Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
The Stall: video discussion on Safety First TV with Brian Germain

 


BrianSGermain  (D 11154)

Mar 21, 2012, 11:14 AM
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The Stall: video discussion on Safety First TV with Brian Germain Can't Post

Here is some in-depth talk on the topic of parachute stalls. Please forward to your students!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct5V9G_WIuA

Enjoy!
Brian


JasonYergin  (C 40641)

Apr 28, 2012, 6:11 AM
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Re: [BrianSGermain] The Stall: video discussion on Safety First TV with Brian Germain [In reply to] Can't Post

I honestly can't tell if you yourself would rather people learn a stall and recovery with toggles or rears.

I get that rears are quicker, possibly scarier and recover in such a way that the wing might try to snatch the rears outta your hands but....

I'll try it with toggles first I think. Unimpressed


BrianSGermain  (D 11154)

Apr 28, 2012, 10:07 PM
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I guess I could have been clearer a out that. I usually suggest stall on the rears first. You are less likely to go off heading or spin into line twists. Both can be done safely with good technique and ample altitude (sufficient for a safe cutaway).

-Brian


JasonYergin  (C 40641)

Apr 28, 2012, 11:07 PM
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Re: [BrianSGermain] The Stall: video discussion on Safety First TV with Brian Germain [In reply to] Can't Post

That's what hungry newbies like me are for, right? Checking on anything that isn't overly, abundantly clear and maybe clarifying for anyone else who isn't totally sure.

I really want to try this and I think I might see why my prior attempts didn't work. Twice before, at altitude, I held the brakes down, down, down and even wrapped the toggles to get a little more out of the lines but still no total stall.

So it could just be that I should have been a little more aggressive...


dragon2  (D 101989)

Apr 29, 2012, 10:01 AM
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Re: [JasonYergin] The Stall: video discussion on Safety First TV with Brian Germain [In reply to] Can't Post

Not every canopy can be stalled by holding the toggles down at full arm extension. Student canopies are often de-tuned to prevent exactly that. Also a canopy that has long enough brakelines to be usable for swooping (ie, not distort the tail while hanging in full front risers) may not be stall-able that way.

Be very very careful when taking a wrap, especially for the purpose of doing toggle stalls. I'd strongly advise you not to. If you let the brakes up too quickly, let the canopy spin up or have something else happen, you are now stuck to your canopy.


JasonYergin  (C 40641)

Apr 29, 2012, 10:45 AM
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Re: [dragon2] The Stall: video discussion on Safety First TV with Brian Germain [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks dragon2... I understand what you're saying and I'm sure you're right.

The way I did I think I was safe because I didn't wind any brake line around my hands, more like a half turn pointed down. It could've been worse though because I hadn't read to let it up slowly and just a little bit at that time.

You guessed it too,the Skymaster 200 on one attempt and the Sabre2 190 on the other were apparently detuned for student use and wouldn't stall which is probably a good thing.


AdamWirtz2001  (C 40050)

May 21, 2012, 5:42 AM
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Re: [BrianSGermain] The Stall: video discussion on Safety First TV with Brian Germain [In reply to] Can't Post

Brian,

Great video. I was just working on this to complete my B license proficiency card. I actually quite enjoy stalling my canopy. So much so that my gf on the ground became concerned(also a jumper).

We got into a debate regarding whether you can stall a canopy too long. She is of the opinion that if you stall for too long, the wing will not be able to recover(even with infinite altitude). I am of the opinion that as long as you don't twist up the lines or cause some other mal while stalling, you can recover the wing.

It seems to me that even if you have been stalled for a long time and that the wing is deflated and just trailing above you, you can recover it. Seems that once you start to release the toggles/risers, drag will cause the tail to move up and backwards to start to flatten the wing and change the angle of attack. The wing will then start to inflate and become a wing again.

What are your thoughts on this?

(This post was edited by AdamWirtz2001 on May 21, 2012, 5:43 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 21, 2012, 6:09 AM
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Re: [AdamWirtz2001] The Stall: video discussion on Safety First TV with Brian Germain [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
my gf on the ground became concerned(also a jumper).

We got into a debate regarding whether you can stall a canopy too long. She is of the opinion that if you stall for too long, the wing will not be able to recover(even with infinite altitude)

Be careful how you break the news, but she's as wrong as wrong could be. The canopy has no idea how long a stall has been held, it simply responds to whatever input the jumper provides.

If the jumper provides the correct input, the canopy will recover the same from a 1 second stall as it will from a 1 minute stall.


BrianSGermain  (D 11154)

May 21, 2012, 7:45 AM
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Re: [AdamWirtz2001] The Stall: video discussion on Safety First TV with Brian Germain [In reply to] Can't Post

There is some variability across designs that must be noted here. I would not worry about stalling most seven cell or docile canopies for long periods of time. Many high performance canopies can spin into linestwists from subtle asymmetry in the toggles or harness. I would therefore suggest just "tickling" the stall on those canopies.

If we are talking about symmetrical rear riser stalls, there is not much cause for concern. Toggle stalls are more likely to go off heading. Either way however, symmetrical stalls and recoveries are reasonable events, but it is best not to go looking for trouble.

