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1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier?

 

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packerboy  (C 34282)

May 4, 2012, 1:55 PM
Post #126 of 171 (1097 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's ask someone with knowledge of gas consumption in a plane and rigging knowledge.

Most of what I can see is that DZ's add the "tax" something like this..

@210 you start paying the tax ($20 extra) @ 230 you can't jump. Or something like that.

If max weight of the reserve is 500lbs, then that 20lb window is about 4% the amount of total weight on the system (at max loading)

Skydive Dallas charges $400 for a premium tandem package.

$20 is 5% of $400

Obviously the price range of tandems at different dropzones is different and the weight of the TI is variable. There are lots of variables. So much in fact that I don't know why I even started with numbers.

Start again.

Is the $20 extra that the student pays enough, not enough, or more than enough to pay for the added operational cost?Or such a pittance that it is completely arbitrary when it comes to the extra gas, wear and tear on gear, and extra wages for the TI?

For arguments sake, I'll say that the business owners value the TI that does the extra and compensates.

What percentage of students fall into the category of paying this tax? Even if it is 10%, that means 9/10 tandem passengers don't fall into that category, and slightly less than 90% of the total weight you are carrying is not paying the extra little bit of revenue.

Let's say a DZ brings in a million bucks in revenue. How much of that revenue is from the tax? How much more does it cost the DZ to carry 5lbs here and 10lbs there?

I'm willing to bet.. and I could be way off, that the majority of the revenue from this tax goes back into the pockets of the TI's, and the amount that the DZ receives is really kind of arbitrary when it comes to operating costs. Probably in the micro percentages.

That being said, if you don't have TI's that are willing to take these heavy people (it should ALWAYS be the TI's decision) you are out the $400, or $300 or whatever you are charging.

When a dz does a tandem, I bet that the profit margin is a fair bit better than $20. So if you don't charge the student and still pay the TI $10, you aren't losing money per se, just making a slimmer margin. So the dz takes a small hit while the TI gets compensated for bringing in that extra $400 in revenue.

Is it REALLY necessary for the dz to charge the student in order to be able to compensate the TI? In the grand scheme of things does it make THAT much of a difference. I'm going to guess that it is WAY less than 1 in 10 that fall into this category.

Sorry if I'm all over the map on this, I'm just curious about how necessary it really is.... can someone in the know please oblige in a rational manner? I know it isn't the original topic in the thread, but can we put all the argument crap aside and learn something interesting here? I don't even know how much extra the TI's get, but I'm thinking its $5 or $10 generally..

I know there are plenty people around here that love to crunch numbers and probably has before and knows generally what the specifics are.. especially a DZO that has either decided for or against charging the "tax".

Don't worry. If you know because you do charge it, I'm not going to go all nutty and call you a racist or anything...


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 4, 2012, 1:57 PM
Post #127 of 171 (1097 views)
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Re: [pchapman] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Why do you always make reference and mention to bowling?

FYI:
It's a standard skydiving expression, looking down on non-skydivers. If skydivers feel someone is unsuited to our sport, we joke that they should be told to TUB - take up bowling. That's nothing against bowling, just that bowling is safer. Bowlers don't end up as limp, crunchy bags of meat and bone fragments if they are stupid or incompetent.

Well we have made up some pretty silly and crazy bowling type games in the hangar on rainy days before that have near those consequences...


bochen280

May 4, 2012, 3:18 PM
Post #128 of 171 (1078 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

The standard price for a tandem jump at one of the DZ near me is about $230. At SDD they charge additional $20 for anyone over 200lbs and max out with a hard limit at 210lbs for tandem.

So you are correct. Not only is the extra fee less than 10% of the standard price, it also applies to only an extremely narrow segment of the population (those between 200 and 210 pounds) I don't see this being a substantial "money maker" for the DZ or the TI/TM. For one, not enough tandem pax would fall into that slim category, and secondly the extra fee is only marginally higher than the standard cost, and like you said, less than 5% more than the VIP tandem package... so it is minimal impact on the bottom line...

It is definitely less than weight proportional. A 90 lbs girl gets charged $230, if it was scaled then a 180lbs dude would pay double that at $460... but instead even a 209lbs guy would "only" pay $20 more at $250.

