Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Model's Propeller Accident

 

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rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 20, 2012, 8:08 AM
Post #126 of 161 (1049 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
NONE of that is FORGETTING to pulls

FFS when did negligence become a synonym for Forgetting.

Experienced jumpers DO NOT FORGET to pull.

I was on a 4-way Freefly load about 6 years ago. At 3000 jumps at the time and 18 years, I was the least experienced of that group.

I broke the sit round at 4500 as usual and tracked away and dumped at 3000 (as usual). The whole time I watched that remaining 3 way remain in a sit.

About the moment I was in the saddle (or so it seemed) - I saw them break, open and land - not a single one had more than a 10 second canopy ride. Two cypres fires (they didn't pull), and one other reserve fire (he remembered to pull silver - so he didn't forget).

But I'd say pretty clearly that two forgot to pull at all at the right time or later, and one forgot to pull at any altitude good enough for a main. And that include all them seeing the 4th person break and track away during the dive.

It's amazing how scary that looks when you're in the saddle and they continue to fall.

However - Tongue I don't think they forgot again for the rest of that season afterwards, at least.

They all agreed it was stupid - they didn't differentiate between the semantics of whether to call it 'forgetting' vs 'neglected' to pull, they just decided they should know it can happen and they didn't want it to happen to them again.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Apr 20, 2012, 8:12 AM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 20, 2012, 8:13 AM
Post #127 of 161 (1043 views)
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Re: [billvon] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>And the best way to make sure it happens to you is to tell yourself it can't.

I really doubt that, just because Squeak wants to use another word for the problem, implies that this equates to ignoring the possibility.

The take away is that not pulling (for whatever reason and rare as it is) CAN happen to anyone and acknowledging that helps reduce the possibility for everyone.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Apr 20, 2012, 8:16 AM)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Apr 20, 2012, 8:40 AM
Post #128 of 161 (1029 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

They didnt FORGET. They were neglgent.

Why am I being pedantic about this.
Here's why.
Some may say (like Bill Novak) that's it's just a play one words. It's not.
To accept that the forgot to do the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THING in sky diving, is to make excuses for being negligent.

No one FORGETS to pull, you don't pull ON TIME because YOU FUCKED UP not because you "forgot".

I have gone low on an early sit jump, I didnt forget to pull I FUCKED UP, by not being aware of my altitude.

Take responsibility for your actions and don't look for lame arsed excuses for why things go bad.

If there is seriously anyone jumping who thinks that they are capable of "FORGETTING " to pull they should never put a rig on their back





In a text based media such as this the selection of appropriate words is very important for proper and correct communication of ideas.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 20, 2012, 8:48 AM
Post #129 of 161 (1023 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why am I being pedantic about this.

because it's important to you - you infer a certain amount of excuse making in the term 'forget' and won't accept the implication of diverting responsibility to take the right action

- other people might not make that inference like you do and just use the term as a descriptor or even one they find drives acceptance as a root cause needing ownership also

that's why is understandable that it's semantics for people like me but very important to you

actually - I had thought that Billvon was the one that making inferences based on verbage, not you. I got that backwards.

It's funny, some of the biggest arguments I've ever seen is when two people are clearly on the same page (agreeing) for what is happening and they can't recognize that they are agreeing with each other but just refuse to unless they use the same exact verbage. Usually engineers and technical types. I've seen arguments between grown ups over the use of the phrase "cut in" vs "implement" when both were just talking about making the same change in a product.

thanks for caring - your motivation is understandable and caring for all the youngsters out there - I understand what you're trying to say, but trying to force others to use your specific phrasing is only useful when trying to succeed in getting promotions to executive level in engineering companies LaughLaugh


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Apr 20, 2012, 8:52 AM)


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Apr 20, 2012, 8:51 AM
Post #130 of 161 (1017 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
trying to force others to use your specific phrasing is only useful when trying to succeed in getting promotions to executive level in engineering companies
And that's why we have PowerPoint Smile

Wendy P.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 20, 2012, 8:55 AM
Post #131 of 161 (1012 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
trying to force others to use your specific phrasing is only useful when trying to succeed in getting promotions to executive level in engineering companies
And that's why we have PowerPoint Smile

Wendy P.

that's hilarious - I've prepared presos to present to "Vice President Bob". At the end, I've had the comment - "that was great, can you change the words on slide 5 to 'blah blah blah' instead of 'original text'?"

It's silly, because he was the final audience, no point in making revisions, especially just for his personal verbage.

