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SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions

 

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Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Apr 24, 2012, 3:33 AM
Post #1 of 42 (3834 views)
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SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions Can't Post

OK, so I understand that SIGMA container is superior to other tandem containers in a way that if the main container opens, the drogue is automatically released, preventing the out-of-sequence deployment. That has been the feature marketed quite heavily over the years and it makes a lot of sense (especially, when you examine the 'tandem fatality list' prior to Sigma introduction...).

The question is: who experienced this feature 'in action', meaning container opening and autiomatical drouge release. I would like to hear some first hand accounts of some thankful users :-).

And the second question: did anyone experience out-of-sequence deployment on Sigma? (I cannot see that happening, but still...).


jerolim  (F License)

Apr 24, 2012, 4:14 AM
Post #2 of 42 (3773 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

No, it is other way around. You can't open main conteiner without throwing the drogue first,..


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Apr 24, 2012, 4:27 AM
Post #3 of 42 (3766 views)
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Re: [jerolim] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No, it is other way around. You can't open main conteiner without throwing the drogue first,..

That too. But my description is still valid.


DougH  (D License)

Apr 24, 2012, 4:49 AM
Post #4 of 42 (3759 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

The container closing loop and where the drouge anchors for drouge fall are one and the same. So a broken closing loop or a pulled handle without the drouge saftey pin in place will open the main container and release the drouge chimney. I would hesitate to say it automatically releases the drouge because it may not have been deployed yet and you could have it ball up in the pouch and horseshoe.

Check your closing loops and the pin. I have seen the pins come unseated after they were packed! Gear checks and heads up packers.

I will be interested in the replies!


DougH  (D License)

Apr 24, 2012, 4:56 AM
Post #5 of 42 (3751 views)
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Re: [jerolim] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No, it is other way around. You can't open main conteiner without throwing the drogue first,..

Only if the drogue safety pin is properly seated, if the pin came out all bets are off.


theonlyski  (D License)

Apr 24, 2012, 5:27 AM
Post #6 of 42 (3729 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, once your drogue is deployed, you cannot (barring any tearing of the container open) get a main bag out without the drogue being released.

Keep in mind as Doug said, that's only if the safety pin is properly seated. If it is properly seated, you cannot activate a drogue release.



To answer the question: I have experienced it on every jump I've done on a SIGMA, container opens and drogue automatically releases! Tongue


VTmotoMike08  (D 30399)

Apr 24, 2012, 7:30 PM
Post #7 of 42 (3576 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

This is kind of off topic but I have a question about the patent on the Sigma drogue release. Is the use of a drogue chimney and main closing loop integral to the drogue release completely patented to UPT and the sigma rigs? It is obviously the best system on the market for tandem main closing and no one else uses it. For example, the new strong tandem rig is more modern than the Sigma but it still uses a 3-ring release on the drogue.

This differs from the 3-ring release on main risers. Although it was invented by Bill Booth, all containers now use it, but I bet there is an agreement in place and some royalties paid. So is UPT not licensing the drogue chimney design to anyone else but is okay with the 3-ring patent being used by all?


Squeak  (E 1313)

Apr 24, 2012, 7:40 PM
Post #8 of 42 (3570 views)
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Re: [VTmotoMike08] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is kind of off topic but I have a question about the patent on the Sigma drogue release. Is the use of a drogue chimney and main closing loop integral to the drogue release completely patented to UPT and the sigma rigs? It is obviously the best system on the market for tandem main closing and no one else uses it. For example, the new strong tandem rig is more modern than the Sigma but it still uses a 3-ring release on the drogue.

This differs from the 3-ring release on main risers. Although it was invented by Bill Booth, all containers now use it, but I bet there is an agreement in place and some royalties paid. So is UPT not licensing the drogue chimney design to anyone else but is okay with the 3-ring patent being used by all?
From what i remember when BB designed the 3 ring, he released it openly and people made copies of it that were "subpar".
I dont think he is open to making that same mistake again.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Apr 25, 2012, 12:05 PM
Post #9 of 42 (3455 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

[raises finger]

Except I was the cameraflyer with a whole bunch of lines coming at me...

Everybody had missed the bag lying on the floor on exit.