This makes me believe the primary purpose of the "tax" is NOT to deter heavy people from skydiving, otherwise the tax margin would be MUCH higher. Nor is it a marketing ploy to "make an extra quick buck" by "discriminating against the heavy" and using weight as an excuse to find any reason to charge more and prey on the price inelastic nature of the demand for tandem. (again, if that was the case, they'd charge a lot more for the fat tax)

So it seems like all else being equal, the DZ would rather have the "fat" dudes business than as opposed to not have it at all.... Would the extra $20 cover for the extra 10lbs of weight? (actually the average weight difference would only be five or so pounds in this case) Sure... but it is not a perfect gradient and not to scale... I think there is more to it than that. There is a much bigger difference (weight, fuel, fatigue, financial, etc) between a 99lbs girl and a 199lbs dude, even though both fall into the same price category, than vs compared to a 209lbs being charged merely $20 more as opposed to a 199lbs guy. Though perhaps the "last ten pounds" towards the max ceiling possess more of a risk and danger than the "first 100 pounds"...

If this was supposed to be a way to recuperate the extra costs of fuel, wear and tear, TI/TM fatigue for the DZ, I don't even think it does it fully. Almost seems like a pittance.

Probably as you suggested it seems more like a "tip" and a "little extra something" to motivate the TI/TM to take on a heavier person, otherwise the DZ might lose that pax business entirely. If anything, it now seems like it is the tandem instructors themselves (and not the pax, not the DZ) who are given the shorter end of the stick in this situation...

In any case I don't think it is unreasonable. In fact it seems more than fair. They should probably start charging more at 180lbs and make it progressive... each extra pound after that means paying an extra dollar (or two) until hitting the 210lbs maximum... especially for states that Texas full of heavy people.


(This post was edited by bochen280 on May 4, 2012, 3:32 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 4, 2012, 3:23 PM
Post #129 of 171 (1075 views)
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Re: [peregrinerose] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
To me, some tandem students would be less work than average, some more work than average, so the fee should represent the average knowing that it all works out in the end.

That would be great if price wasn't such a concern to DZs. If you want to the least amount of money the DZ, TI, pilot or packer is willing to take for a tandem, just call the office and ask the regular price of a tandem and that will be it. What they charge is the lowest everyone is willing to work for, and then a sur-charge builds off of that.

For to some sort of 'average' deal, with higher and lower prices for larger or smaller people, you would need to raise the everyday rate for 'average' people so you had room to discount the light-weights, and that's just not going to happen.

Unlike AFF or almost any other personal service provided, taking a tandem involves literally physically moving a person around. Be it in the plane, on the step, or the increased toggle pressure under canopy, more weight equals more work, and the TI should be compensated.


bochen280

May 4, 2012, 3:42 PM
Post #130 of 171 (1070 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

When a dz does a tandem, I bet that the profit margin is a fair bit better than $20. So if you don't charge the student and still pay the TI $10, you aren't losing money per se, just making a slimmer margin. So the dz takes a small hit while the TI gets compensated for bringing in that extra $400 in revenue.

Is it REALLY necessary for the dz to charge the student in order to be able to compensate the TI? In the grand scheme of things does it make THAT much of a difference. I'm going to guess that it is WAY less than 1 in 10 that fall into this category.
.

Perhaps the extra "fat tax" is not about the DZ's bottom line (at least not in any direct way)... perhaps the extra pittance is merely a "tip", a token symbolic gesture the DZ makes to the TI/TM to show appreciation of them taking on the heavier people? And like all emotional gestures, to make it count this has to be publicized and not a behind the doors allocation. This is perhaps the real reason it is not "priced in" by a flat rate. By charging heavy people more and doing it directly and in an open manner, it leaves less room for TI/TM to say "no" and emotionally pressures them into saying "YES". It gives the heavy customer more "power" because now they can say they "paid" for it. Basically, the heavy dude now can (indirectly) insinuate that the TI/TM is a "wuss" if they rejected him/her due to weight issues or concerns when they were under the hard limit. Even though the extra fee is not equitable to the extra risk. After running some simplistic numbers it now seems more like an emotional play on the TI/TM than a full and straightforward "financial" compensation of any proportional or equitable means. This tax is probably less about the DZ trying to recuperate lost margins from heavy people than appeasing and making an emotional appeal backed by a token symbolic financial gesture to the TI/TM to take them on at all, otherwise like you said the DZ is out the $300 completely. Perhaps the heavier people should be THANKING the DZ for this physiologically manipulative (just my theory) tax that compels the TI/TM to take on heavy people that they otherwise would turn down?


