Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Downsizng Rules/Regulations

 


michaelqld

May 1, 2012, 7:08 PM
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Downsizng Rules/Regulations Can't Post

I have a presentation to so at a skydivers conference on downsizing. I am interested to hear if any countries out there have rules/regulations in place to control skydivers downsizing progression?

I know the Netherlands has something in place, I have seen it before but I don't have details. If anyone has details please let me know.

Anyone else?

I have read the checklists and guidelines from Bill Von Novak, Brian Germaine etc but I am more interested in rules and regulations in varous countries.


Paraservice

May 1, 2012, 10:14 PM
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Re: [michaelqld] Downsizng Rules/Regulations [In reply to] Can't Post

In Denmark we have following rules

C-license (App 40 Jumps) and until you reach 200 jumps:
Only semi elliptical canopies. Weight naked + 10 KG-then you must have max 0.5 kg pr sq ft .
85 kg naked + 10 kg means 190 sq. ft

From 200 and up to 400 jumps :
Weight naked + 10 KG- then you must have max 0.650 kg pr sq ft .
85 kg naked + 10 kg means 146 sq. ft.
Only semi elliptical canopies, unless you choose to stick to 0,5 kg pr sq. ft. (Elliptical canopies are defined by name- Katana, Crossfire etc)

400-600 jumps:
Common sense. No wingload restrictions, but crossbrace canopies are not allowed

600 jumps: Only common sense


The problem with this simple way is, that sometimes we hold someone back and sometimes people get into too small canopies too early. I think it's difficult only to have rules. A mix that includes canopy piloting courses will definately improve safety


tistouta

May 2, 2012, 12:40 AM
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Re: [michaelqld] Downsizng Rules/Regulations [In reply to] Can't Post

In France there is a key chart limiting the wingload from 0 to 600 jumps. Document can be found here: http://www.ffp.asso.fr/...ale_des_voiles-2.pdf

I know that a big change is being prepared, but for next year.


YvonneWiggers  (D License)

May 2, 2012, 1:17 AM
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Re: [michaelqld] Downsizng Rules/Regulations [In reply to] Can't Post

Here you have the Dutch one:
http://parachute.nl/...sie_2011-07_juli.pdf

For the different categories you need a certain amount of jumps, and you need to be current.

It tells you which type of canopy you can jump, which minimum size, and which maximum wingload.

I : wingload max 1,1; at least 170 sqft
II : >25 jumps total, >10 last 12 months: wingload max 1,1; at least 170 sqft
III : >100 jumps total, >25 last 12 months: wingload max 1,3; at least 150 sqft
IV : >400 jumps total, >50 last 12 months: wingload max 1,5; at least 135 sqft
V : >700 jumps total, >100 last 12 months: wingload max 1,7, at least 120 sqft
VI : >1000 jumps total, no restrictions

If a canopy is not listed, it's automatically classified as catVI.


stian

May 2, 2012, 3:25 AM
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Re: [michaelqld] Downsizng Rules/Regulations [In reply to] Can't Post

These are the Norwegian rules which became effective as of march 21 this year.

(I just copied the chart and did a quick translation of the details, might be some typos and stuff in it, this is not an official Norwegian skydiving association document but the info is correct)

I didn't bother to edit the chart but "elev" = student and "hopp" = jumps


(This post was edited by stian on May 2, 2012, 3:40 AM)
Attachments: Canpoy size chart.pdf (65.0 KB)


NeverTooLow

May 3, 2012, 1:10 AM
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Re: [stian] Downsizng Rules/Regulations [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Stian,

Do I read this correct or is it not allowed to fly any canopy smaller than 89 sqft. in Norway and I (85kg exitweight) could not fly something less than 104 sqft.? Or do you just go to the chefinstructor of the DZ and ask him if you can jump your small canopy?

Ciao Roman


piisfish

May 3, 2012, 3:12 AM
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Re: [NeverTooLow] Downsizng Rules/Regulations [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ROman, apparently their norgie rules apply to jumpers up to 1000 jumps. After that, only good judgement would apply


stian

May 3, 2012, 5:37 AM
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Re: [piisfish] Downsizng Rules/Regulations [In reply to] Can't Post

This is correct, I think the main instrukcor wil get more involved in the future.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

May 3, 2012, 9:58 AM
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Re: [piisfish] Downsizng Rules/Regulations [In reply to] Can't Post

It is quite funny that good judgement would develop only after 500 jumps.Cool


michaelqld

May 3, 2012, 4:48 PM
Post #10 of 20 (3877 views)
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Re: [YvonneWiggers] Downsizng Rules/Regulations [In reply to] Can't Post

That's awesome, thanks for the info everyone.