The tandemcanopy opened fine in the end, and yes the drogue was pulled out of the pocket before the TM could do it himself, he was going for it right out the door.
By the time the canopy had passed me, the half linetwist was gone as well.

From my point of view, it kinda looked like a direct-bag staticline type of jump.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Apr 26, 2012, 1:26 AM
Post #10 of 42 (3301 views)
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Re: [VTmotoMike08] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the new strong tandem rig is more modern than the Sigma

In what way?

In reply to:
This differs from the 3-ring release on main risers. Although it was invented by Bill Booth, all containers now use it, but I bet there is an agreement in place and some royalties paid. So is UPT not licensing the drogue chimney design to anyone else but is okay with the 3-ring patent being used by all?

The 3-ring patent expired approximately 13 years ago (20 years after its invention). I believe, Bill Booth had been charging other manufacturers 6 dollars for every rig using the 3-ring release system (1 dollar for every ring). I am talking about solo rigs, not sure about the tandem drouge release 3-rings.




Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Apr 26, 2012, 1:28 AM
Post #11 of 42 (3300 views)
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Re: [Squeak] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is kind of off topic but I have a question about the patent on the
From what i remember when BB designed the 3 ring, he released it openly

No, please see the above post.

Also, I think the Sigma rig is patented in at least USA and EU.


feuergnom  (D License)

Apr 26, 2012, 5:53 AM
Post #12 of 42 (3263 views)
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Re: [VTmotoMike08] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
For example, the new strong tandem rig is more modern than the Sigma but it still uses a 3-ring release on the drogue.

my guess why the strong TNT still uses a 3ring drogue release is related to the KISS principle: Keep it simple sweetie (or keep it short & simple). its easy to inspect and more or less fool-proof and maintenance free.

also from what I have seen you can have some substantial wear on the drogue attachement of the sigma inside the chimney...

note: no. this is not brand wars, ok?


5.samadhi

Apr 26, 2012, 7:09 AM
Post #13 of 42 (3228 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

some risk for out of sequence deployment exists with sigma if the drogue release pin is not seated properly. To seat the pin, fit the pin into the closing pin, and then pull the handle that would deploy the main. This will seat the drogue release pin in the closing pin. Sometimes this is not necessary but sometimes it is very necessary.


5.samadhi

Apr 26, 2012, 7:15 AM
Post #14 of 42 (3223 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
OK, so I understand that SIGMA container is superior to other tandem containers in a way that if the main container opens, the drogue is automatically released
incorrect. Read my post above. The best you'd get when the main container opens would be partial drogue bridle released (and then hopefully? the drogue released from the BOC pouch). Whether or not the dbag would extract the drogue from the pouch would depend on the drag of the dbag and the force needed to pull the drogue. You could end up with the drogue being pulled or you could end up with a horseshoe.

The sigma is designed with the drogue release pin in place preventing (if the drogue release pin functions normally and not malfunctions as per my post above) the main container to open. If the drogue is pitched then the drogue release pin is pulled and allows for the main container to be opened when the time is right with the handle (on either side of the TI).


(This post was edited by 5.samadhi on Apr 26, 2012, 7:17 AM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Apr 26, 2012, 11:32 AM
Post #15 of 42 (3162 views)
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Re: [VTmotoMike08] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
Sigma drogue release. ... no one else uses it. For example, the new strong tandem rig is more modern than the Sigma but it still uses a 3-ring release on the drogue.

This differs from the 3-ring release on main risers.
"

............................................................................

Not by much.
Strong uses mini 3-rings on their drogue risers, but a large (size "0") on the bottom of their drogue bridle.

All the other tandem rigs use 3-Rings for drogue releases: later Vector 1, all Vector 2, Strong Dual Hawk, Parachutes de France, Racer, etc. The basic dimensions still come from Relative Workshop's 1998 manual on 3-Ring risers construction. The biggest difference is that most drogue releases have an extra grommet to accomodate a double-ended white loop and two release cables (similar the "Universal" cutaway system available on Studnet Dolphins).


theonlyski  (D License)

Apr 26, 2012, 11:34 AM
Post #16 of 42 (3157 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Precision's tandem rig also uses the 3 rings, FWIW.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Apr 26, 2012, 2:24 PM
Post #17 of 42 (3134 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Precision's tandem rig also uses the 3 rings, FWIW.