Remind your girlfriend that parachutes get squished up into little bags and they tend to open. If you are afraid to stall your canopy, you are afraid to flare your canopy for landing. When we look for the monster under the bed, we usually discover that there was no monster at all.

Happy Landings,
Brian


AdamWirtz2001  (C 40050)

May 21, 2012, 8:04 AM
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Re: [BrianSGermain] The Stall: video discussion on Safety First TV with Brian Germain [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the great responses guys!

I'm glad to lay this debate to rest.

Blue Skies,

Adam


xaviercomelli  (B License)

May 21, 2012, 2:28 PM
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Re: [BrianSGermain] The Stall: video discussion on Safety First TV with Brian Germain [In reply to] Can't Post

Great video...

A couples of weeks ago working on the proficiency card for my B-Lic and encouraged by my instructor I fully stalled my main three times in the same jump... loved it, and it's amazing how much more confident I feel under canopy and how much better my landings are now.

PS: I did read a few of your very good articles on this topic before :D :D :D


(This post was edited by xaviercomelli on May 21, 2012, 3:37 PM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 21, 2012, 5:53 PM
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Re: [davelepka] The Stall: video discussion on Safety First TV with Brian Germain [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If the jumper provides the correct input, the canopy will recover the same from a 1 second stall as it will from a 1 minute stall.

Well, I'd agree if the canopy is in a steady state situation.

However:
1) If it is twitchy in the stall, then the longer you hold it, the more time you are exposed to having it do something funky, adding risk as the time of exposure goes up.

2) I'm thinking a smaller canopy might not be at its own full "terminal velocity" if only in a stall a few seconds. One might be still accelerating downwards for some time. Recovering a fully stalled, messy canopy, slider down, will be snappier and more sudden at higher speed, making it more likely that one messes up or gets unlucky and into unrecoverable line twists.

(I haven't done a lot of stalls, but more than most people, including getting fully toggle stalled on a Stiletto 120 and FX 88.)

So I kind of think there is some time factor involved. But that applies more to fast canopies. If one is under something more docile, then the idea of "it doesn't know how long it has been stalled" makes more sense.


GreggB  (D 17985)

May 21, 2012, 8:32 PM
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Re: [pchapman] The Stall: video discussion on Safety First TV with Brian Germain [In reply to] Can't Post

I used to full stall my PD210(9 cell F111) and fly it backwards to the dz held in a fullstall horseshoe without incident. my friends would do the same with similar canopies. They always recovered fine. Once you start playing with football shaped parachutes the game changes. I keep wanting to find an old parachute like that and ride the stall for a couple thousand feet so the folks on the ground can laugh at all the newbies getting excited, thinking they are watching something scary.


AdamWirtz2001  (C 40050)

May 21, 2012, 8:58 PM
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Re: [pchapman] The Stall: video discussion on Safety First TV with Brian Germain [In reply to] Can't Post

Now, I'm just tempted to do a high pull and see how many thousand feet I can do a stall for. Wink


flipper  (D 11524)

May 22, 2012, 5:26 AM
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Re: [BrianSGermain] The Stall: video discussion on Safety First TV with Brian Germain [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... If you are afraid to stall your canopy, you are afraid to flare your canopy for landing.

This is total crap


BrianSGermain  (D 11154)

May 22, 2012, 9:22 AM
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Re: [flipper] The Stall: video discussion on Safety First TV with Brian Germain [In reply to] Can't Post

You free to your oppinion.

In my experience, many people do not finish their flares. There are a number of reasons for this, but one of them is an aversion of the bottom of the toggle stroke. When someone explores the stall, they begin to get over the fear of finishing the flare.

Just as you are entitled to your oppinion that I am wrong, I am entitled to my oppinion that I am right.

Have a nice day.
Brian


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 22, 2012, 10:10 AM
Post #17 of 18 (1231 views)
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Re: [BrianSGermain] The Stall: video discussion on Safety First TV with Brian Germain [In reply to] Can't Post

To find a middle ground here:

Technically it is easy to refute "If you are afraid to stall your canopy, you are afraid to flare your canopy for landing". Hence someone calling the idea crap.

The statement on its own has to be wrong due to being too simplistic. If even one person is afraid to stall their canopy, but knows how to land well, the statement is wrong. Hey, I'm afraid to stall my little crossbrace canopy, although I have done it up high.

So the criticism is valid.

Still, there is an element of truth to the statement.
Some people might be hesitant in their flare due to worry about stalling. So the statement would need to be reworded to get at the true element in it. Teachers always have to work on their wording to better convey information.Smile


DivingWombat  (B License)

Jul 19, 2012, 1:53 PM
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Re: [pchapman] The Stall: video discussion on Safety First TV with Brian Germain [In reply to] Can't Post

I got very little experience in skydiving and therefore canopy control. However, what Brian states makes 100% sense to me.
If you want to master something you have to know the limits. The only way to know where the limits are is to go over them and learn! You will get the feeling when you are at the stall point and how to react without too much stress.
Think about how many jumpers stalled a canopy while landing it without even notice the heavily distorted wing.



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