Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier?

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next page Last page  View All

bochen280

Apr 27, 2012, 8:23 AM
Post #1 of 171 (6995 views)
Shortcut
1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? Can't Post

I'm from the TX area and earlier this week was my first time skydiving. I wanted to do my first jump solo but unfortunately was told by the DZ that that was only offered on the weekends. So I went with a tandem jump instead.

When I got there, winds were calm, clear skies all around, absolutely beautiful weather and temperatures.

The tandem instructor I was paired with happened to be one of the more experienced, with I think 5,000+ jumps.

He briefed me on the basics, put me in a blue jumpsuit, and I had to put on that silly looking hat... basically it was pretty fast paced in less than half an hour after I got to the DZ we were already up in the air (not a lot of other tandem jumpers that day, so loading went quick)

The jump itself went perfect. I arched when I was supposed to... everything was stabilized. The instructor didn't forget to deploy the drogue chute or miss a strap or d-link.

Freefall was by far the best part... but I honestly felt it was way too short. I understand for safety reasons (in case he had to cutaway) tandem pulls happen at 5,500ft... but I don't think our airplane ever reached the max of 13,500 ft when we jumped out... barely even 13,000ft... I would have liked longer freefall experience. But oh well.

Even though I had those goggles on and was wearing them correctly, I lost a contact lenses on the way down during free fall shortly after we reached terminal velocity. I have no idea how that could have happened but I guess the wind must have went in on the sides.

During the glide down to earth the straps felt way too tight for comfort... The instructor said that was to prevent me from falling out... I didn't believe him until I got home and researched this and found out there were passengers that have fallen out of their tandem suits/harness before..

Landing didn't seem a big deal at all until I hit the ground and broken/sprained/fractured my ankle really badly...

I've been basically resting the last couple of days and had some time to think about how this incident might have happened and how it could be or could have been avoided or mitigated.

At only 5'11" I'm actually at least three if not four inches TALLER than my tandem instructor. I didn't weight him but they DID weight me, and I was at 199lbs (just under the 200 limit were I would be fined extra for the jump, and 11+ more lbs I wouldn't have been able to jump at all) I'm not fat or rotund, just heavy.

I mean it doesn't help matters that I was both taller and heavier than my instructor by a significant amount... not only does that tilt the center of gravity, it also means a faster fall rate (harder landing) and who knows I have a big head (no kidding, they had to get me the largest hat and even then it barely fit) and I might have blocked some of his visibility...

Between the tight straps, the jump suit and just the overall position of being suspended in the air during the glide to final approach I really had a very hard time of "bringing my knees up", or "bringing my legs up" and then "pointing my toes towards the ground"...

During the brief classroom instruction I was told to keep both my feet and knees together, bring legs up during landing, and keep toes pointing forward... That was easy to do under normal circumstances, but in that suit and with those death grip straps it was nearly impossible to do...

I told the instructor this prior to final approach and he told me to use my hands and grab onto those funky looking green tube-like things on the sides of my leg/thigh on the blue suit itself to basically "pull myself/my legs Up" ... I did this during his flare and I thought everything would go smoothly...

Then he surprised me by saying that we are doing a sit down, at the very last moment.... next thing I know my butt slams the ground, and seemingly at the same moment my right foot/ankle got hurt really bad.

On our way down I chatted with him a bit about the accuracy of his landing ability... he told me he had a stadium rating or something like that and could land within meters of where he intended to land.... I took that to mean he could also provide the softest landing possible... I was less concerned about accuracy and more about gentleness on impact with ground. During classroom he briefed me on the procedure for a standup landing, but not a PLC (I didn't even know what that term was until much later when I read the SIM about types of landing techniques) ... so went he told me we were during a sit down at the very last possible moment, I had no time to react, and even if I did have time, I wouldn't have know what exactly to do....

I think all that coupled with the fact that I've never been a very flexible person (in terms of legs, stretching, arms, etc) meant that under those tight straps it was not possible for me to keep my feet closely together, and I could only bring up my legs with the help of my arms, and when pulling up by the side of my jumpsuit on each side of the thigh, this caused my feet to orient outwards/split.... (as opposed to ideally be straight and pointed directly forward) and on impact that was what strained/fractured my ankle/foot....

The instructor was so concerned about a possible "face plant" (that was what he called it) if my feet hit the ground first and we toppled over, that he obsessed about getting my feet up to the point where I forgot the actual landing/impact and the position/angle of my feet upon impact.