(This post was edited by bochen280 on May 4, 2012, 4:12 PM)


toolbox  (D 18778)

May 4, 2012, 3:44 PM
Post #131 of 171 (1069 views)
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Re: [billvon] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Actually I think 90% of the people out there would make it through the day without an injury.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha........ha ha ha,you are kidding right?

>....and either have their parachute pulled for them or have their AAD fire.

If they just came out and winged it without instruction,who would pull their chute for them if there were no instructors?
Even if they had the AAD get the reserve out,they still have to land the damn thing.
Aren't most injuries and fatalities occurring under fully functional chutes?
Just cause the chute opens doesn't mean you are out of the woods.
They could do a full flare at 35ft,go down wind into a parked truck without flaring while landing out ect,ect,ect....
But hey,I guess they could still do that even with good instruction,since students have a mind of there own.


(This post was edited by toolbox on May 4, 2012, 3:46 PM)


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 4, 2012, 3:47 PM
Post #132 of 171 (1065 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
To me, some tandem students would be less work than average, some more work than average, so the fee should represent the average knowing that it all works out in the end.

That would be great if price wasn't such a concern to DZs. If you want to the least amount of money the DZ, TI, pilot or packer is willing to take for a tandem, just call the office and ask the regular price of a tandem and that will be it. What they charge is the lowest everyone is willing to work for, and then a sur-charge builds off of that.

For to some sort of 'average' deal, with higher and lower prices for larger or smaller people, you would need to raise the everyday rate for 'average' people so you had room to discount the light-weights, and that's just not going to happen.

Unlike AFF or almost any other personal service provided, taking a tandem involves literally physically moving a person around. Be it in the plane, on the step, or the increased toggle pressure under canopy, more weight equals more work, and the TI should be compensated.

As should anyone who works hard at their job. But if I get a raise or promotion because I work my ass off and get there. it is not a selective group of my customers that is chosen to pay for that raise, it comes from the operating costs of the business. A lot of my customers are way harder to deal with than others. That's just human nature. Most of why they are harder to deal with in my industry is just simply because they are pricks. Much better reason to charge them more than others than being big. I don't disagree with tandem instructors being compensated for working harder. I'm pretty sure that I have never said that. I would have a problem if someone got hired at a dropzone that does not compensate extra and then bitches about it afterwards.

Would it not be more beneficial to the dz to say charge $1 more to every customer to cover the added costs of taking the big ones (costs including, but not limited to the extra bit of pay to the TI)? I'm sure this would make even more money and would eliminate the stigma of singling out people and possibly losing a customer or two that may be offended. Just a thought...


bochen280

May 4, 2012, 3:48 PM
Post #133 of 171 (1065 views)
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Re: [toolbox] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Actually I think 90% of the people out there would make it through the day without an injury.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha........ha ha ha,you are kidding right?

>....and either have their parachute pulled for them or have their AAD fire.

If they just came out and winged it without instruction,who would pull their chute for them if there were no instructors?
Even if they had the AAD get the reserve out,they still have to land the damn thing.
Aren't most injuries and fatalities occurring under fully functional chutes?
Just cause the chute opens doesn't mean you are out of the woods.
They could do a full flare at 35ft,go down wind into a parked truck without flaring while landing out ect,ect,ect...LaughLaughLaughLaugh.
But hey,I guess they could still do that even with good instruction,since students have a mind of there own.

Not to get off subject but have you seen this tech article? http://techcrunch.com/2012/04/12/course-hero/

YouTube/Vimeo/etc is your friend. If I watch enough of the (sometimes) very good quality videos of all stages of skydiving I can get quite proficient at it just through the mirror neurons that vicariously empathetically learn through simulated stimulation. Virtual muscle memory.

The age of "holier than thou" (and I'm directing this more at the so called higher education University diploma mills than the skydiving accreditation community) is about to come to an end. Technology flattens the value of a formal education and makes knowledge available to all.


(This post was edited by bochen280 on May 4, 2012, 3:49 PM)


ghost47  (A License)

May 4, 2012, 5:42 PM
Post #134 of 171 (1024 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
YouTube/Vimeo/etc is your friend. If I watch enough of the (sometimes) very good quality videos of all stages of skydiving I can get quite proficient at it just through the mirror neurons that vicariously empathetically learn through simulated stimulation. Virtual muscle memory.
I won't say it's impossible that you could learn to skydive well by watching Youtube, but I will say that the first time one jumps solo out of an airplane can very disorienting, and very different from what one expects.