Clarity < > verbage. It = delivery and listening/reading/context skills.
I find that clarity depends a LOT more on the listener than the deliverer.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Apr 20, 2012, 9:02 AM
Post #132 of 161 (1009 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Way off topic, but I actually took a class on presenting material once that was really eye-opening. It improved my presentations hugely, and I've used it to help others.

Look up Edward Tufte. Worth it. He's all about "don't lead them to the conclusion, show them the data and let them participate in the conclusion"

Wendy P.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Apr 20, 2012, 9:07 AM
Post #133 of 161 (1008 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I whole heartedly disagree.
Language and word use specifically (particularly in a medium which is text based, but also when that media is cross cultural)) should be properly defined and when instruction (like in topic specific forums) or information is to be disseminated.

If you give people a "soft" option for why things went awry it excuses there poor decision making or improper judgment. Call things out for what they are, dont glamourise it, dont gloss over it.

This whole back and forth came about because of the way words were being used to excuse behaviours of people who put themselves in harms way. Initially a model walking into the spinning propeller. It then transgressed to jumpers not being "heads up" and "forgetting" the most fundamental thing in our sport. These are not valid reasons for why bad things happened, they're "cop outs".

IF the "safety and Training" sub forum is to have any real validity then it should at the least be the place where excuses are not tolerated.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Apr 20, 2012, 9:13 AM
Post #134 of 161 (1003 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

RWRATP -- real writers rewrite around the problem.

the solution for going forward is to make sure that in teaching one's students, one gives enough context to the words so that the concepts follow naturally. If there's a disagreement about the connotation and/or denotation of the word "forget" then it's not the best word to use when describing the problem, simply because it is prone to misunderstanding.

It's why technical language is as specific as it is -- simply to avoid misunderstandings such as this one.

Wendy P.


SethInMI  (A 47765)

Apr 20, 2012, 9:19 AM
Post #135 of 161 (997 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

But Squeak,

You can't use "I fucked up" as a complete explanation for a cypres fire. Here are some sample answers to "why did you have a cypres fire":

John Doe : "I fucked up. I jumped up on exit, hit the tail, and woke up under canopy"
Jane Doe : "I fucked up. I stuffed my PC too deep in the pouch, and spent 15 sec trying to dig it out"
Jack Doe : "I fucked up. I lost altitude awareness; I forgot to pull."

In general, saying "I forgot..." does not in any way absolve me of responsibility, but it does explain what happened.

Here in the USA anyway, "I forgot" is a common equivalent for "I lost track of time", as in "oh shit, I forgot to pick up my daughter" after losing track of time while watching a football match.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 20, 2012, 9:20 AM
Post #136 of 161 (995 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

it's such a blatant common sense topic, that this really is silly though

semantics jockeys are likely the reason that we have warning lables on toothpick boxes

"did not pull" is the only accurate statement - everything else is someone's interpretation on the reason why - so I don't much care, the solution is to pull


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Apr 20, 2012, 9:22 AM)


toolbox  (D 18778)

Apr 20, 2012, 9:35 AM
Post #137 of 161 (987 views)
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Re: [billvon] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

The point is that forgetting to pull because you are buzy having fun is unacceptable behavior.
Forgetting to pull is just stupid.
I'm glad most people have AAD's these days..
Forgetting to pull is more stupid than walking into a spinning prop.


SethInMI  (A 47765)

Apr 20, 2012, 9:35 AM
Post #138 of 161 (986 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah it is silly, as we are all basically on the same page.

For some one who is interested in being precise in language, I think you can make a distinction between omitting a step while planning out a process, and losing track of time and not taking an action when you should.

It is not like any jumper mentally planning a dive flow "forgets" the pull step and expects to go directly from breakoff and track to check canopy/collapse slider, but after 60 sec or so from exit their minds don't remind them.

It is a convention to use the phrase "forgetting" for both accidentally omitting a planning step and missing a timing cue, even though cognitively they feel to me quite different.

But again, just semantics, IMHO.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 20, 2012, 10:33 AM
Post #139 of 161 (974 views)
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Re: [toolbox] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The point is that forgetting to pull because you are buzy having fun is unacceptable behavior.
Forgetting to pull is just stupid.
I'm glad most people have AAD's these days..
Forgetting to pull is more stupid than walking into a spinning prop.


my eyes teared up a bit with that post - trying not to laugh too loud

thanks


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 20, 2012, 2:20 PM
Post #140 of 161 (958 views)
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Re: [toolbox] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

>The point is that forgetting to pull because you are buzy having fun is
>unacceptable behavior.