There was a girl beside me doing tandem with another instructor and she had a stand up landing and I felt really bad about myself.

I never intend on doing tandem again (in fact I never wanted to do tandem in the first place, but it was the only option under those circumstances)

Is solo landing any easier? I see others doing perfect running landings, stand up landings at the DZ all the time that morning when I first drove in..... it doesn't seem that difficult at all....

Ironically, is tandem landings more dangerous than solo landings if the passenger is both taller and heavier than the instructor? I see videos on the net all the time when this petite lady just rests on top of her bigger, taller male tandem instructor and she just lands as light as a feather..... in my case it was lopsided and I was larger than my instructor, and believe me it was NOT a soft landing by any means.

Would landing have been easier had I done this on my own instead of worrying about making sure my instructors feet landed first before I was allowed to make contact with the ground?


(This post was edited by bochen280 on Apr 27, 2012, 9:30 AM)


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Apr 27, 2012, 8:39 AM
Post #2 of 171 (6905 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

First of all... are you an engineer? Just a hunch Angelic

Do you have video of your landing? That would be helpful given that you don't know what your leg position actually was on landing. My best guess is that you may have reached for the ground or didn't have them up enough. Your height difference has little to do with it. There are some good pics on here somewhere of a female TI, a tiny little girl, with a tandem 'student' that is well over 6' tall. There's a female TI at a DZ I frequent that often takes guys a foot taller than she is, doesn't seem to affect her landings at all.

About sit vs. stand landings... imagine coordinating 4 legs on two different people precicely so that you aren't tripping each other on landing. Not always feasable or practical, so sliding landings are often used. Pros and cons to both, that I'm sure the TIs will pipe up with (I'm not a TI but I did sleep with one last night Smile)

'Difficulty' of landing tandem vs solo is a meaningless term. They are different, that's all. If you want to learn to skydive, heal up and go back and do that solo, either AFF or IAD.


normiss  (D 28356)

Apr 27, 2012, 8:39 AM
Post #3 of 171 (6905 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like your legs went to sleep...and therefore you didn't get them up as required.
I hate when a tandem student gets broken!
I tend to be very firm with some (especially the larger ones that are also NOT in decent physical shape).
I tell them bluntly: "If you don't lift your legs we have a very good chance of breaking your leg. Then you get a very expensive ride to the hospital, but you will get good drugs!"

Then I show them to simply grab the jumpsuit at the knees and lift your legs up using the suit.

And yes, solo landing is significantly safer and generally easier...once you understand the timing of it.

I'm sorry you got hurt, yet that IS a risk.

As I sit here with my right foot in an air cast.
My shoe edge caught the ground on a tandem landing and folded my foot under me. I'm glad I cleared my leg before we finished landing as it could have been much worse than just a Jones Fracture.

Heal up fast, then go get back in the sky!

Cool


bochen280

Apr 27, 2012, 8:57 AM
Post #4 of 171 (6883 views)
Shortcut
Re: [peregrinerose] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

peregrinerose, no I'm not an engineer. I work in IT but definitely not a geek.

This is going to sound weird, but even though I purchased the packaged that included everything, I specifically told them to put away the cameras and that I didn't want the camera man. I didn't go there to make "memories", and I don't think the "first time" is any different than the nth time... I just wanted a jump experience. I've always been camera shy and didn't want the annoying camera jumper to be distracting me from the already short free fall time that I did have. So no, nothing was captured on video or photo. The reason I purchased the highest level package is because I didn't want to get stuck in "classroom" for long periods or wait after everyone else (this was a last moment thing where I scheduled the day before, so I would have been LAST on the list to jump)... in actuality had I known Monday's would be so light in terms of tandem passengers then a standard jump would be just the same.

Yeah I didn't even think about the tripping over each other's leg component of that... if we were both doing running landings at the same time, that very well might have happened.

Tandem is definitely not a passive roller coaster ride. It just seems if there are pros and cons and risks with both methods involved I'd rather do solo on my own.


bochen280

Apr 27, 2012, 8:57 AM
Post #5 of 171 (6879 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

normiss, my legs didn't really go to sleep. I could get them up, just not up enough to the point that my instructor would have liked. I felt and saw them pulling up, but he kept telling me he couldn't "see them"... I know the sensation of legs going to sleep, but this was not the case. I think the tight straps and the fact that I was suspended in the air with those straps that were seperating my legs made it very hard to keep them together... and pulling my legs up to that extend and with that duration required stronger abdominal muscles than I had.