To use myself as an example, in 2004, I did a tandem. I was perfectly composed the entire time, had almost no fear, and actually found the experience kind of boring.

Fast forward to 2008 when I made my first AFF jump. I was fine in the plane. Once I got out -- the scaredest I have ever been in my life. (And this was unexpected to me -- I had thought that, because I had done a tandem previously, freefall would not be so disorienting.) Had I not drilled and drilled and drilled the dive flow, I'm sure I would not have remembered what to do. As it is, I'm not sure if I was consciously thinking about stuff, or if I was just going through the routine that my instructors had drilled into me.

And this is assuming that you are able to, as you say, "watch enough of the (sometimes) very good quality videos of all stages of skydiving." Without an instructor, how will you know you've seen all stages? Will you know what to do if you have line twists, a brake-fire, a horseshoe, a pilot chute in tow, a pilot chute hesitation, or even just a slider up? How do you know how to land, where the windsocks are, how not to mess up the pattern so as not to endanger other jumpers? What do you do if your canopy is just turning slightly to the left with both toggles up, but you can correct it with a little right toggle?

When you heal, I hope you'll consider doing an AFF class. If, after that first class and jump, you still feel like you could have done all that by watching Youtube and Vimeo, I will be very surprised.


toolbox  (D 18778)

May 4, 2012, 5:43 PM
Post #135 of 171 (1023 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you are going to get into skydiving,you need to know and accept that it is inherently very dangerous.
Skydiving really blows up your skirt and can be very rewarding but,even with the best gear and training,you are still rolling the dice.
I do not know what happened on your tandem, since I was not there and, all this talk of it is just talk.
I do know for certain though,that you can do everything right and still get maimed or killed for an infinite number of reasons.
You could have a double mal,you could get slammed into the ground by some funky air,or have your canopy collapse at 100ft,ect,ect.....
The point I am trying to make is, do not approach this sport with a cavalier attitude. Get the proper training from the folks with the experience(properly rated instructors).
This sport is a lot of fun but, do not kid yourself,it will kill you faster than you will no your dead if you do not respect it.
So heal up fast and strong,then find a nice USPA DZ in your area that you get good vibes from and listen to your instructors,and do not come to this sight as a substitute for instruction.
Have fun!


Austintxflight

May 4, 2012, 6:12 PM
Post #136 of 171 (1013 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>Actually I think 90% of the people out there would make it through the day without an injury.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha........ha ha ha,you are kidding right?

>....and either have their parachute pulled for them or have their AAD fire.

If they just came out and winged it without instruction,who would pull their chute for them if there were no instructors?
Even if they had the AAD get the reserve out,they still have to land the damn thing.
Aren't most injuries and fatalities occurring under fully functional chutes?
Just cause the chute opens doesn't mean you are out of the woods.
They could do a full flare at 35ft,go down wind into a parked truck without flaring while landing out ect,ect,ect...LaughLaughLaughLaugh.
But hey,I guess they could still do that even with good instruction,since students have a mind of there own.

Not to get off subject but have you seen this tech article? http://techcrunch.com/2012/04/12/course-hero/

YouTube/Vimeo/etc is your friend. If I watch enough of the (sometimes) very good quality videos of all stages of skydiving I can get quite proficient at it just through the mirror neurons that vicariously empathetically learn through simulated stimulation. Virtual muscle memory.

The age of "holier than thou" (and I'm directing this more at the so called higher education University diploma mills than the skydiving accreditation community) is about to come to an end. Technology flattens the value of a formal education and makes knowledge available to all.


I'm sure its possible to learn simply by watching videos, and it does help. When I was going through AFF I watched just about every video i could find that had AFF in it. But one would have to agree that chances for failure begin to increase with less formal education.

When you are teaching someone in front of you, you can tell if they are getting it or not, you can tell they are paying attention or if they have 5 other tabs open on their browser and watching TV. Also as many people have pointed out, the first time in a new environment can be disorienting and having someone there can help.

I'm sure you were not an expert at the sex by just watching videos online. It took some practical experience as well. Not saying that porn didn't help steepen the learning curve, but you cannot cut out the part of experience solely through learning through observation.

