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CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED

 

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Amyr  (C License)

Apr 20, 2012, 9:51 AM
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CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED Can't Post

OK I am new so if it is obvious by looking why this happened please just tell me anyway. From the comments I do not understand why flying with a camera would have anything to do with a canopy ripping in half. AND my question is about why and how the canopy ripped in half and what he did to cause this not about him stowing his slider on a reserve chute before doing his canopy check. THANK YOU


http://www.iloveskydiving.org/view/videos/friday-freakout-students-skydiving-parachute-rips-in-half/


Amyr  (C License)

Apr 20, 2012, 9:52 AM
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Re: [Amyr] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.iloveskydiving.org/...achute-rips-in-half/


obelixtim  (D 84)

Apr 20, 2012, 9:57 AM
Post #3 of 54 (2687 views)
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Re: [Amyr] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry, can't see that....Edit, can now.

A canopy could rip for several reasons, although it is very unusual. A couple of reasons could be....

Could be a manufacturing fault if it was new.

Could be wworn out if it was old (canopy fabric weakens over time, especially with exposure to UV light).

Could have sustained some damage previously.

In this case if he had a premature deployment while head down, his speed, and the subsequent opening shock would be greater than normal,. and if his body position put unusual stress on the canopy, combined with an old canopy that might have been enough to blow it up.

Its a good reason to deploy in a stable position.

These guys took gear that was not suitable for what they attempted, and almost paid a high price for their stupidity.

Treat gear properly, and generally it'll treat you properly.


(This post was edited by obelixtim on Apr 20, 2012, 10:05 AM)


skydude2000  (B 5843)

Apr 20, 2012, 10:01 AM
Post #4 of 54 (2675 views)
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Re: [Amyr] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Amy,

Flying with a camera is a distraction that many newbies take too lightly, and are not prepared for the added complexity that a camera will add to a skydive. He was too focussed on the camera and not focussed enough of the safety of the jump. He was warned that the rig he was jumping was not designed to handle freefly speeds, ergo, when he flew on his back, he had a premature deployment, did not slow down prior to pulling.

The first thing you should be thinking about after a malfunction is whether your LAST canopy is able to fly and land properly. The flapping of the slider is the LEAST of your concerns.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

Blue skies & be safe.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Apr 20, 2012, 10:04 AM
Post #5 of 54 (2664 views)
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Re: [Amyr] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

What probably caused this canopy to rip up was the premature deployment in an unstable position (on his back) at probably a high fall rate.

What probably caused this was him trying to get "the shot", going on his back in a non freefly friendly rig.

Any jump with a camera is not a regular jump. No mater what kind of camera it is.



And please, stop shouting (all caps... Bad form).


Amyr  (C License)

Apr 20, 2012, 10:18 AM
Post #6 of 54 (2624 views)
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Re: [Remster] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

Alright>> SO i state this as a question>>

A freefly friendly rig is designed to withstand unusual or unstable deployments?

If this is true? How so> Once again i am new in asking.

A freefly friendly rig is going to slow the deployment regardless of body position?

So a student rig is made to withstand all kinds of body position deployment?

You have freefly friendly rigs and non freefly friendly rigs? Is there a third?


mattpark  (D 31560)

Apr 20, 2012, 10:28 AM
Post #7 of 54 (2596 views)
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Re: [Amyr] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

A freefly friendly rig doesn't slow the deployment if you are on your back. Through well designed riser covers, proper bridle protection, etc. a freefly friendly rig will help help keep an unintentional deployment from happening like in the video. Unintentional deployments can still happen.

If you're on your back and you pull (or if it gets deployed unintentionally) you are still going to have a canopy over your head in a very short amount of time.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Apr 20, 2012, 10:29 AM
Post #8 of 54 (2596 views)
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Re: [Amyr] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

A freefly friendly rig (which most if not all modern rigs are) will lessen the chance of a premature deployment by having a more protected main bridle.

In the end, shit happens. You can have a premature deployment on your belly, with the most bullet proof rig.

This aint bowling.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Apr 20, 2012, 10:29 AM
Post #9 of 54 (2594 views)
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Re: [Amyr] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
A freefly friendly rig is designed to withstand unusual or unstable deployments?

No. A freefly friendly rig means you can do freeflying with a lot more safety, and you shouldn't have premature openings because they are built with preventing such accidental deployments in mind.

Apart from that everything is normal. You still have to deploy in a normal position.

Deploying in an abnormal position will most likely cause a problem of one sort or another.

Thats why stability is drilled into first jumpers.


(This post was edited by obelixtim on Apr 20, 2012, 10:37 AM)


skydude2000  (B 5843)

Apr 20, 2012, 10:31 AM
Post #10 of 54 (2583 views)
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Re: [Amyr] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Amy,

Freefly friendly rigs will not slow you down during a deployment, but they offer better protection for the critical components of the deployment system, ie. pilot chute, bridle, main & reserve pins. The only thing that can slow the body position is the jumper, or the planet Pirate.

Student rigs are generally not freefly friendly, or at least, rental rigs may not be. It stands to reason that student rigs SHOULD be freefly friendly, given the unstable body positions of many students.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Apr 20, 2012, 10:34 AM
Post #11 of 54 (2573 views)
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Re: [Amyr] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

Didn't we have a whole thread on this video before, for some good ol' newbie bashing?