For solo landings, how does one "know" the timing of the flare, how much to brake, and when to start "running"? I guess it all comes with real life practice and runs a risk no matter what?

Are there any water landing DZ for AFF? There is nothing safer than a soft water landing right? Though, being in Texas that is probably not practical... we dont' have any oceans around here...


normiss  (D 28356)

Apr 27, 2012, 9:00 AM
Post #6 of 171 (6875 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Water??? No thanks - I don't wanna drown!

Think about all that gear wet and how much that could weigh you down.


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Apr 27, 2012, 9:13 AM
Post #7 of 171 (6860 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

'soft' water landing? Hardly. There's nothing soft about water, and gives a whole list of complicating factors, not the least of which is drowning.

Sounds like you just weren't flexible enough to get the legs up high enough. I'd definitely recommend lots of stretching, as that helps quite a bit with skydiving.

It wasn't 'geeky' that I was going for, it was the extreme analyticalness of your post. Engineering types are always that way. I'm an optometrist, and have a love/hate relationship with my engineer type patients due to their excessive overthinking Smile


dthames  (B 37674)

Apr 27, 2012, 9:24 AM
Post #8 of 171 (6851 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
For solo landings, how does one "know" the timing of the flare, how much to brake, and when to start "running"? I guess it all comes with real life practice and runs a risk no matter what?

You pretend/practice in the first jump course. Then you do it. Sometimes it is better than others. After a while you learn to be more precise. A beginneer (me) running out a landing is not advised.

PFL Parachute Landing Fall, unless you are perfectly sat down on your feet.


dontlikemustard  (B License)

Apr 27, 2012, 9:46 AM
Post #9 of 171 (6823 views)
Shortcut
Re: [peregrinerose] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm an optometrist, and have a love/hate relationship with my engineer type patients due to their excessive overthinking Smile

haha, engineer here and thats me in a nutshell.


dontlikemustard  (B License)

Apr 27, 2012, 9:57 AM
Post #10 of 171 (6810 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For solo landings, how does one "know" the timing of the flare, how much to brake, and when to start "running"? I guess it all comes with real life practice and runs a risk no matter what?

as a student jumper the landing is definitely the part of the skydive i am worried about the most.

as far as how to know when to flare, you have a radio and they tell you when to flare as you are approaching to land.

on my first solo i landed skidding, standing up. but it was not a good landing. i landed a bit hard on my right foot because my leg was stiff, it hurt a bit. I also pulled on both toggles slightly before fully flaring.

landing on water is not going to teach you how to land properly.

Next time you are at the DZ you should spend some time and just watch people land before your jump, that's what im gonna do.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Apr 27, 2012, 11:48 AM
Post #11 of 171 (6762 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just a quick reply on a few of the topics:

Getting the legs up for landing can be difficult for even a fit student IF the harness is not adjusted well. It is something that instructors are not always perfectly aware of because they are rarely ever on front.

Using the grippers on the side of the jumpsuit is a good way to help get the legs up.

Legs straps normally stay pretty tight but a couple others can be loosened off after the canopy opens to avoid discomfort for the student. Only 1 able bodied person has ever fallen out of a tandem harness and that's due to gross misadjustment. Still, everyone in the industry likes to have straps good and snug -- even if we'd leave everything just a little looser and more comfortable on our personal gear.

Students aren't always ready to use leg muscles to avoid slamming their butt on the ground, and it is something instructors could talk more about. We're used to being ready to apply some muscle tension, but students often are not.

Usually tandem landings go OK but maybe in 1 in 1000 a student gets injured. (That's a pretty rough guess.) Not every tandem landing is perfectly soft and feet do sometimes get twisted, especially because newbies don't have a good sense yet of the timing of the landing and body position.

Plenty of tandems happen with students heavier or also taller than the instructor. That's pretty common. It all comes down to getting a good flare, which is a bit harder the heavier the pair of people is, but not a whole lot.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Apr 27, 2012, 12:40 PM
Post #12 of 171 (6727 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dontlikemustard] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
as far as how to know when to flare, you have a radio and they tell you when to flare as you are approaching to land.

Not every dz puts radios on their students. Even if they do, radios can fail. Don't count on getting any help with flare timing on any jump.