And once again, I'm sure through learning online, one could be decent enough to survive, and make it without injury, but I would hope the goals are higher than simply survival.

And don't even think about the legal issues when someone gets hurt through a internet skydiving school that mails you a rig when you complete the online course that lets you print a certificate and take to your local DZ to allow you to jump.

I do agree, the internet is helping broaden learning, but I'm going to learn alot more about playing the guitar in a lesson than I am just listening to music.


Ron

May 4, 2012, 6:39 PM
Post #137 of 171 (1005 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
my definition of a skygod:

Someone who crams their shit down your throat by simply stating "I have more jumps than you, so therefore you know shit and I know everything" But really does not. And comes off like a complete f'ing asshole while doing it.

You my friend are a skygod. Only problem I know of in skydiving is that there are WAY too many people like you in it.

Definition of a skygod. A Person that does not Have the experience yet claims he is 'smarter' or 'better' and therfore he is the expert without the real credentials to back it up.

That is you.

Quote:
I would gladly match your donation to charity from your fat tax, but that would mean you are still charging it. And that would defeat the whole purpose. I challenge you to get your entire dz and the TI's to make the donation. If you can do that and show me the tax receipt. I will match your portion of it. And that is straight up. I would match the entire thing, but I don't have a whole lot of money to begin with and I can't commit to that because I really have no idea what I would be getting in to.

Ah, so you are unwilling to actually put your money where your mouth is..... Another charictaristic of a skygod.

Quote:
Ron and Diablo... Trying to tell me that my argument is wrong by telling me that they I have no right to an opinion

And that is PURE crap. I never said you were not entitled to have an opinion. I simply said that since you have. I relevant experience then your opinion is not worth as much as someone that has that experience.... Simple logic really.

You are entitled to an opinion, I think your opinion is not based in facts.

Simply put.... You are a guy with a strong opinion and nothing but ego and hot air to back it up. As soon as Someone dares challenge your superiority, you insult them.

The fact I offered you a deal and you negotiated in bad faith and then even backed out says all I need to know about you.


bochen280

May 4, 2012, 7:26 PM
Post #138 of 171 (993 views)
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Re: [Austintxflight] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

And don't even think about the legal issues when someone gets hurt through a internet skydiving school that mails you a rig when you complete the online course that lets you print a certificate and take to your local DZ to allow you to jump.

Well yes, there is ALWAYS that.

There is a lot of mystique surrounding skydiving (I don't mean for the "in" community but speaking in terms of the "general" population) and a lot of it can be disclosed.... and explained away...

I'm not attempting to trivialize the mechanics and dynamics of skydiving (there again is the epistemological dilemma of simply not knowing what one does not know) but to me, imho, skydiving is not exactly rocket science. I'm sure to be good at it the actual activity takes mental skill, coordination, timing, concentration, depth perception, muscle memory, etc and a lot more that can only be honed through real life practice... but the principles themselves are simple, borderline trivial, and not very complex.

Why is there not (maybe there is, but I've looked and found none) 3d/cg animation that shows frame by frame how skydiving really works.... (a sort of "how stuff works" but in immense 3-dimensional detail) ... basically an Avatar like quality rendering of a virtual skydiver from the moment he packs and inspects his chute, to gearing up, to getting on the airplane to riding to altitude, to jumping out, stabilizing, then opening the chute, gliding down to approach, flaring, landing, taking off his equipment... basically showing the ENTIRE schedule of the quintessentially skydiving in all its glory... in 3d, rendered in real-time, to be replayed as often as one would like, from any perspective or angle, in any rendering mode, etc...

An absolute newbie who never heard of skydiving could learn so much from something like that in just a few hours... to get a fundamental conceptual idea of "how" skydiving works, "why" it works and what role and function each part, each equipment and each stage plays in the whole process. Compare that to how it works today. Most DZ in my area don't even offer AFF unless one tandem (SDD does, but not really, they discourage it, and you have to schedule in advance and only one of the days on any given weekend)... I have to drive two hours back and forth (FOUR hours) just to do a tandem and learned almost nothing new from skydiving than I already found out on Youtube.... when had I the correct materials and the right circumstances learn more in four minutes about skydiving than I would spend an entire day at the DZ.

Imagine if there was this transparent rendering of chute opening sequence complete with wind vector forces, instantaneous g and velocity and acc information, etc and newcomers can visualize and actually "see" (or see through) moment by moment everything and finally understand mentally exactly what is going on, why everything is the way it is, and how it works in tandem to accomplish the task of slowing down the fall...

