting shots (underneath, glancing paths, level, 3D type) I would wear a loose FF suit with lots of skin drag. LOVE the wings when trying to stay close and above.

I find 4way and FF video to be very easy, and tandems to be much trickier actually. Backflying has been a learning experience with wings.

When wearing the wing jacket - I found that my tighter freefly pants are not enough drive for my legs (epecially for tandem vids) - especially since I'm very used to booties. I have an older pair of freefly pants with a rough surface (like denim) and a MUCH looser fit that does pretty decent. However, I've decided to ask for a pair of Bootie Pants instead - it's a cleaner aerodynamic surface and I'm very comfy with flying with booties - and it'll be easier to sit upright (bootie fly). Plus, it's just fun to say "bootie pants".


that, or I could just practice more and be less sucky at it - always learning about the wings every time I fly them.

Quote:
My current preferences and thinking have made me want:
2 piece, large wings, material similar to my FS suit (fast fall) and booties, however reading and looking around has puts some doubts on those choices.

I like this, but I'd think a bit about a more comfy fit - other people will have other opinions. In the end, you might try to learn best by borrowing outfits and talking to whoever will likely be mentoring you on it.

this would also have a been a cool place to do a mockery of the canopy downsizing threads, and new video newbie advice threads - recommending you start with trailing pull up cords from your elbows and taking the Brian Germain camera wing flying class and then recommending a 20 step progression to upsizing suit wings, flying near a 4-way and just making camera clicking sounds before even putting on a camera, etc etc etc but someone else will do that....


(This post was edited by rehmwa on May 14, 2012, 11:40 AM)


dragon2  (D 101989)

May 14, 2012, 12:16 PM
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Re: [degeneration] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Tony Suit can make you a 1 or 2piece suit with big wings and a smooth jacket front (which is what I have). You can select which fabric you want for different parts of the suit.

If you're a belly flyer, def get booties. You'll want them for the exit. For a freeflyer, freefly pants with lots of drag (not the modern freefly/tunnel suit type pants) might do as well (again, this is what I have).

You may end up having to wear some lead plus the big wings to fly comfortably. I like that much better than smaller wings.

OTOH one of our camera flyers can NOT deal with big wings at all so he switched to the small wings (which I personally do not find very useful at all). YMMV. Try and borrow some different camerasuits to see if you can deal with big wings.


Premier quade  (D 22635)
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May 14, 2012, 12:30 PM
Post #4 of 24 (2303 views)
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Re: [degeneration] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

You're lucky in that you're light. It gives you a LOT of options.

If you're just starting out, a 2 piece suit may be the way to go since that will give you a bunch of really fun options in terms of mixing and matching and it's also pretty damn good for when you're helping out at the school. Eventually though, if you're into serious 4-way you will probably want to end up with a 1 piece with booties.

Wing "sizes" are ambiguous and no manufacturer has ever defined them well enough for a person to make an informed decision just by looking at their web site. If you're light, a small wing may be fine, but my suggestion would be to get the largest one available. There's no law that says you have to have it fully extended, but when you want to slow down, you'll want it NOW and the larger the wing is, the more stopping power you'll have available. It can mean the difference between crashing into the team or being able to back off. Trust me, you want effective braking power at that moment.

Booties are likewise important for those times you've left the airplane a split second too soon and need to track back up to your slot. You can get away with not having them if you're just doing casual team flying, but like I said, the more serious you get about it, the more important they'll be.


(This post was edited by quade on May 14, 2012, 3:07 PM)


freefallcrab  (D 100760)

May 15, 2012, 1:40 AM
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Re: [quade] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with Quade, big wings would be my recommendation too. Thats the advice I was given when I started out doing camera and I am glad I took it. You will not need them all the time, you may not even need them some of the time, but when you do you REALLY do. When the exit goes to rats and your air is taken away from you you might just need the extra wing area to avoid hitting the team (just before your instancts bring your arms in when you are about to hit someone!). I am about to replace my camera suit and although I havent decided which company to approach, whatever I buy will be the option with the biggest wings. I didnt get booties first time round but the extra drive back up the hill could be useful - again if an exit goes funky you need instant max performance to get over the team to avoid a camera bust.


degeneration  (C 106811)

May 15, 2012, 1:42 AM
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Re: [quade] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Cheers for the advice.

Based on opinions here and from a conversation with one our team's previous camera fliers, some decisions have been made:

I will get booties and the largest wings available.

Just material and 1 or 2 piece to decide on now.