In reply to:
Next time you are at the DZ you should spend some time and just watch people land before your jump

Excellent advice! Pay particular attention to those jumping student canopies. If possible, find an instructor or coach and ask questions about what you are seeing.


dontlikemustard  (B License)

Apr 27, 2012, 2:13 PM
Post #13 of 171 (6672 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skybytch] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
as far as how to know when to flare, you have a radio and they tell you when to flare as you are approaching to land.

Not every dz puts radios on their students. Even if they do, radios can fail. Don't count on getting any help with flare timing on any jump.


hmm, wasnt aware of that. if it wasn't for that radio i definitely would have flared too early. the ground seemed much closer than it was once i was at around 25 feet from landing.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Apr 30, 2012, 5:25 PM
Post #14 of 171 (6392 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

I read that big long post and by the end all I could think about was the fact that some dropzones still charge a "fat tax". Disgusting. If you are too big to jump, you are too big. If you are not too big to jump you should be treated just like everyone else, even if it takes a little more effort to do so. I can't get over the greediness of that... Do skinny chicks pay less than mediocre sized people because it takes less gas to get them to altitude and causes less fatigue on the instructor? Doubt it.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 30, 2012, 7:42 PM
Post #15 of 171 (6370 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dontlikemustard] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
as far as how to know when to flare, you have a radio and they tell you when to flare as you are approaching to land.

Not every dz puts radios on their students. Even if they do, radios can fail. Don't count on getting any help with flare timing on any jump.


hmm, wasnt aware of that. if it wasn't for that radio i definitely would have flared too early. the ground seemed much closer than it was once i was at around 25 feet from landing.

No offense to you but this is a good example of why we kind of cringe when students offer advice on the internet. You will hear the saying, "You don't know what you don't know."


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Apr 30, 2012, 7:43 PM)


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Apr 30, 2012, 8:43 PM
Post #16 of 171 (6346 views)
Shortcut
Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

you don't know what you don't know, come back with a tandem rating and a couple thousand tandems.

In reply to:
I read that big long post and by the end all I could think about was the fact that some dropzones still charge a "fat tax". Disgusting. If you are too big to jump, you are too big. If you are not too big to jump you should be treated just like everyone else, even if it takes a little more effort to do so. I can't get over the greediness of that... Do skinny chicks pay less than mediocre sized people because it takes less gas to get them to altitude and causes less fatigue on the instructor? Doubt it.


spootch  (C License)

Apr 30, 2012, 10:53 PM
Post #17 of 171 (6342 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jsaxton] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
you don't know what you don't know, come back with a tandem rating and a couple thousand tandems.

In reply to:
I read that big long post and by the end all I could think about was the fact that some dropzones still charge a "fat tax". Disgusting. If you are too big to jump, you are too big. If you are not too big to jump you should be treated just like everyone else, even if it takes a little more effort to do so. I can't get over the greediness of that... Do skinny chicks pay less than mediocre sized people because it takes less gas to get them to altitude and causes less fatigue on the instructor? Doubt it.


And then what? I've taken everyone from 90 lbs to 210 and they all pay the same and get the same treatment.


dontlikemustard  (B License)

Apr 30, 2012, 11:41 PM
Post #18 of 171 (6322 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No offense to you but this is a good example of why we kind of cringe when students offer advice on the internet. You will hear the saying, "You don't know what you don't know."

Point taken and understood, didn't take offense.


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 1, 2012, 4:01 AM
Post #19 of 171 (6283 views)
Shortcut
Re: [spootch] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
you don't know what you don't know, come back with a tandem rating and a couple thousand tandems.

In reply to:
I read that big long post and by the end all I could think about was the fact that some dropzones still charge a "fat tax". Disgusting. If you are too big to jump, you are too big. If you are not too big to jump you should be treated just like everyone else, even if it takes a little more effort to do so. I can't get over the greediness of that... Do skinny chicks pay less than mediocre sized people because it takes less gas to get them to altitude and causes less fatigue on the instructor? Doubt it.


And then what? I've taken everyone from 90 lbs to 210 and they all pay the same and get the same treatment.

Except I do know that sometimes it takes a little more work to give a customer the same treatment as others. Just because it is in another business shouldn't matter. I know plenty of tandem instructors who think it is wrong. Would you charge extra to take a disabled person because it is more work? It's greedy. Suck it up and do the job yOu get paid for.


linebckr83  (D 30571)

May 1, 2012, 7:42 AM
Post #20 of 171 (6232 views)
Shortcut
Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't expect anything extra for taking a big 220lb guy. But after you try crawling around a 182 with someone of that size, you'll understand why I definitely don't turn down the extra money.