As it is, I understand nothing can substitute actual experience... but it does seems like there COULD be more efficient ways to SUPPLEMENT learning through videos.... videos alone that are not meant to replace real skydiving and of course one would still have to pass tests and get a license to jump... so I don't see any legal reason why there can't be a comprehensive online video tutorial that teaches the mechanics of skydiving... from how to pack a chute, how to clear malfunctions, how to do inspections.... everything that can be learned from "real life" instructor can be shown in HD in the comfort of one's home on video.. I mean it is not like the instructor is telepathic and feeds the students knowledge through physic powers... everything is audio/visual anyway...

In fact I would argue that as supplementary knowledge video instruction could be very effective... not only because of its potential clarity, (with today's HD resolution it is better than being there in person!) but also it has value as reference that can be replayed again and again... Not everyone (especially new people starting out) has the time or luxury of driving to the DZ whenever they feel like it to get an instructor to explain something to them in person....

I'm not suggesting that AFF can be replaced. Just like no matter what we still will always have driving tests to get a drivers license... its not like someday the govt will allow us to hook up a G27 wheel and pedals to a PS3, play the equivalent of Gran Turismo/ iracing and pass a virtual driving test, snap a pic with a webcam and ship us a drivers license...

But good supplementary video instruction through all stages of skydiving can go a long way to bring people up to speed and novices to intermediate or even expert in much shorter time.

I used to play a game called "B.A.S.E. Jumping" on the PC (no longer published?) but it was too simplistic...it never simulated many of the details and functional aspects and procedural aspects of skydiving... Too bad there isn't a game (which also serves as a simulator) out there that accurately simulates from at least a physical and systems standpoint all points of the standard skydiving experience complete wit random failures, errors, malfunctions and giving us the ability to correct for them, etc...

Just like no matter how good graphics cards get and etc no "sex" simulator is going to teach you the "real thing"... because force feedback, body part orientation, balance, coordination and rhyme cannot be taught in a video no matter how many megapixel, polygons, framerates, or whatever the resolution... a lot of the procedure, systems and functional aspects of skydiving and the mechanisms themselves can be encapsulated on video... everything else is merely practice, practice, practice, but the theories, principles and academic knowledge itself can be easily learned by anyone willing to commit themselves to the activity.


(This post was edited by bochen280 on May 4, 2012, 7:47 PM)


steveorino  (D 26782)

May 4, 2012, 8:30 PM
Post #139 of 171 (970 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Being a guy that is the reason I don't want to do tandem in the first place. I wouldn't mind doing it if I was a small petite girl... but seriously tandem is kinda gay for a guy to do...

being a TM I think YOU are far too concerned about being strapped to a guy. that says a lot about YOU. IMHO. TongueWink

In reply to:
and it is not even a real skydiving... I know control is an illusion, but if I'm going to get hurt I want to be responsible for hurting myself... not put my fate in some TM - no matter his level of experience.

Sure, landing by yourself has got to be safer than landing with a dude who has 1000s of landings with multiple wing loading. Crazy It is always entertaining reading stuff here!


bochen280

May 4, 2012, 8:42 PM
Post #140 of 171 (964 views)
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Re: [steveorino] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Being a guy that is the reason I don't want to do tandem in the first place. I wouldn't mind doing it if I was a small petite girl... but seriously tandem is kinda gay for a guy to do...

being a TM I think YOU are far too concerned about being strapped to a guy. that says a lot about YOU. IMHO. TongueWink

In reply to:
and it is not even a real skydiving... I know control is an illusion, but if I'm going to get hurt I want to be responsible for hurting myself... not put my fate in some TM - no matter his level of experience.

Sure, landing by yourself has got to be safer than landing with a dude who has 1000s of landings with multiple wing loading. Crazy It is always entertaining reading stuff here!


Not really. I don't even like the camera man dude getting in my face I definitely don't feel comfortable strapped to another guy. A female TI would be another matter, but even so that would be weird.