As I'm in the UK, I would prefer to get a Symbiosis suit due to the relative ease should it not fit well and the lack of import tax with them being in the UK, so have emailed them about the options I may want.

Will see how it goes, but any other opinions or advice would be welcomed.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

May 15, 2012, 8:07 AM
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Re: [degeneration] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Cheers for the advice.

Based on opinions here

it was amazingly consistent this time, wasn't it?


dragon2  (D 101989)

May 15, 2012, 8:55 AM
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Re: [rehmwa] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Cheers for the advice.

Based on opinions here

it was amazingly consistent this time, wasn't it?

Well, duh, of course.

It wasn't like he was asking what kind of wingsuit to get Devil


rehmwa  (D 12816)

May 15, 2012, 9:17 AM
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Re: [dragon2] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Cheers for the advice.

Based on opinions here

it was amazingly consistent this time, wasn't it?

Well, duh, of course.

It wasn't like he was asking what kind of wingsuit to get Devil

I've been finding cameramen to be a very argumentative and diverse crew concerning suit design.

It's one reason my wife avoided the product for years. Too much conflicting "advice" on how exactly to build one. LaughLaugh


but acknowledge this is pretty general stuff
1 - big wings
2 - sure, booties are nice
3 - borrow a few to try out
4 - you can ask for certain fabrics

it's not like he asked for the wing shape, or where to attach the bottom of the wings, what's good sized blow hole, or if buckles vs quick release hardware is better, etc etc etc SlySlyLaugh

edit: I've learned a lot from you guys just lurking in this forum - thanks always


(This post was edited by rehmwa on May 15, 2012, 9:18 AM)


degeneration  (C 106811)

May 15, 2012, 9:21 AM
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Re: [rehmwa] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

So, few more questions:

What wing shape is best?
Where is best to attach the bottom of the wings?
Buckles or quick release hardware?

Tongue


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
May 15, 2012, 9:52 AM
Post #11 of 24 (2133 views)
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Re: [degeneration] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

>Where is best to attach the bottom of the wings?

Safest is to the suit above the hip junction. Two other options are to the legstrap hardware or to the suit below the legstraps. Both give you bigger wings but both also create a hole that a cleverly thrown PC can go through.

>Buckles or quick release hardware?

Quick release shackles are a little more convenient and longer lasting, but the split metal rings they come with are slightly more snaggy.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

May 15, 2012, 11:22 AM
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Re: [billvon] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Quick release shackles are a little more convenient and longer lasting, but the split metal rings they come with are slightly more snaggy.

Bottom of my wing has an extension that wraps tight around the leg strap above the friction buckles. We really tried to minimize the blow hole as you note.

I have the brass releases - same as what you have on your RSL.


mircan  (D 32291)

May 17, 2012, 7:45 AM
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Re: [rehmwa] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Bottom of my wing has an extension that wraps tight around the leg strap above the friction buckles. We really tried to minimize the blow hole as you note

About those blow holes...
Last weekend I almost ended up cutting away perfectly good canopy, by snagging cutaway handle with inside of the wing. Wings are attached by quick release snaps to inside of legstraps.
The wing jacket in pictures, I have it about season and a half and this problem never appeared until now. Belly-fly no problem. But, when I fly longer on my back it seems that in some body positions, inside seam of the wing can catch upper part of the cutaway handle. When I switch back to belly it peels of handle from it`s place.
Talk about surprise on opening Crazy
Attachments: pic1.jpg (73.3 KB)
  pic2.jpg (65.6 KB)


champu  (D 28302)

May 18, 2012, 8:07 PM
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Re: [rehmwa] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>Quick release shackles are a little more convenient and longer lasting, but the split metal rings they come with are slightly more snaggy.

Bottom of my wing has an extension that wraps tight around the leg strap above the friction buckles. We really tried to minimize the blow hole as you note.

I have the brass releases - same as what you have on your RSL.

I use the bronze fixed-bail snap shackles as well, but I attach them using an old pair of PdF soft links routed through the type-8 / type-12 above the friction adapter (see attached.)

Keeps the wings nice and snug, no sewing, and it's easily removable.
Attachments: soft_link_wing_anchor 1.jpg (92.8 KB)
  soft_link_wing_anchor 2.jpg (87.8 KB)
  soft_link_wing_anchor 3.jpg (74.6 KB)


mx19  (D License)

May 19, 2012, 1:36 AM
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Re: [champu] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

just a quick question, i dont use wings myself but do the attachement points shake around a bit? could that not cause unnecessary wear on the webbing?


dragon2  (D 101989)

May 19, 2012, 4:36 AM
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Re: [mx19] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
just a quick question, i dont use wings myself but do the attachement points shake around a bit? could that not cause unnecessary wear on the webbing?