Does anyone out there know if the British Parachute Association have any such rules?


Pendragon  (D 104102)

May 8, 2012, 4:24 AM
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Re: [michaelqld] Downsizng Rules/Regulations [In reply to] Can't Post

The BPA as an organisation doesn't set any rules regarding wing loading once off student status; it's up to the Club Chief Instructor to be happy with you jumping with the canopy - and they do pay a considerable amount of attention to that. However, high performance landings - defined as anything to accelerate the canopy beyond its normal flying speed to land - cannot be conducted unsupervised until you have been through training and been given a suitable endorsement on your licence.

What I don't like about broad-brush wingloading-based rules for canopy choice are:

1. They can be too generous to small, lighter jumpers / too harsh on big heavy guys (it's not just wingloading; absolute size makes a difference)

2. Jump #s do not take into account prior experience (I was a hang and paraglider pilot before I jumped) and ability levels (I've also seen jumpers with 700+ skydives that would not be safe on anything more aggressive than a 7-cell canopy @ 1.2 lbs/sq ft doing straight-in approaches)

3. As could be seen in Germany and Austria with paragliders under the DHV system, once you reach a certain threshold in experience and become entitled to use a higher performance canopy, the decision to migrate to the higher perforance planform is often taken with scant regard for the pilot's own ability

4. Progress is usually not smooth, with jumps in performance being common (I think of my own downsize history - got to a 150 @ 1.4 relatively quickly; did hundreds of jumps on that before going through a 129 fairly quickly to a 109, which I had for several hundred. before trying crossbraced)

Consequently, I'm not in favour of implementing a hard "jump number"-based system of rules for downsizing, rather empowering those club operators to make appropriate choices given abililty.


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

May 10, 2012, 9:35 AM
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Re: [Paraservice] Downsizng Rules/Regulations [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting. Can you share the by-name list of canopies considered "semi-elliptical" vs. "elliptical?"

Specifically, I would like to know which category the Stiletto falls into.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

May 10, 2012, 3:16 PM
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Re: [slotperfect] Downsizng Rules/Regulations [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Interesting. Can you share the by-name list of canopies considered "semi-elliptical" vs. "elliptical?"

Specifically, I would like to know which category the Stiletto falls into.

Here is an example from Finland, what canopies A,B license holders and under 200 jump can use:
list1
list2

Stiletto is not on that list, so it should be elliptical...Cool


mmm_peanuts  (D 29215)

May 10, 2012, 8:55 PM
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Downsizng Rules/Regulations [In reply to] Can't Post

An Onyx is allowable under 200 jumps... Seems to be a bit more of a handful than a Stiletto IMO. Then again, my Finnish is a bit rusty.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

May 10, 2012, 11:56 PM
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Re: [mmm_peanuts] Downsizng Rules/Regulations [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
An Onyx is allowable under 200 jumps... Seems to be a bit more of a handful than a Stiletto IMO. Then again, my Finnish is a bit rusty.

Onyx from parachute-shop.com. What is wrong with that?


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
May 11, 2012, 4:07 AM
Post #16 of 20 (3476 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Downsizng Rules/Regulations [In reply to] Can't Post

Atair made an onyx too. I think thats what the poster was thinking of


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

May 11, 2012, 4:35 AM
Post #17 of 20 (3469 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Downsizng Rules/Regulations [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Atair made an onyx too. I think thats what the poster was thinking of
I'm aware of that.

Anyway that list was from Canopy model and manufacturer.


Willi91  (E 369)

May 11, 2012, 6:24 AM
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Re: [slotperfect] Downsizng Rules/Regulations [In reply to] Can't Post

Semi ellipticals are canopies like Sabre2, Safire2 and Sonic from JoJo Wings.
Stilletto is a fully elliptical and requires 200 jumps before jumping it.


morris

May 15, 2012, 6:04 AM
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Re: [michaelqld] Downsizng Rules/Regulations [In reply to] Can't Post

I would have liked to add that - (even though some people will not like to hear that) - the accident statistics of the countries with mandatory downsizing rules prove them right!


rem

May 16, 2012, 3:36 AM
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Re: [morris] Downsizng Rules/Regulations [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...the accident statistics of the countries with mandatory downsizing rules prove them right!...
that is only "one" of the possible way.
how can you prove that it is not rather because the jumper that are now flying like "pussy"...
and again,
except for the tranquility of DZO, how is this "so" better?

i dont know about other country, but in France, accidents are primarily due to lack of formation and training.
the size is only one factor agravant, or not...
and again, again, for the French, the problem is similar in driving a car, or bike, etc...


(This post was edited by rem on May 16, 2012, 3:42 AM)



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