Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Photography and Video:
GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs?

 

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5.samadhi

Apr 23, 2012, 9:24 AM
Post #1 of 38 (2228 views)
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GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? Can't Post

I have heard through the grapevine some DZs around are doing tandem vid and stills with gopro 2. Has anybody heard about this being done and are they able to get good quality stills for the customer? I have never seen any actual stills printed or on file from this camera so I dunno if it would be quality enough? Surely it would be quality enough for a facebook pic or something like that but actually printed out on photo paper how would it fare???

Just curious... Smile


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Apr 23, 2012, 9:27 AM
Post #2 of 38 (2210 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

The GoPro captures perfect stills for web display.
The GoPro blows for anything intended for print. It's oversaturated for paper, it's under resolved for paper (larger than 5x7).


5.samadhi

Apr 23, 2012, 9:31 AM
Post #3 of 38 (2208 views)
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Re: [DSE] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

so you're saying it would work for an operation selling tandem vid/stills on DVD but it would really suck if they were offering to print out photos for the customer?

Many DZs I have seen offering 'stills' give the customer the stills on file and thats that.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Apr 23, 2012, 9:37 AM
Post #4 of 38 (2201 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe (perhaps wrongfully) that customers want to be able to print their photos, regardless of what format in which they're delivered.
Me...I'd be embarrassed to be delivering "professional" quality flying with significantly less than professional quality resolution/colorspace. YMMV.


5.samadhi

Apr 23, 2012, 9:42 AM
Post #5 of 38 (2199 views)
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Re: [DSE] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with you...there's something very sad in the thought of a customer getting home with their pic files and going out to a photo or copy center and getting their pics printed out on high quality photo paper...and then seeing the photo has shitty resolution and the colors are off...

Unsure


dragon2  (D 101989)

Apr 23, 2012, 9:43 AM
Post #6 of 38 (2196 views)
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Re: [DSE] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I believe (perhaps wrongfully) that customers want to be able to print their photos, regardless of what format in which they're delivered.
Me...I'd be embarrassed to be delivering "professional" quality flying with significantly less than professional quality resolution/colorspace. YMMV.

+1


jtval  (D 26340)

Apr 23, 2012, 12:36 PM
Post #7 of 38 (2138 views)
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Re: [dragon2] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Doug,
I wish more people had your integrity when it came to vid/stills.


Dokeman  (D License)

Apr 23, 2012, 12:52 PM
Post #8 of 38 (2130 views)
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Re: [jtval] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have printed several pics from gopros. Most of the ones I have printed were from the older 5mp gopros. Since then I have upgraded to the hero2 and they look even better. All printed 8x10 and al look great.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Apr 23, 2012, 1:28 PM
Post #9 of 38 (2111 views)
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Re: [Dokeman] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have printed several pics from gopros. Most of the ones I have printed were from the older 5mp gopros. Since then I have upgraded to the hero2 and they look even better. All printed 8x10 and al look great.

Unfortunately, so many people measurebate with megapixel values.
Compression and lens are far, far (add as many "fars" in there as you can) and those factors are much more significant than megapixels.
Having a Hero2 (and a few RePlays, Contours, OregonScientific, Pivothead, Epic, Atom/Muvi, Tachyon, VIo, and pretty much every other small-format camera out there...they all blow for stills (IMO)
The NEX7, Canon G10/11's are great, the small kodaks, and even new Cybershots with wireless remote are about the same weight/size, and take much better pix, even though they're not bulletproofed enough for tandem work on a busy DZ (again, my opinion).
Additionally, I personally hate the look of 180 lenses on tandems and most other vids. I'm sponsored by a couple small camera companies, but I'm more interested in providing a quality product and using the small cams for b-roll.


Dokeman  (D License)

Apr 23, 2012, 2:00 PM
Post #10 of 38 (2101 views)
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Re: [DSE] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

opinions do vary. Since they are everywhere, Im sure you could borrow one if you don't already have one. Print one out and see if you like it. We have about 20 or so 8x10 prints hanging on the wall and people buy the shit out them. We just give the files on a disk. Prints are just samples for people to see. Not one person has ever said they were not good enough. And we have a satisfaction guarantee on vids/stills. Besides, I'm sure we can all agree, its more the photographer skills, not the camera there using or how many pictures there getting.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 23, 2012, 4:09 PM
Post #11 of 38 (2067 views)
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Re: [Dokeman] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
We have about 20 or so 8x10 prints hanging on the wall and people buy the shit out them. We just give the files on a disk. Prints are just samples for people to see. Not one person has ever said they were not good enough.

Not one of those people was aware that better cameras can be used for skydiving. As far as they know, the stills you display are the best available, and they can buy those or none at all. What do you think would happen if you also posted 8X10s from an SLR, and let the customer choose which ones they wanted for their money?

