Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
Thank you - You just helped without knowing

 


zeolite

Apr 23, 2012, 1:37 PM
Post #1 of 21 (1333 views)
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Thank you - You just helped without knowing Can't Post

Well, before I thank you all, I would like to introduce myself first.

I'm from Iceland, currently living in USA (Virginia Beach) Which is also the reason why I am considering skydiving. It's both warmer and a lot cheaper :)

I've never been a fan of throwing myself out of a plane. To be honest, I always thought people that did it, must have a death wish.

I've spent 2 days on the internet watching videos of failed parachutes and accidents. Reading 101 guides and then I stumble on this forum which completely answered a lot of my questions. The human side of this all.

My approach is usually (not always) to study what can go wrong before everything can go right.

I'm an advanced diver(which is considered dangerous), Dirt bikes(which is considered dangerous) and have a street motorcycle(which is considered dangerous). They all have FAR more accidents and deaths. I rely on safety gear in all those sports.

All these things are far more dangerous statistic wise. People die in cars, on motorcycles, planes every day

But when the story hits the media with skydiving accidents, you think differently about them because they are rare.

I'm not saying that it's not deadly like airplanes, cars, motorcycles, lawn mowers, lawyers, ex girlfriend, clubs, walking, elevators, bad weather, bicycle, roller blades, writing an email leaning back on your office chair, food and drugs.

You all know this of course, I'm the new one :) What I am thanking you for is simple. After I got to learn from you all sitting on my ass (not jumping) in front of a computer, you made me realize that we usually always depend on our gear.

So what's the difference right? Being alive and happy before it brakes? You made me look at it differently. I want this now, I need it!

I signed up for AFF at Skydive Suffolk next week and I can't wait to meet you all. By learning and appreciating life better.

Don't get my wrong, I'm very careful, never foolish in that kind of situation and I know accidents and death may be knocking on the door. But seeing your faces, it's worth living it first? I mean... you all look so alive after a jump!

"A life lived in fear is a life half lived."


skydiverbry  (D License)

Apr 23, 2012, 1:55 PM
Post #2 of 21 (1296 views)
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Re: [zeolite] Thank you - You just helped without knowing [In reply to] Can't Post

Good luck at your new adventure and enjoyCool




Bry


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Apr 23, 2012, 1:58 PM
Post #3 of 21 (1289 views)
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Re: [zeolite] Thank you - You just helped without knowing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I always thought people that did it, must have a death wish
Back when I started jumping, if you jumped out of a plane, you had to actively do something to save your life -- if you didn't pull, you were dead (after your first few student jumps).

To me, that's the opposite of a death wish. With a death wish, you do very risky stuff, relying entirely on luck to save you. It's copping out.

Nope, if we wanted to die, it'd be easy, on any jump. But we don't. It's another way of living, like hte bike (I also have one), diving (just a rec diver here), skiiing, or anything else.

Wendy P.


D22369  (D 22369)

Apr 23, 2012, 5:53 PM
Post #4 of 21 (1138 views)
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Re: [zeolite] Thank you - You just helped without knowing [In reply to] Can't Post

welcomeSmile
make sure you get video, you will wear that cd out and yes your friends will get to a point that they wont wanna watch it again Tongue


Roy

Ps: after the jump come back and tell us if it was everything you thought it would be


JasonYergin  (C 40641)

Apr 23, 2012, 8:55 PM
Post #5 of 21 (1051 views)
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Re: [zeolite] Thank you - You just helped without knowing [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, and thanks to you too. I've been telling people the same thing about cars and bikes being more dangerous since I started jumping but I'm pretty sure most people don't buy it.

I know it for a fact though, because I've ridden dirt bikes for over 20 years and ride a street bike pretty regularly now days. It is SO easy to get hit by careless motorists and in fact I'm pretty sure it's not a matter of if you'll get hit but when you'll get hit if you don't watch out for them.

Cars have pretty much always been statistically more dangerous than flying in planes too or at least that's what you always hear so I'm with ya. Jumping is about living and loving life while we have it not tempting fate or wishing to die.


strop45  (D 957)

Apr 23, 2012, 11:58 PM
Post #6 of 21 (1008 views)
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Re: [JasonYergin] Thank you - You just helped without knowing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yeah, and thanks to you too. I've been telling people the same thing about cars and bikes being more dangerous since I started jumping but I'm pretty sure most people don't buy it
That's because its mostly not true. IMO/reading of the stats, if you spend a day driving a car, your risk of serious harm or death is much lower than a day at the DZ where you do 5 jumps. A day on a motorbikes and a day at the DZ are probably about the same risk.

