Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Canopy Relative Work:
Has the Lightning any advantage at all?

 


morris

Apr 23, 2012, 8:38 AM
Post #1 of 13 (2283 views)
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Has the Lightning any advantage at all? Can't Post

Beside the fact that there are so many of em around?

We got Storms for CRW and Im far from being an expert, but to me the wing is very superior in every aspect. Am I missing anything??
If Im behind and lower (a single canopy) I can still dock on the guy who is in front of me AND higher, closing the gap with rearrisers, closing in on my target like Id be in an elevator.
I dont think that this is possible with Lightnings, or is it?
Been told that if Im low and behind (under a Lightning) to switch roles, dont have to - under a Storm.
If it comes to Frontriserinputs it seemed to me like Lightnings would first of all react by an increased descentrate and not generate that much additional horizontalspeed. Do you guys agree with those observations?
For what reason but a lower overall descentrate should someone love/perfer flying a Lightning? I dont get it, please help me out...


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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Apr 23, 2012, 8:17 PM
Post #2 of 13 (2170 views)
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Re: [morris] Has the Lightning any advantage at all? [In reply to] Can't Post

The reason the Storm has so much rear riser recovery is because it has such an insanely steep angle of attack. You can use the rears the same way on the lightning, but it won't go up as fast because the attack angle isn't as steep to begin with.

Storms have such a high descent rate they wouldn't work very well for big ways because your working time would be so short. And, I know others who think the opposite, but I find the lightning far easier to land than the storm.

As for descent rate - a little bit of front risers on a lightning will make you drive horizontally faster, deeper front risers will make you sink. And the front riser pressure on lightnings is way way lighter than on the storm.

The rapid rear riser ascent can definitely help you if you screw up and end up low and behind. Proper response is don't screw up and end up there :).

The openings were the only thing I preferred about the storm over the lightning. But I'm manly a big way person, and a small way person, but the competition teams all seem to like storms so there must be a reason. I've got 8000 jumps, a really large number on small 7-cells and a thousand on 75-85 square foot ellipticals. I almost never fall down on landing. Of my half dozen jumps on the storm 97 the best I managed to pull off was just going down to a knee. To this day I don't have a clue what the trick is to get any kind of flare out of it.


morris

Apr 24, 2012, 8:01 AM
Post #3 of 13 (2132 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Has the Lightning any advantage at all? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
The reason the Storm has so much rear riser recovery is because it has such an insanely steep angle of attack. You can use the rears the same way on the lightning, but it won't go up as fast because the attack angle isn't as steep to begin with.
I know...

Quote:
Storms have such a high descent rate they wouldn't work very well for big ways because your working time would be so short.
I knew as well...
Quote:
And, I know others who think the opposite, but I find the lightning far easier to land than the storm.
I dont agree with that - but for a reason. We are not jumping the CF Storms. Instead, we got "regular" Storms and have those equipped with dacron 600 lines and the so called "CF-kit" that gives you the retractable POD/bridle/handdeploy - and those flare very(!) well!

Quote:
As for descent rate - a little bit of front risers on a lightning will make you drive horizontally faster, deeper front risers will make you sink. And the front riser pressure on lightnings is way way lighter than on the storm.
Thats good to know...!

Quote:
The rapid rear riser ascent can definitely help you if you screw up and end up low and behind. Proper response is don't screw up and end up there :).
But nice to have some kind of "reserve"...


Madison  (D 25271)

Apr 24, 2012, 12:15 PM
Post #4 of 13 (2095 views)
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Re: [morris] Has the Lightning any advantage at all? [In reply to] Can't Post

"For what reason but a lower overall descentrate should someone love/perfer flying a Lightning? I dont get it, please help me out... " AND "We got Storms for CRW and Im far from being an expert, but to me the wing is very superior in every aspect. Am I missing anything??
Quote:

The Lightning has a quicker recovery than the storm when it gets in a whirley, wrap, etc.
~It will reinflate quicker than the Storm.

So I don't consider your Storm a superior wing in every aspect. It's CRW, you want your wing to reinflate ASAP.

I think high descent rate with slower reinflation is not what one is looking for in a CRW canopy.
That being said, lots of CRW people love em, these have just been my findings


(This post was edited by Madison on Apr 24, 2012, 3:29 PM)


Baksteen  (C 708753)

May 8, 2012, 10:40 PM
Post #5 of 13 (1873 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Has the Lightning any advantage at all? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Storms have such a high descent rate they wouldn't work very well for big ways because your working time would be so short. And, I know others who think the opposite, but I find the lightning far easier to land than the storm.

Couldn't you just use a larger canopy then? I mean, the WL would be lower, but so would the descent rate. Or am I oversimplifying?