Quote:
its more the photographer skills, not the camera there using or how many pictures there getting.

Up to a point. Equipment does have limitations, and with a tiny little lens and a huge field of view, even the best photographer can only do so much. I would never suggest that everyone needs to be jumping a $2000 SLR with a $1000 lens, but given the price point of a Cannon Rebel with a kit lens, I don't think that's an unreasonable standard. You can buy them used for the price of a GoPro, or new for not too much more.

It all comes down to ingetrity. You are the 'experts' in the eyes of your customers, and they are counting on your expertise to provide them with the best possible experience for their skydiving dollar. With the price difference between a GoPro and a basic SLR being no more than you can earn in a 1/2 day of jumping the camera, there is just no excuse for short-changing the customer like that.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Apr 23, 2012, 4:11 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Apr 23, 2012, 5:03 PM
Post #12 of 38 (2049 views)
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Re: [Dokeman] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm guessing you didn't read my post above; most of the small format cameras are in my toolbox.
Of course you're correct; opinions vary. In my opinion, I wouldn't be comfortable selling/giving stills from a small format camera (like the GoPro) and selling it as anything but a photo from a cell phone and calling them 'printable' (same sensor/imagers and similar codec).

If real quality isn't part of the conversation, sure...small format camera stills are terrific for the web.

Attached are two files, both scaled to the same size.
One is from the GoPro2, the other from an older t2i, on the same jump, both shooting stills.
Some folks are great with the lower quality, others aren't.
Some folks are happy delivering screengrabs from small format cameras too.

If customers can see "real" photos next to cellphone/GoPro photos, I'd submit they'd take real photos if given the opportunity. _My_ preference is to give people the highest quality that is reasonably afforded to produce. It also provides a small cushion of value separation from the guy with 30 jumps and a GoPro on his head set to capture a photo every 2 seconds.

This is where the conversation varies on the topic of "professional," and I entirely agree; it's quite subjective.
Attachments: GoPro.jpg (168 KB)
  t2i.jpg (124 KB)


Dokeman  (D License)

Apr 23, 2012, 6:01 PM
Post #13 of 38 (2033 views)
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Re: [DSE] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Not one of those people was aware that better cameras can be used for skydiving

Thats like saying the guy with 500 jumps shouldn't do video because there is someone here with 5000 jumps who can do it better.



Quote:
Attached are two files, both scaled to the same size.
One is from the GoPro2, the other from an older t2i, on the same jump, both shooting stills.

Your comparison is great if we start printing pics with a zoomed in square in the corner to show how good our camera is. Remove the zoomed in section from the bottom, and the pic looks exactly the same to me. The colors are the same, the text from his wings look the same, and the ground looks the same, and the tape across the helmet looks the same.

DSE, you post a lot of very helpful, useful stuff. But i think comparing a gopro to a cell phone is a little far fetched.

Besides, I bet less than 1% of customers actually print there pics anymore. Its all face Facebook/email. The GP pics are great for that, because they don't need resizing before digital sharing.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 23, 2012, 6:21 PM
Post #14 of 38 (2025 views)
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Re: [Dokeman] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Quote
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Not one of those people was aware that better cameras can be used for skydiving

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Thats like saying the guy with 500 jumps shouldn't do video because there is someone here with 5000 jumps who can do it better.

Not in the least. It takes years and tens of thousands of dollars to go from 500 jumps to 5000 jumps.

In comparison to buying a GoPro, it takes the same amount of time, and another $150 to upgrade to a Rebel w/ kit lens. Big difference from making 4500 jumps.

The point is that if you're being paid to jump, you should make the best 'reasonable' choice possible. Given that a somewhat busy video guy can make enough to outright pay for the SLR in one weekend, there simply is no excuse to cheap out and use a GoPro.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Apr 23, 2012, 6:22 PM)


bodypilot90  (D 24249)

Apr 23, 2012, 6:32 PM
Post #15 of 38 (2015 views)
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Re: [Dokeman] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've to agree with you. Never heard a complaint from the gopro. I am upgrading to cx150 or a cx210. I'll use the gopro if i grab the cx150. and use the 210 for stills and video for a bit. until I can get a still camera.


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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Apr 23, 2012, 8:27 PM
Post #16 of 38 (1993 views)
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Re: [Dokeman] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can see night and day difference between a kit lens on an slr and a good lens. The go pro quality is clearly worse. We print out one still for every customer ( they love that and it sells more ) and I would wince When just looking at photos that came from someone shooting with just the kit lens. You can see the blurriness in the print easily. And the go pro is even worse quality. When you can get a good camera for the price of a go pro, i don't get why you would to the worse option. Plus you can take a ton more picture with the slr.