The statistics concerning flying and driving are based around multi engine commercial planes with 2 pilots, not skydiving jump planes.

Put another way if everyone spend the same amount of time skydiving as driving in a car, the death rate would increase much more than twice.


JasonYergin  (C 40641)

Apr 24, 2012, 6:32 AM
Post #7 of 21 (938 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Yeah, and thanks to you too. I've been telling people the same thing about cars and bikes being more dangerous since I started jumping but I'm pretty sure most people don't buy it
That's because its mostly not true....

Put another way if everyone spend the same amount of time skydiving as driving in a car, the death rate would increase much more than twice.

You might be right and I'm not gonna sit here and argue it to death as if I'm an expert on the subject, but I do think if skydiving went up that much even more safety measures would come to be and things would advance at a much faster rate. We take at least a thousand things for granted in driving and riding motorcycles that could kill us and indeed we've moved beyond the dangers for the most part. You can't account for everything though.

For my part I've been surprised at how safe skydiving is in this day and age. Yes, one little mistake can certainly kill you with a quickness and I won't deny that. What I'd like people to take away from this conversation, especially non-jumpers or brand new ones, is that the sport might not be what they imagined and it's not like 92% life threatening. It's awesome, cool, fun, exhilarating, eye-opening, a little scary and many other things but it's not totally insane or death wishful.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 24, 2012, 7:19 AM
Post #8 of 21 (910 views)
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Re: [JasonYergin] Thank you - You just helped without knowing [In reply to] Can't Post

>I've been telling people the same thing about cars and bikes being more
>dangerous since I started jumping but I'm pretty sure most people don't
>buy it.

That's because they're not. (At least cars and bicycles aren't; haven't done the math on a motorcycle yet.)

>Cars have pretty much always been statistically more dangerous than
>flying in planes too or at least that's what you always hear so I'm with ya.

Also not true. (Cars you drive vs. general aviation at least.) The sky is pretty unforgiving.

However it can be easy to think that. Just compare the number of skydivers killed vs the number of drivers killed. It's no contest! Drivers seem to be dying by the thousands, whereas even 80 people a year killed skydiving is unusual. But that's because people drive more.

For a very simple way to think about this, talk to someone who has been in the sport for 20 years. Ask them how many of their skydiving friends have been killed skydiving vs. driving.


JasonYergin  (C 40641)

Apr 24, 2012, 8:40 AM
Post #9 of 21 (863 views)
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Re: [billvon] Thank you - You just helped without knowing [In reply to] Can't Post

You can't make a good call on this or anything with asking about one persons experience, and I certainly don't mean any disrespect to a veteran jumper who has lost a lot of friends to this sport as I've lost way too many friends in the 4 services to Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's about percentages. Example: many, many more Sailors get DUI's each year than do Marines. That's looking at the raw numbers but if you look at the percent of Marines that get DUI's they are about the same as the Sailors. The Marine Corps is just a much smaller branch than the Navy so looking at the raw numbers paints an incorrect picture.

If you could find the total number of drivers, motorcyclists and cyclists then find the percentage of fatalities from that group in a year then you could do a comparison of that data to the percentage of jumper fatalities gathered from what the USPA publishes each year. Short of that how can you make the call either way?

Either we can agree to disagree or continue with this digital equivalent of puffing up our chests and seeing which one of us can yell the loudest. I think I'll keep with my stance until I'm legitimately proven otherwise though.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Apr 24, 2012, 8:50 AM
Post #10 of 21 (848 views)
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Re: [JasonYergin] Thank you - You just helped without knowing [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is a post that references some actual numbers. It's not like this hasn't been discussed before.

Skydiving is not safe. It really isn't. It requires greater fast reactions sooner in most skydivers' careers than driving does. I've heard a number that skydiving carries a relative risk of driving 1000 miles (which is at least in the same rough order of magnitude as 17 skydives to 10000 jumps) and of 3000 miles (which doesn't).