And generally, a mediocre sized female is a little cuter than a big dude so I don't expect extra Wink

To the OP, I'd put money down that if you did another tandem jump, your landing would be considerably nicer. Sometimes this kind of thing happens, but usually not. Tandem landings are a very dynamic process, and sometimes an error in judgement occurs. In all honesty, even if you couldn't pick your feet up enough, he should have the experience and knowledge to deal with it. You'd be surprised how often a tandem student doesn't raise their feet as much as I'd like.

It's not really fair to compare it to the "soft tiptoe landings" of experienced jumpers, which IMO are much easier. Spend some time and watch the solo students landing, and you'll see it is a little harder to do correctly when you're first learning.


airtwardo  (D License)

May 1, 2012, 8:18 AM
Post #21 of 171 (6219 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not fat or rotund, just heavy...

...that coupled with the fact that I've never been a very flexible person (in terms of legs, stretching, arms, etc).

In reply to:

So...you're overweight & out of shape.

...but then again,~

The harness was too tight, the helmet too small, the goggles too loose, the TM too short, the altitude to little -Shocked

~Lucky ya survived at all! WinkSly


DougH  (D License)

May 1, 2012, 8:52 AM
Post #22 of 171 (6203 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airtwardo] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Better to high than too low... better to tight than tooooooo loose. TongueCool

I am glad I don't get a phat boy fee but I can totally support the TM's that do get one. It is more work, and it is more wear and tear on the body.

Instead we have a relatively low weight limit and no option for people to "pay up" into the next weight bracket.

It gives me way more flexibility as the instructor because I get to choose to take people that are over the weight "limit" and I can make a judgement call based on fitness and body shape. It is much easier and safer to take some one who is heavier because they are big and fit, than to take some one who lacks fitness and is shaped like a bowling ball.

We will see if I still like the flexibility and lack of extra compensation in a few hundred tandem jumps!Sly


normiss  (D 28356)

May 1, 2012, 8:56 AM
Post #23 of 171 (6196 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DougH] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

While I do also use fitness and body shape as a consideration, it's of a much greater significance to consider the maximum weight limits....I would REALLY hate to blow thru a reserve.....
Unsure


bochen280

May 1, 2012, 1:12 PM
Post #24 of 171 (6146 views)
Shortcut
Re: [linebckr83] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Most of the DZ in my area has a weight surcharge, it is just like how Fedex/UPS has fuel surcharge these days. With gas prices so high aviation fuel isn't cheap either so I understand why they have that in place. Plus when the government puts in place the 100 dollar per flight tax all skydiving is suddenly going to get a heck of a lot more expensive.

In my logbook I think the equipment used was a 366. Maybe they didn't have a 400? It would have given me a slower fall rate for sure... but then again my feet were still not positioned correctly...

I think towards the last few seconds before impact the TM had stressed so much about getting my feet up in the air to avoid faceplants that all I was thinking about and preoccupied about was using my arms to grab on to the leg grabbers on the side and pull up as much and for as long as possible... mentally I just "froze" (not as in panic, more like idling) in that state... On retrospect, I don't know what I was thinking would happen, that he'd do a stand up landing and hold a 200 lb person in his front kangaroo pouch? Of course not... it is obvious that laws of physics dictate we (at the very least ME) would either topple over hard or butt hit the ground the last few feet... I'm lucky I didn't break any back bones...

The thing is I was not briefed what to do in the above situation... all I was told is to wait for his signal to "standup"... but that call never came, and by the time he told me we were doing sit down, already splat... and I had no time to even think about getting my feet in a better position to absorb forces on impact.

Being a guy that is the reason I don't want to do tandem in the first place. I wouldn't mind doing it if I was a small petite girl... but seriously tandem is kinda gay for a guy to do... and it is not even a real skydiving... I know control is an illusion, but if I'm going to get hurt I want to be responsible for hurting myself... not put my fate in some TM - no matter his level of experience.

I've seen some very soft tiptoe landings on Youtube... it almost seems like they were literally stepping off an escalator... that is a real ideal landing.


sebcat  (D 22826)

May 1, 2012, 1:30 PM
Post #25 of 171 (6130 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

You jumped, you lived, good job! We can't pad all the floors and walls, now can we?


First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Tandem Skydiving

 


Search for (options)