Some people have larger personal space bubbles than others.


normiss  (D 28356)

May 4, 2012, 9:13 PM
Post #141 of 171 (945 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Personal space bubble?
I don't think you get on a jump plane with one of those.
Maybe over the desert, but I hope not.


nigel99  (D 1)

May 4, 2012, 9:25 PM
Post #142 of 171 (944 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Being a guy that is the reason I don't want to do tandem in the first place. I wouldn't mind doing it if I was a small petite girl... but seriously tandem is kinda gay for a guy to do...

being a TM I think YOU are far too concerned about being strapped to a guy. that says a lot about YOU. IMHO. TongueWink

In reply to:
and it is not even a real skydiving... I know control is an illusion, but if I'm going to get hurt I want to be responsible for hurting myself... not put my fate in some TM - no matter his level of experience.

Sure, landing by yourself has got to be safer than landing with a dude who has 1000s of landings with multiple wing loading. Crazy It is always entertaining reading stuff here!


Not really. I don't even like the camera man dude getting in my face I definitely don't feel comfortable strapped to another guy. A female TI would be another matter, but even so that would be weird.

Some people have larger personal space bubbles than others.

Skydiving isn't a good place to have a big space bubble. Heck if a female TI knew how you felt, some would even wear a straponLaugh

I'm interested to know what you expect out of jumping? Wait till you are crammed into a small plane doing exit after a couple of nude jumpersShockedAngelic

What many people don't realise and you appear to be one of them, is skydiving is fucking dangerous. This isn't American Airlines where warnings that a bag of peanuts may contain nuts are there to prevent litigation. Without proper mentoring and instruction you could be dead before you even enter the aircraft - literally. The guys that are there to hold your hand are there to try and keep you as safe as possible. Go and hang out at a busy dz for 6 months, you'll see a few broken bodies and maybe learn that this isn't Disneyland.


ghost47  (A License)

May 4, 2012, 9:31 PM
Post #143 of 171 (941 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why is there not (maybe there is, but I've looked and found none) 3d/cg animation that shows frame by frame how skydiving really works.... (a sort of "how stuff works" but in immense 3-dimensional detail) ... basically an Avatar like quality rendering of a virtual skydiver from the moment he packs and inspects his chute, to gearing up, to getting on the airplane to riding to altitude, to jumping out, stabilizing, then opening the chute, gliding down to approach, flaring, landing, taking off his equipment... basically showing the ENTIRE schedule of the quintessentially skydiving in all its glory... in 3d, rendered in real-time, to be replayed as often as one would like, from any perspective or angle, in any rendering mode, etc...
What's the market?

Say you do all of that, and you go to a dropzone. No one is going to let you jump unless you sit through AFF-1 anyway (or whatever student program they use). Why not? A) They have no way of knowing how much you actually absorbed in watching all that, how much you practiced at home, how much you actually understood. They need to have their instructors make a judgment, and they can only do that by observing you in class for a while.

B) Liability. No dropzone is going to risk going out of business to save you the $300 of going through AFF-1.

So what's the incentive for someone to create such an all-encompassing simulation for civilian use?

As technology progresses and virtual-reality simulators get better and cheaper, maybe what you're looking for will eventually be created.

But for now I don't think anyone will spend the money and time it takes to build something that is even close to as effective as AFF-1. And I don't think you'll learn enough from watching Youtube.


BobMoore  (D 13136)

May 4, 2012, 10:24 PM
Post #144 of 171 (924 views)
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Re: [ghost47] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But for now I don't think anyone will spend the money and time it takes to build something that is even close to as effective as AFF-1. And I don't think you'll learn enough from watching Youtube.

He thinks he will, and that's all that is important to him.


toolbox  (D 18778)

May 4, 2012, 10:28 PM
Post #145 of 171 (920 views)
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Re: [steveorino] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm starting to think this guy is an up jumper who is just pranking are asses.
I must say it is getting very entertaining whether it's for real or not.
I'm laughing so hard I think I might be sore in the morning.
Do you think you could use a space bubble for a mini submarine or diving bell or something?


(This post was edited by toolbox on May 4, 2012, 10:32 PM)


Austintxflight

May 5, 2012, 7:30 AM
Post #146 of 171 (870 views)
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Re: [toolbox] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well he goes from saying he wishes he could just be given a video and a packed rig and allowed to figure it out on his own, to hedging and saying well internet learning can supplement.

Still there are no nobel prize winners who went to Devry.

Where the world is today in 2012 face to face instruction still trumps internet learning for a variety of reasons.