Either way, while neither is safe, I'll trust that skydiving is an acceptable risk for a smaller percentage of the population.

Wendy P.


zeolite

Apr 24, 2012, 9:05 AM
Post #11 of 21 (840 views)
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Re: [billvon] Thank you - You just helped without knowing [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you all for your replies.

What would you say is the golden rule to know? I mean, are there more deaths by skydiving because of recklessness or just plain bad luck? Or is it because people are getting too reckless and pack their parachute faster than they should?

We all get reckless. The knowledge for me is knowing reckless in this sport (like in any other sport) to prevent serious injury or death.

If you have time (I know I get answers from the class) maybe you could spare me some advices.

Is it true that you always cut off the main for reserve if any tiny glitch/problem is noticed, or only very obvious life threatening situation? Will the experience tell me otherwise?

Do you try to get yourself out of spin before cutting the main from yourself or if high enough, you try to spin yourself out of it if possible? And if that does not work cut loose? Any videos I could study to show different tangle situations?

Could you tell me what to read, what to learn before I take my first AFF class? Like common rookie mistakes. I want to be 100% prepared and have my FAQ bank filled up.

Anything you could tell me is appreciated :)


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Apr 24, 2012, 9:11 AM
Post #12 of 21 (834 views)
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Re: [zeolite] Thank you - You just helped without knowing [In reply to] Can't Post

The golden rule is to understand what you're doing. Not the cool part, but to think about and take into account at least 2 levels of consequence for your actions.

Don't substitute expectation of luck for required skill. It might mean not doing something that looks cool at the moment, but if you're ready for those 2 levels of things to go wrong, then you're at least somewhat ready for something else to go wrong as well.

And don't ever think you're too good to make any mistake. There are experienced videographers who have gotten on the plane without rigs. There are experienced swoopers who have lost toggles or risers. There are experienced tandem masters who were unable to pull their reserve ripcords.

No one is too smart to make "certain" mistakes. So understand what can happen on each specific jump; the thought will help you plan for the eventualities that you hope don't happen.

Wendy P.


zeolite

Apr 24, 2012, 9:58 AM
Post #13 of 21 (814 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Thank you - You just helped without knowing [In reply to] Can't Post

IS the Cypress AAD and Skyhook the same thing? Or I mean, do you wear one or both at all times?

I've been watching this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saqITkGLPz8&feature=related

Why are there not 2 reserves in a pack instead of one? Dum question?


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Apr 24, 2012, 10:13 AM
Post #14 of 21 (806 views)
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Re: [zeolite] Thank you - You just helped without knowing [In reply to] Can't Post

Your questions are good, and a really good example of why hanging around the DZ and just taking in information is a good idea.

Cypres and Skyhook (and RSL) are all different from each other, and the evolution of skydiving (1930's barnstormers didn't use reserves at all) only brought about a single reserve. Note that additional reserves could add complexity, and complexity adds additional failure modes and the need for understanding.

But hang out at the DZ, drink their beer, and buy some to share. You'll learn a whole lot, from people who can point things out to you, rather than just asking you to imagine.

Wendy P.


(This post was edited by wmw999 on Apr 24, 2012, 10:13 AM)


zeolite

Apr 24, 2012, 10:26 AM
Post #15 of 21 (793 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Thank you - You just helped without knowing [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you, I will do that.

I will post some updates after the jump :)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Apr 24, 2012, 10:27 AM
Post #16 of 21 (791 views)
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Re: [billvon] Thank you - You just helped without knowing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...someone who has been in the sport for 20 years. Ask them how many of their skydiving friends have been killed skydiving vs. driving.

18 years in. In 20 years (actually even a bit longer ago, but I will count it here for this purpose) I have experienced 1 person close to me, die in an auto accident. I'm probably lucky, and maybe even unusual in such an absolute low # in this category. - That notwithstanding, during this same time period (less, actually) - I am already moving off my second-hand in fingers to count, and moved on to my toes to track the same in skydiving. Frown

Just to answer your post/question quite directly for illustration is all Bill. FWIW.


zeolite

Apr 24, 2012, 10:45 AM
Post #17 of 21 (782 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Thank you - You just helped without knowing [In reply to] Can't Post

So you lost over 10 people in parachute jumping in 20 years.