Agreed. And forgetting to pull even if you are doing something that you think is important (like trying to get stable) is also unacceptable.


toolbox  (D 18778)

Apr 20, 2012, 5:43 PM
Post #141 of 161 (945 views)
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Re: [billvon] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Right


toolbox  (D 18778)

Apr 20, 2012, 5:45 PM
Post #142 of 161 (943 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

LaughSlySlyLaughLaugh right.


JasonYergin  (C 40641)

Apr 21, 2012, 7:47 AM
Post #143 of 161 (918 views)
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Re: [toolbox] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel terrible for this girl. I really hope she recovers and goes on to do great things.


toolbox  (D 18778)

Apr 21, 2012, 9:08 AM
Post #144 of 161 (905 views)
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Re: [JasonYergin] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep! She has shit sandwich on her plate.
I also hope she recovers,but without any settlements from lawsuits.
She served up her own sandwich and now she has to choke it down on her own.
At least she is still alive.


lawrocket  (Student)

Apr 21, 2012, 12:11 PM
Post #145 of 161 (891 views)
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Re: [toolbox] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So it is not stupid if a genius walks into a spinning prop?

The gal was not stupid. She was ignorant. Even as a student pilot, the prop stopped before anyone got in or out of the plane. She made an ignorant mistake.

The pilot was in command. He was responsible for her safety. He let her out with the prop spinning. To me that's inexcuseable. She fucked up. He let her. She was not fully aware of a risk about which he was cognizant and he did not manage it.


nigel99  (D 1)

Apr 21, 2012, 6:18 PM
Post #146 of 161 (859 views)
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Re: [billvon] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>I "heads up" persons would think twice about walking towards the business
>end of a plane. This was NOT a "heads up" person.

And a heads up person would never forget to pull. And a heads up person would never pull the wrong handle under stress. But still, they sometimes do.

By definition you are not 'heads up' if you do something that stupid. You may be experienced, even someone who is conservative and cautious, but that does not make you heads up.

Complacency kills and ANY skydiver who has died or had a cypress fire while waiting for the beep is not heads up, they are either incompetent or complacent.

As far as the model goes, I wouldn't blame a person unfamiliar with aircraft for a screw up like that. People mentioned earlier in the thread about static line students being different to a tandem student. A tandem student may have been on a small airport or dropzone for 30 minutes before boarding, a SL student should have had considerably more exposure. I think the same is true for passenger joy rides. Most passengers are ignorant thereby placing them into the incompetent bracket. The pilot should take responsibility for their safety.


Krip  (Student)

Apr 21, 2012, 6:44 PM
Post #147 of 161 (855 views)
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Re: [lawrocket] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
So it is not stupid if a genius walks into a spinning prop?

The gal was not stupid. She was ignorant. Even as a student pilot, the prop stopped before anyone got in or out of the plane. She made an ignorant mistake.

The pilot was in command. He was responsible for her safety. He let her out with the prop spinning. To me that's inexcuseable. She fucked up. He let her. She was not fully aware of a risk about which he was cognizant and he did not manage it.

I agree with rocket.

What did the pilot have to gain by not shutting down before he let the PAX exit. A little time, less wear and tear on the starter and battery.Crazy

What did he have to lose by not shutting down ,a lot of sleepless nights.Frown

IMO The Risk wasn't worth the rewards.

R.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 21, 2012, 11:05 PM
Post #148 of 161 (836 views)
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Re: [Krip] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

>What did the pilot have to gain by not shutting down before he let the PAX
>exit. A little time, less wear and tear on the starter and battery. What did
>he have to lose by not shutting down ,a lot of sleepless nights.

Agreed. But keep in mind that all those things apply to skydivers - and we've had skydivers struck by props - and we still load hot.


JasonYergin  (C 40641)

Apr 22, 2012, 12:03 AM
Post #149 of 161 (828 views)
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Re: [billvon] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

It should go without saying that you never approach the aircraft near the prop.

I say it should but it doesn't because it isn't drilled into people often enough.

I think from now on I will call people out no matter how much experience they have and of course they can choose to listen to me or be arrogant and say or do whatever they gotta do. Consistency with approaching the aircraft is the only way to go though because short of saving someones life or limb it's just never worth the extra 4 seconds you'd save by shortcutting it. Doing the right thing and setting a good example is the responsibility of everyone on the airfield.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Apr 22, 2012, 2:16 AM
Post #150 of 161 (821 views)
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Re: [JasonYergin] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I say it should but it doesn't because it isn't drilled into people often enough.

Its standard at our DZ to tell everyone about the dangers of props....except we don't cal it a prop.

Its called a "mincer".....and people really GET that.


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