What rig is that?


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Apr 26, 2012, 2:42 PM
Post #18 of 42 (3126 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Precision's tandem rig also uses the 3 rings, FWIW.

What rig is that?

I don't think it's out yet, but a dude can't remember his name, stopped by our dz with it. It looks like a wings with vector parts sewn to it. Sigma for the win again. I don't get why people buy any other tandem rig brand new.


TheCaptain  (D License)

Apr 26, 2012, 2:57 PM
Post #19 of 42 (3120 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the Sigma rig is a really great rig and better than the Dual Hawk or Vector 2, but it still has it's own set of issues IMHO. Precalapsing the drogue in a bag lock situation there may not be enough drag to release the risers after a cutaway. Also the line used for release the main that is attached to the blue and orange golf ball shrinks, and over time will shrink enough to allow canopy deployment without pulling the handles (yes this is a wear item that needs to be monitored).
All that said I still like them better than the others IMHO


(This post was edited by TheCaptain on Apr 26, 2012, 3:00 PM)


theonlyski  (D License)

Apr 26, 2012, 4:24 PM
Post #20 of 42 (3101 views)
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Re: [dqpacker] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Precision's tandem rig also uses the 3 rings, FWIW.

What rig is that?

I don't think it's out yet, but a dude can't remember his name, stopped by our dz with it. It looks like a wings with vector parts sewn to it. Sigma for the win again. I don't get why people buy any other tandem rig brand new.

The TSO application just got filed for it... It looks like a Wings tandem rig would (anyone care to guess why? Wink).

Anyways, its a brand new system but I see no improvements that would warrant people even changing to them from SDH's, much less going from a SIGMA to them.


Dokeman  (D License)

Apr 26, 2012, 4:47 PM
Post #21 of 42 (3092 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

the sigmas do have there own issues.. I wish the golf ball strings were a little longer to account for shrinkage and the bungee a little stronger. The golf balls don't always retract all the way and I get worried about the them snagging on the 3rd loop of the toggles during aggressive turns.


VTmotoMike08  (D 30399)

Apr 26, 2012, 4:51 PM
Post #22 of 42 (3090 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
the new strong tandem rig is more modern than the Sigma

In what way?

In reply to:
This differs from the 3-ring release on main risers. Although it was invented by Bill Booth, all containers now use it, but I bet there is an agreement in place and some royalties paid. So is UPT not licensing the drogue chimney design to anyone else but is okay with the 3-ring patent being used by all?

The 3-ring patent expired approximately 13 years ago (20 years after its invention). I believe, Bill Booth had been charging other manufacturers 6 dollars for every rig using the 3-ring release system (1 dollar for every ring). I am talking about solo rigs, not sure about the tandem drouge release 3-rings.


Its more modern in that it has been on the market for less time and is a newer product. Sorry if it was unclear.

So is that how patents work? 20 years and anyone can use it without royalties? I don't know when the Sigma came out, but so is it then possible that other companies could use the drogue chimney design after the patent expires?


theonlyski  (D License)

Apr 26, 2012, 4:51 PM
Post #23 of 42 (3090 views)
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Re: [Dokeman] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the sigmas do have there own issues.. I wish the golf ball strings were a little longer to account for shrinkage and the bungee a little stronger. The golf balls don't always retract all the way and I get worried about the them snagging on the 3rd loop of the toggles during aggressive turns.

So, because the golf ball lines are too short, they wont always retract, you think there's better out there?

IMO, nothing is perfect, but the SIGMA is the best we have (that I know of) and I look forward to the day when I can say that about a new rig.


(This post was edited by theonlyski on Apr 26, 2012, 4:58 PM)


Dokeman  (D License)

Apr 26, 2012, 5:25 PM
Post #24 of 42 (3082 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So, because the golf ball lines are too short, they wont always retract, you think there's better out there?

Absolutely not, i just sigmas everyday!! They rock


dirtbox  (D 31759)

Apr 26, 2012, 9:30 PM
Post #25 of 42 (3042 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] SIGMA rig: premature container opening questions [In reply to] Can't Post

I want to learn more about the Precision tandem rig... stays closed even if the loop is snapped and the reserve clears the dorgue apparently Shocked

2c from a kid half way through the Sigma course...Crazy


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