May I ask you this and I totally understand if you don't want to answer this.

Are those deaths mostly back in the days when gear was not as reliable. Was it stunts or just plain "bad luck"

Thank you for taking the time to answer me.


Ron

Apr 24, 2012, 12:07 PM
Post #18 of 21 (740 views)
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Re: [JasonYergin] Thank you - You just helped without knowing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I think I'll keep with my stance until I'm legitimately proven otherwise though.

You have to compare the activities in the same way....

If you use raw number of deaths.... Driving has WAY more deaths than skydiving. But then again we have a sample error since more people drive than skydive and you can't use that as a comparison.

We could look at exposure time. The drive out to the DZ takes me 1:20. That would be like making ~10 jumps (1 min freefall and 5mins under canopy). Now you need to factor in what TYPE of driving and compare to the TYPE of skydive. Driving on a deserted road is much more safe than driving through Atlanta. A solo jump is more safe than a 400 way.

You could also use number of participants and compare to the number of deaths.... This actually gives the best result since it takes into all the factors. The USPA has about 30K members and about 30 people die each year. So about 1 in 1,000 participants will die. If that was the same with driving.... 306,700 would have died in 2009.

For 2009 33,808 people died in the traffic accidents in the US. The US population was 306,700,000... So 0.000110737% of the population died.

* Yes, I know I am using total population vs people who skydive. Even people without a DL ride in cars. And I know I am not counting people who just did the one tandem since simply I don't have those numbers.

When you use the same type of numbers.... Skydiving is WAY more dangerous than most other activities.

It is a very common tactic/habit for new jumpers to try to make "Skydiving is safer than "X"" claims. Most times they are not correct from a statistics standpoint.


zeolite

Apr 24, 2012, 12:13 PM
Post #19 of 21 (733 views)
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Re: [Ron] Thank you - You just helped without knowing [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you Ron!

It is a very common tactic/habit for new jumpers to try to make "Skydiving is safer than "X"" claims. Most times they are not correct from a statistics standpoint.

I totally agree with you there. I am convincing myself of the fact that this is safer for me and feel happy about it. I am still going to jump.

Thank you for taking your time and effort into this calculations and I hope to meet the most of you to learn from.

Safe jumping, zeolite


dontlikemustard  (B License)

Apr 24, 2012, 5:55 PM
Post #20 of 21 (676 views)
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Re: [zeolite] Thank you - You just helped without knowing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thank you Ron!

It is a very common tactic/habit for new jumpers to try to make "Skydiving is safer than "X"" claims. Most times they are not correct from a statistics standpoint.

I totally agree with you there. I am convincing myself of the fact that this is safer for me and feel happy about it. I am still going to jump.

Thank you for taking your time and effort into this calculations and I hope to meet the most of you to learn from.

Safe jumping, zeolite

I remember before my first jump I used to think of my safety in this sport using statistics too. Its important to understand that while you can't bring your chances of dying down to 0, you can definitely lower the odds of dying or getting injured by being safe and having the proper attitude.

I came to that realization the second my canopy opened on my AFF1 jump, skydiving is not like playing russian roulette, your actions and attitude have a lot more say about how long you will last in this sport, than some website with a bunch of numbers.

The problem with looking at statistics is that they put the personality of a skydiver out of the equation. So please don't think of every jump as rolling a dice, as it gives off a false sense of reality, one where you are not in control of your own fate - that simply is not true, even when jumping out of a plane.


MariusM

Apr 25, 2012, 12:52 AM
Post #21 of 21 (626 views)
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Re: [zeolite] Thank you - You just helped without knowing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Could you tell me what to read, what to learn before I take my first AFF class? Like common rookie mistakes. I want to be 100% prepared and have my FAQ bank filled up.

Anything you could tell me is appreciated :)

First, I'm not an instructor so please be sceptical about anything I'll say here. You are saying you want to be 100% prepared. I can suggest you'd rather keep your mind open and don't read too much on the internet before starting AFF. I.e., it might help you if your learning starts at class, not before. The reason is quite simple: there will be things you'll think you understood when reading, but you might understand them in totaly different way. It's always better to ask instructor face to face. Later you'll find that their answers sometimes can differ from dz.com :)



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