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Are Airlocks dead ?

 

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Jonesy920x  (D 13317)

May 3, 2012, 7:27 PM
Post #1 of 41 (2640 views)
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Are Airlocks dead ? Can't Post

I've been using the "search" function and haven't found much about airlocks after 2008. Brian Germain isn't even making them on a regular basis. Are cross brace canopies superior? Are airlocks too expensive to manufacture? Or is it simple economics ...not enough customers to justify production ie; we vote with our dollars. Just thought the engineering was sound (I'm a pilot and tech geek).


(This post was edited by Jonesy920x on May 3, 2012, 7:29 PM)


Premier likestojump  (D License)

May 3, 2012, 7:29 PM
Post #2 of 41 (2616 views)
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Re: [Jonesy920x] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've been using the "search" function and haven't found much about airlocks after 2008. Brian Germain isn't even making them on a regular basis. Are cross brace canopies superior? Are airlocks too expensive to manufacture? Or is it simple economics ...not enough customers to justify production ie; we vote with our dollars.

My guess it's the later - little demand, thus very limited production.

I am also fairly certain that a crossbrace is more expensive to manufacture.
Also, I think comparing a crossbraced to an airlocked canopy is like comparing apples to walnuts. The purposes of those two features are completely different.


dirtbox  (D 31759)

May 3, 2012, 8:24 PM
Post #3 of 41 (2572 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why haven't we seen a crossbraced airlocked canopy? Granted I don't know much about smooping but looking at top end canopies the inlets are very small anyway and it it seems like it would solve the Dubia air-gremlin problem while creating a more rigid wing (which could allow different shapes as well?) I am most likely missing something so I wouldn't mind to be educated Smile


virgin-burner

May 3, 2012, 10:12 PM
Post #4 of 41 (2518 views)
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Re: [dirtbox] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

isnt the top-line germain canopy xbraced and airlocked!?


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

May 3, 2012, 10:43 PM
Post #5 of 41 (2504 views)
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Re: [dirtbox] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why haven't we seen a crossbraced airlocked canopy? Granted I don't know much about smooping but looking at top end canopies the inlets are very small anyway and it it seems like it would solve the Dubia air-gremlin problem while creating a more rigid wing (which could allow different shapes as well?) I am most likely missing something so I wouldn't mind to be educated Smile

Brian Germain got some prototype like that. They were quite complex to make with a really little benefit over the x-braced canopies. Dead end..


stayhigh  (F 111)

May 3, 2012, 10:46 PM
Post #6 of 41 (2499 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

on top of it, opening sucked no???


crotalus01  (B 28932)

May 3, 2012, 10:53 PM
Post #7 of 41 (2495 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a Vengeance and the openings are interesting to say the least. Always soft and always a radical dive to the left or right, depending on which side inflates first...I have been told this is a result of the airlocks, although I really dont have enough experience to say if it is true or not....


Premier likestojump  (D License)

May 3, 2012, 11:13 PM
Post #8 of 41 (2481 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have a Vengeance and the openings are interesting to say the least. Always soft and always a radical dive to the left or right, depending on which side inflates first...I have been told this is a result of the airlocks, although I really dont have enough experience to say if it is true or not....

Airlocks prevent (slow down) the air from escaping out the nose.
Crossports help equalize internal pressure.

Thus the only way your statement makes sense (at least to me) is if your canopy has no crossports OR if it gets an extremely rapid and equally extremely uneven inflation.

personally, I call BS. (I have owned Jedeis and Samurais. I ahve also jumped Vengeances and Lotuses)

Considering that the rumor mill was saying that Vengeance was discontinued due to being extremely elliptical, my best guess is that's the same reason why yours opens the way it does. Oh, and body position, of course ! :)


piisfish

May 3, 2012, 11:37 PM
Post #9 of 41 (2464 views)
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Re: [Jonesy920x] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

airlocks are not completely dead. Wingsuits are full of them Smile


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

May 4, 2012, 12:15 AM
Post #10 of 41 (2456 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
isnt the top-line germain canopy xbraced and airlocked!?

No.


JasonYergin  (C 40641)

May 4, 2012, 2:17 AM
Post #11 of 41 (2417 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
airlocks are not completely dead. Wingsuits are full of them Smile

Ya learn something every day if you read......


Dean358  (D 28881)

May 4, 2012, 6:05 AM
Post #12 of 41 (2344 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

About 1,000 jumps ago I owned a Vengeance 170, wing loaded at 1.17 to 1. The openings were so sporty that I either had to sell it or quit the sport. BTW, I'm sure my body position was far less than ideal at opening, but the same shity body position produced much more stable openings with a Saber-2 170. (Still jumping the Saber-2 170 today.)


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

May 4, 2012, 6:24 AM
Post #13 of 41 (2323 views)
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Re: [Dean358] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
About 1,000 jumps ago I owned a Vengeance 170, wing loaded at 1.17 to 1. The openings were so sporty that I either had to sell it or quit the sport. BTW, I'm sure my body position was far less than ideal at opening, but the same shity body position produced much more stable openings with a Saber-2 170. (Still jumping the Saber-2 170 today.)