The wear on my rig is mostly on the laterals. I have 2 rigs that vary a lot in dimensions, therefore the suit only fits one really well, the other rig gets friction damage a bit.


champu  (D 28302)

May 19, 2012, 1:20 PM
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Re: [mx19] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
just a quick question, i dont use wings myself but do the attachement points shake around a bit? could that not cause unnecessary wear on the webbing?

I've used soft links like this for quite a while (several hundred jumps) and haven't noticed any unusual wear on the webbing. The movement is largely confined to the shackle/ring interface.


degeneration  (C 106811)

May 19, 2012, 3:41 PM
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Re: [billvon] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

So, I've emailed Symbiosis Suits about their camera suit options, and basically all the possible different things that I've mentioned to them, they've said they can do for me if I want.

So it seems I can more or less get whatever I want done with the suit.

So, I'm thinking of getting:

1) a 2 piece suit
2) slick nylon front on the jacket and top of the bootie bottoms, so it is fast fall like my FS suit
3) largest wings available

The only thing I'm undecided on is: the forearm sleeves of the jacket.

In a 1 piece suit, they can be spandex stretch material, like my fast fall FS suit, but this was not an option for the jacket, but I have been told they can do this if I want.

Would I want this? I'm leaning towards yes, as that way it will be more like what I am used to with my FS suit. But does anyone have any more educated opinions than my guesswork?!


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

May 19, 2012, 9:29 PM
Post #19 of 24 (1789 views)
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Re: [degeneration] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Keep in mind that the wings do tend to pound pretty hard on the sleeves, and spandex will likely wear out. Neither of my camera jackets are spandex anywhere but the cuffs, and both sets have fairly worn cuffs,


pope  (D 19947)

May 23, 2012, 9:09 PM
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Re: [mircan] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Bottom of my wing has an extension that wraps tight around the leg strap above the friction buckles. We really tried to minimize the blow hole as you note

About those blow holes...
Last weekend I almost ended up cutting away perfectly good canopy, by snagging cutaway handle with inside of the wing. Wings are attached by quick release snaps to inside of legstraps.
The wing jacket in pictures, I have it about season and a half and this problem never appeared until now. Belly-fly no problem. But, when I fly longer on my back it seems that in some body positions, inside seam of the wing can catch upper part of the cutaway handle. When I switch back to belly it peels of handle from it`s place.
Talk about surprise on opening Crazy

Read: http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4063401#4063401. I think that is similar to what happened to me here...


mircan  (D 32291)

May 24, 2012, 4:02 AM
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Re: [pope] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, that is very similar to your post, but it was cutaway handle (my reserve is metal D).
I had two "incidents" like this and on both of those jumps I was flying longer on my back before deployment, pitching PC not long after rolling over.
Second time the yellow cutaway cable was extracted about 3 inches...
After that I started doing quick visual handle check after I roll over Crazy


speedy

May 24, 2012, 5:53 AM
Post #22 of 24 (1619 views)
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Re: [degeneration] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, get big wings, when you need them you'll want them to be bigger!

But, if you have not jumped with big wings before ask someone with experience on them to give you a few tips on how they affect flying and what to do at pull time. You don't want to flip on your back at the same moment you deploy Tongue


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 24, 2012, 8:47 AM
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Re: [speedy] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
ask someone with experience on them to give you a few tips on how they affect flying and what to do at pull time. You don't want to flip on your back at the same moment you deploy

Right. It's a good idea to make several 'practice' jumps with a new camera suit, all without any cameras, and the first 1 or 2 without any other jumpers. Start with a solo or two, and focus on practice touches and the pull squence in general, then do a couple flying realtive to another jumper who is only there to be your 'target', so you can get the feel of the suit and what it can do, all without the pressure (or risk) of cameras, and with a willing subject who is paying attention to you as you learn (it doesn't hurt for them to have a camera on, just not a camera suit, so you can learn to fly your suit relative to others with no suit).


degeneration  (C 106811)

May 24, 2012, 12:29 PM
Post #24 of 24 (1575 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Filming 4 way Camera suit questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice ideas. Will definitely do this as and when I get the suit.

I think the rather badly fitting 3/4/5th hand suit that I've got just now has quite big wings, and I got a brief from a current and experienced camera flyer on how to deploy, emergency drills etc. With a better fitting suit I imagine there will be some difference to how it flies, so will make sure I go over each of these again when I fly it.



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