Also the whole video game thing, the cost to develop it would be too high, would not justify the possible income.


normiss  (D 28356)

May 5, 2012, 7:41 AM
Post #147 of 171 (867 views)
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Re: [toolbox] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

If this is Funks, this is right up there with his "girl" posts.
SlySlySly


jclalor  (B 33202)

May 5, 2012, 10:17 AM
Post #148 of 171 (846 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't sell yourself short, tandem skydives are serious business, and not everyone has the requisite aptitude needed to excell in this sport.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roXURlkRzhU

Pay close attention to his "impact".


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 5, 2012, 2:05 PM
Post #149 of 171 (829 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

When a dz does a tandem, I bet that the profit margin is a fair bit better than $20. So if you don't charge the student and still pay the TI $10, you aren't losing money per se, just making a slimmer margin. So the dz takes a small hit while the TI gets compensated for bringing in that extra $400 in revenue.

Is it REALLY necessary for the dz to charge the student in order to be able to compensate the TI? In the grand scheme of things does it make THAT much of a difference. I'm going to guess that it is WAY less than 1 in 10 that fall into this category.
.

Perhaps the extra "fat tax" is not about the DZ's bottom line (at least not in any direct way)... perhaps the extra pittance is merely a "tip", a token symbolic gesture the DZ makes to the TI/TM to show appreciation of them taking on the heavier people? And like all emotional gestures, to make it count this has to be publicized and not a behind the doors allocation. This is perhaps the real reason it is not "priced in" by a flat rate. By charging heavy people more and doing it directly and in an open manner, it leaves less room for TI/TM to say "no" and emotionally pressures them into saying "YES". It gives the heavy customer more "power" because now they can say they "paid" for it. Basically, the heavy dude now can (indirectly) insinuate that the TI/TM is a "wuss" if they rejected him/her due to weight issues or concerns when they were under the hard limit. Even though the extra fee is not equitable to the extra risk. After running some simplistic numbers it now seems more like an emotional play on the TI/TM than a full and straightforward "financial" compensation of any proportional or equitable means. This tax is probably less about the DZ trying to recuperate lost margins from heavy people than appeasing and making an emotional appeal backed by a token symbolic financial gesture to the TI/TM to take them on at all, otherwise like you said the DZ is out the $300 completely. Perhaps the heavier people should be THANKING the DZ for this physiologically manipulative (just my theory) tax that compels the TI/TM to take on heavy people that they otherwise would turn down?


If $20 is going to convince a TI to take someone that they would normally turn down for safety reasons, this is NOT the TI that you want to be jumping with IMO.. But my opinion on the matter, how do I put it? "Means shit" I think it was. Only way to know for sure is to ask someone with 5K+ tandem jumps.. :)


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 5, 2012, 4:09 PM
Post #150 of 171 (811 views)
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Re: [Ron] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't reply to much of your last post because I gave you the last word.. but inside I am LMFAO because you simply don't understand how much the experience in the field that you have more of than me (doing tandems) has really no bearing on what my opinion was about (pricing structures). I really don't think many dzo's give a shit what people have to go through to get the job done. What they care about is how much money they can get out of the finished product. It's just business after all. (To most of them anyway).

Like I said.. as far as I'm concerned, your opinion on the matter means exactly shit to me, mostly because you are arguing about something totally different because somehow you felt your awesomeness was being challenged by me saying that doing tandems isn't hard. Which in fact I never said.

But I do have to say this piece, because you did just laid down a personal attack on my character.

In reply to:
Quote:

The fact I offered you a deal and you negotiated in bad faith and then even backed out says all I need to know about you.

You offered me a deal 3 times with having a clue what you were getting in to because you have NO CLUE who you are talking to and you weren't expecting me to actually take it. I didn't "negotiate" anything. You did ALL the negotiating. It was actually only when you found out that my total sum of tandem pack jobs to sport pack jobs was going to be $0 that YOU backed out on the deal that YOU were offering. That was just YOU being stupid. I passed on the deal a couple times, but you kept on shoving it down my throat to prove a point.

I've got a bridge I can sell you...

And you also have said all that I need to know about you. So piss off. Really.. just piss off.

Sorry.. I went and gave you that present... and you took it. And then I went and took it back. I guess I negotiated the last word thing in bad faith. My bad. Wink

Here, now you can have it for real.... go ahead. It's ok. Take it. Here, I'll throw it on the floor in front of you and I won't look. It's ok boy.... *looking away*

pffft


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