In reply to:
Of my half dozen jumps on the storm 97 the best I managed to pull off was just going down to a knee. To this day I don't have a clue what the trick is to get any kind of flare out of it.
I have not jumped anything smaller than a 160, which is exciting enough for me at 1.4-1.5.

I jump a Storm 190 for freefaal and a Lightning 176/160 for CF. I can land all three canopies reasonably well without any kind of speed inducing manoeuvres, though with the Lightnings I have the feeling that there is relatively little margin in the timing of when to place my foot. The Sotrm on the other hand has awesome flare power, most of which is in the last stages of the flare.


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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May 9, 2012, 5:49 AM
Post #6 of 13 (1858 views)
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Re: [Baksteen] Has the Lightning any advantage at all? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have heard the crw storms land better than the Freefall storms.

A few years ago when storms first came out, a friend had a demo Freefall storm 170. She was loading it at about .8. I tried to go up with her on my Lightning loaded at 1.4. I couldn't stay down with her. She fell out of the sky so fast that even at that light wing-loading compared to mine I couldn't catch her descent rate.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

May 16, 2012, 7:42 PM
Post #7 of 13 (1619 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Has the Lightning any advantage at all? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm by no means a CRW guy but I've jumped a regular Storm on demo for 5 or so jumps, didn't strike me as any steeper than anything else in the market (somewhere between a Sabre 2 and a Spectre) and the flare was great, no problem with landings. Never jumped a Lightning so can't compare.


GobbleGobble  (D 32887)

May 16, 2012, 7:55 PM
Post #8 of 13 (1611 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] Has the Lightning any advantage at all? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm by no means a CRW guy but I've jumped a regular Storm on demo for 5 or so jumps, didn't strike me as any steeper than anything else in the market (somewhere between a Sabre 2 and a Spectre) and the flare was great, no problem with landings. Never jumped a Lightning so can't compare.

Trim on a CF Storm, is not the same as the freefall model...


danielcroft  (D 31103)

May 16, 2012, 8:18 PM
Post #9 of 13 (1607 views)
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Re: [GobbleGobble] Has the Lightning any advantage at all? [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh, sorry, I thought the OP said he was using the hybrid which is the same as regular but with CF baubles I thought.


GobbleGobble  (D 32887)

May 16, 2012, 9:10 PM
Post #10 of 13 (1598 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] Has the Lightning any advantage at all? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Oh, sorry, I thought the OP said he was using the hybrid which is the same as regular but with CF baubles I thought.

You're right. My bad.


NoValidTitle  (C 39172)

May 30, 2012, 7:51 AM
Post #11 of 13 (1458 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Has the Lightning any advantage at all? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The openings were the only thing I preferred about the storm over the lightning. But I'm manly a big way person, and a small way person, but the competition teams all seem to like storms so there must be a reason. I've got 8000 jumps, a really large number on small 7-cells and a thousand on 75-85 square foot ellipticals. I almost never fall down on landing. Of my half dozen jumps on the storm 97 the best I managed to pull off was just going down to a knee. To this day I don't have a clue what the trick is to get any kind of flare out of it.

This really surprises me. I'm not a CRW guy (yet) but I fly a Storm for wingsuiting(which is all I do). I'm on a 135 which leaves me at a 1:1 and I'm in love with that canopy. I've also jumped it with 20lbs of weights on. I always find it seems to have a never ending flare. You clearly have way more experience than I do so I'm not saying your wrong but in my experience it has been a pleasure to land my Storm(non CF version). My absolute favorite landing canopy I've tried so far. I've put about 300 jumps on that Storm and I couldn't be happier. I'm downsizing and bought another in fact. I've let a few people jump it and they loved it as well. In fact most jumps I don't need to flare paste my waist, if I do I pop up. I experienced the same thing on the 120 I demoed. That being said there has to be a technique to it. When I moved to a Spectre I couldn't land it softly to save my life. They were all stand up but hard, it took me 6 or so jumps to change my technique to work with the Spectre. With you're experience(especially compared to mine) I'm hesitant to say it's technique but who knows.

Example: This was a no wind swoop club morning. Tiny coincidence, the guy in the background was also on a Storm.

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/...0043458_901024_o.jpg


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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May 30, 2012, 7:54 AM
Post #12 of 13 (1457 views)
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Re: [NoValidTitle] Has the Lightning any advantage at all? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been told that the freefall storm flares quite a bit better than the crw storm so that may be the reason.


NoValidTitle  (C 39172)

May 30, 2012, 7:58 AM
Post #13 of 13 (1456 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Has the Lightning any advantage at all? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've been told that the freefall storm flares quite a bit better than the crw storm so that may be the reason.

That very well could be. If I ever come across a smaller crw storm I will try to put a couple jumps on it. I'm curious to see the different characteristics.



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