Not everyone needs an elliptical canopy.


virgin-burner

May 4, 2012, 9:54 AM
Post #14 of 41 (2215 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
About 1,000 jumps ago I owned a Vengeance 170, wing loaded at 1.17 to 1. The openings were so sporty that I either had to sell it or quit the sport. BTW, I'm sure my body position was far less than ideal at opening, but the same shity body position produced much more stable openings with a Saber-2 170. (Still jumping the Saber-2 170 today.)

Not everyone needs an elliptical canopy.

the sabre 2 is elliptical.. Tongue


Premier likestojump  (D License)

May 4, 2012, 10:38 AM
Post #15 of 41 (2161 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
About 1,000 jumps ago I owned a Vengeance 170, wing loaded at 1.17 to 1. The openings were so sporty that I either had to sell it or quit the sport. BTW, I'm sure my body position was far less than ideal at opening, but the same shity body position produced much more stable openings with a Saber-2 170. (Still jumping the Saber-2 170 today.)

Not everyone needs an elliptical canopy.

the sabre 2 is elliptical.. Tongue

Take a look at what the Sabre2 looks like :
http://www.performancedesigns.com/.../SA_097-170P02LT.pdf

and now look at the Vengeance :
http://www.performancedesigns.com/...ims/VN_089-170LT.pdf

Quite a difference, eh ?
PD calls Sabre2 semi-elliptical, and the Vengeance fully elliptical.


(This post was edited by likestojump on May 4, 2012, 10:58 AM)


monkycndo  (D License)

May 4, 2012, 10:53 AM
Post #16 of 41 (2145 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you meant this for the Vengeance.


Premier likestojump  (D License)

May 4, 2012, 10:59 AM
Post #17 of 41 (2138 views)
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Re: [monkycndo] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think you meant this for the Vengeance.

sure did ! Just edited the post.
Thank you !


dragon2  (D 101989)

May 4, 2012, 11:23 AM
Post #18 of 41 (2124 views)
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Re: [Dean358] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
About 1,000 jumps ago I owned a Vengeance 170, wing loaded at 1.17 to 1. The openings were so sporty that I either had to sell it or quit the sport. BTW, I'm sure my body position was far less than ideal at opening, but the same shity body position produced much more stable openings with a Saber-2 170. (Still jumping the Saber-2 170 today.)

YMMV. I love my vengeance (except in high winds), as do the other jumpers I know that own a vengeance.

I'm not sure what you mean by sporty openings, if your packjob or body position leaves something to be desired then yes an eliptical will act up more. So "shitty bodypositions" are not recommended, no Crazy But even when a toggle fired during linestretch I didn't have to chop my vengeance, you just have to be on the ball. I've done a couple wingsuit jumps with mine even (though not recommended).
I did have to chop my vengeance one time after a ball of crap opening but I knew the canopy needed a reline badly and I had continued jumping it anyway.

All in all, if you're ready for an elliptical, the vengeance isn't a bad idea IMO, too bad they don't make 'em anymore Unsure


Premier Remster  (C License)

May 4, 2012, 3:06 PM
Post #19 of 41 (2038 views)
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Re: [dragon2] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

I really like my Sam.

If the line trim is slightly out, the openings can get funky, and like ANY canopy, it can have a hard opening, but overall, I really like it's flight characteristics. (Sam 136 at about 1.8)


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

May 4, 2012, 3:56 PM
Post #20 of 41 (2004 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have a Vengeance and the openings are interesting to say the least. Always soft and always a radical dive to the left or right, depending on which side inflates first...I have been told this is a result of the airlocks, although I really dont have enough experience to say if it is true or not....

My Samurai opens on heading nearly all the time.

I'd be inclined to blame packing, body position, canopy trim (Spectra brake lines have shrunk too much after just a few hundred jumps) or manufacturing variations (about half a dozen people at my DZ got Spectres with built-in turns which PD fixed) before pointing my finger at the airlocks.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on May 4, 2012, 3:59 PM)


hackish  (No License)

May 4, 2012, 9:41 PM
Post #21 of 41 (1887 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Airlocks prevent (slow down) the air from escaping out the nose.
Crossports help equalize internal pressure.

Thus the only way your statement makes sense (at least to me) is if your canopy has no crossports OR if it gets an extremely rapid and equally extremely uneven inflation.

Think about the size of a nose opening and it's exposure to relative wind versus the size of a cross-port. The nose is going to win every time.

-Michael


crotalus01  (B 28932)

May 4, 2012, 9:55 PM
Post #22 of 41 (1878 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

As stated, thats what I was told....I never claimed it to be God's truth. TongueTongue


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

May 6, 2012, 11:45 AM
Post #23 of 41 (1699 views)
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Re: [Jonesy920x] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

If "Air Locks" worked then ridge wings wouldn't stall.


crotalus01  (B 28932)

May 6, 2012, 1:48 PM
Post #24 of 41 (1661 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was under the impression that a stall had to do with the AOA, not whether the wing was rigid or not Tongue
If airlocks dont work perhaps you could explain to me why my Vengeance always looked like an air mattress laying on the ground after I landed...


(This post was edited by crotalus01 on May 6, 2012, 1:50 PM)


Jonesy920x  (D 13317)

May 6, 2012, 8:47 PM
Post #25 of 41 (1559 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Are Airlocks dead ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If "Air Locks" worked then ridge wings wouldn't stall.
? Any wing will stall when AOA is exceeded. I thought the idea of the "air locks" was to help with canopy collapse in turbulence.


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