Our dropzone would not allow anyone working in the video rotation to use a go pro for sure. And I would suspect that the vast majority of larger dropzones would say the same. I think where they would get the most use is handycam dropzones because you don't have much of a choice if you want stills.

And I do think people still print at least one out to hang on their wall.


Zymurdoo  (D 16833)

Apr 23, 2012, 9:25 PM
Post #17 of 38 (1974 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

After a TI arrived at our DZ with a double Go-Pro handicam set up, I have been essentially out of work. Our newest TI addition has shown the DZO the wonders of grabbing stills from the video so only one Go-Pro is necessary. Wahoo!

I am so glad I have spent thousands of dollars getting to where I am today, only to see the crap we are sending out on a daily basis.

At least I was able to recoup my expenses for my latest camera set-up. The fact that I also have a "real" job doesn't hurt either.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Apr 23, 2012, 9:54 PM
Post #18 of 38 (1963 views)
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Re: [Dokeman] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
DSE, you post a lot of very helpful, useful stuff. But i think comparing a gopro to a cell phone is a little far fetched

They're actually quite similar, in size and compression. Hero2 uses the Cineform codec that helps, but still isn't remotely the same as AVCHD at 18mpbs.

If you feel the T2i matches the GoPro...wow. The two images are identically compressed for comparative value, and from my side there is a significant difference between the two.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Visually, technically, and practically, small format cameras (for stills) don't begin to approach what any reasonable person would call "quality" or "professional" in my (and industry) view.


soulbabel

Apr 24, 2012, 1:58 AM
Post #19 of 38 (1928 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought about it a few weeks ago to lighten up the helmet load, and then I saw this video where the guy gives a good critique of the hero2 stills quality. In the end, I went with the Sony NEX-5n, because a paying customer deservers better quality than a GoPro photo. Have a t2i w/ 10-22mm lens right now, still need to do the mods for the NEX.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzektEfL-nw


Skydive2  (D 24800)

Apr 25, 2012, 11:31 AM
Post #20 of 38 (1785 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

if your not selling handcam with video and/or stills your 2 years behind Wink


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Apr 25, 2012, 12:06 PM
Post #21 of 38 (1774 views)
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Re: [Skydive2] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

if you're not delivering on thumbdrives and HD you're two years behind.TongueWink


hallux  (C License)

Apr 25, 2012, 12:41 PM
Post #22 of 38 (1767 views)
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Re: [DSE] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

thumb drive is the only way to go. HOw bout spending the money on a still set up and shooting video with the GoPro? Thats more than good enough for web distribution, which most people use anyway. And then you can print high quality stills to hang on the wall. All while still saving your neck and protecting your longevity in the sport and future health. there is a point where you need to draw the line with how much you are willing to provide for the 100 bucks they are paying, most of which you arent getting in your pocket. They should get adequate documentation without you risking your health.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Apr 25, 2012, 12:56 PM
Post #23 of 38 (1760 views)
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Re: [DSE] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Spot, where are the best deals for thumb dives?

How much would someone pay for lots of say 1000?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Apr 25, 2012, 1:00 PM
Post #24 of 38 (1759 views)
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Re: [hallux] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

If it's a GoPro Hero2 and has an external mic on it, and if it's on the head of skilled flyer, and if he's able to get the tandem to land exactly where he lands every time and if the dropzone has a computer system configured for highspeed turnaround of AVC vs AVCHD, and if...a few other things...then the GP2 is fine.

The 180 lens on this camera requires very close flying. If the tandem isn't landing really close to the videographer, then the landing looks as though it's a mile away and it might as well be a stock footage landing.
Audio on the GP2 blows too, but with a good external mic, it's quite nice.

Face it, the video camera (like the CX100) don't weigh much at all. Stills are the weight due to quality glass. Glass isn't ever going to get cheaper, but we are starting to see some smaller format still cams (like the nEX series and Canon Gseries) that do a terrific job with less lens. But still heavier than a CX, which isn't a whole lot heavier than the GP.

The weight argument holds a lot of water when we're talking older DV cams and older, clunky stills.

I (personally) have a difficult time with that argument as relates to today's cameras.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 25, 2012, 1:05 PM
Post #25 of 38 (1758 views)
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Re: [Dokeman] GoPro Hero2 for tandem stills??? is this being done at DZs? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Besides, I bet less than 1% of customers actually print there pics anymore. Its all face Facebook/email. The GP pics are great for that, because they don't need resizing before digital sharing.

Crazy

people watch that video a LOT for a short time period then hardly ever

BUT - that one great still, they blow it up and it's on their wall for all time. In the end, the one skydive customer will value that still more than any other part for his memories. You can't short change the stills.


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