I couldn't find it with a quick look however.


Edit:
The jumper probably wasn't going all that fast on deployment, although a little extra speed could be a factor. A more important factor could be the body position on deployment -- with the canopy deploying perhaps to one side of the jumper's back, one riser would be pulled down more than the other, creating a non symmetrical deployment, creating higher stresses at some points than usual.

Still, that alone wouldn't normally split a canopy, so a strong possibility is that it was an older canopy where the canopy strength was already lowered.

Edit 2:
The center back top skin of the canopy tends to be an area of heavy wear. The center cell is also the division between the left and right riser line groups. As for why the canopy split along the center, the former can be a factor, and the latter, who knows, maybe.


(This post was edited by pchapman on Apr 20, 2012, 10:47 AM)


Amyr  (C License)

Apr 20, 2012, 10:39 AM
Post #12 of 54 (2559 views)
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Re: [Remster] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
This aint bowling.


So still do not understand why him having a camera caused his parachute to rip in half

I understand he should not have had a camera at his jump level.

I know shit happens In my mind I am thinking SHIT i just spent 1500 on a parachute and it splits in half and I have to pull my reserve. YES i know its your life and it is more important then money for a parachute . IS the belly to earth body position what slows the deployment down or just the most stable means of deploying a parachute or both?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 20, 2012, 10:43 AM
Post #13 of 54 (2553 views)
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Re: [Amyr] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

>A freefly friendly rig is designed to withstand unusual or unstable deployments?

No. It helps prevent unexpected deployments, but most are not designed to withstand deployment speeds associated with higher-than-terminal deployments. Exceeding the rig's limits is always dangerous.

BTW my wife (also named Amy) had a similar blowout. She blew out the top skin stem to stern on a Pilot 140. It was a normal deployment but the canopy had around 1200 jumps on it and the fabric just gave out.


Amyr  (C License)

Apr 20, 2012, 10:47 AM
Post #14 of 54 (2542 views)
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Re: [billvon] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry I am trying to figure this out so bare with me or ignore my repeated uneducated questions.

It appears to me on the video he is not on his back until the parachute come out at best he was in a heads down position.

So Question if a rig is not freefly friendly all you should do is belly to earth flying?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 20, 2012, 10:49 AM
Post #15 of 54 (2537 views)
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Re: [Amyr] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

>So still do not understand why him having a camera caused his parachute
>to rip in half

Since he had a camera he backflew for a long time to try to get video of his buddy. Eventually the bridle came loose and he had a premature deployment - and due to him being on his back he was falling faster than terminal.

>IS the belly to earth body position what slows the deployment down or just
>the most stable means of deploying a parachute or both?

Both. Most people can fall the most slowly on their bellies - and that's the position the main is designed to deploy in cleanly.


Amyr  (C License)

Apr 20, 2012, 10:49 AM
Post #16 of 54 (2535 views)
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Re: [billvon] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Exceeding the rig's limits is always dangerous

Rigs have deployment speeds?

Every time I think I am getting smarter about this skydiving stuff I learn once again I do not know shit about skydiving


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 20, 2012, 10:53 AM
Post #17 of 54 (2529 views)
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Re: [Amyr] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

1 - he's on his back and clearly as soon as he did that, his fall rate increased. It doesn't have to, but in the shot, he accelerates away from his partner. Faster fall rates cause more stress during opening. That's why belly deployment is good as it gives a more likely chance that deployment happens at a speed that the canopy was designed to open at.

2 - containers aren't designed for deployment in any orientation than belly to earth. he opened on his back. that adds more stress at deployment

3 - beginner jumper clearly shouldn't have a camera - he might be distracted from feel what's going on back there - if it would have mattered

4 - beginner jumper doesn't know how to backfly - if he's spinning and the main comes out - that would also add stress on the opening sequence

5 - beginner jumper chose to go on his back even though told this is not a rig friendly to other orientations - that's bad judgement (not surprising with this jumper if he's using a camera, freeflying, all before A license - and, in fact, doing all that simultaneously). Honestly though, mods to rigs to make them more freefly friendly should be done on all rigs - especially rentals - newbies get unstable, AFF students tumble - hard to justify avoiding those mods.


the camera may or may not have contributed - but it looks like it did encourage him to be on his back. being on his back likely did cause (directly) the premature deployment and aggravated the stress on that canopy

I suspect also, that the canopy might have been weak too. But that doesn't excuse the newbie from his mistakes - video this early, freefly this early, practicing backflying on a rig not meant for that, etc etc etc.

choices
choices
choices

hope he learned a bit about learning curves and gear selection though


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Apr 20, 2012, 10:54 AM)


Amyr  (C License)

Apr 20, 2012, 11:02 AM
Post #18 of 54 (2499 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok go ahead and slap your foreheads now another question i should probably already know.

In a premature deployment the entire bag comes out at the same time as the pilot chute not in a initiated deployment sequence? SO the pilot chute is unable to do its job and slow the jumper down? And the parachute comes out without the aid of the pilot chute to slow it down?

Is this even close to being right?


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Apr 20, 2012, 11:14 AM
Post #19 of 54 (2477 views)
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Re: [Amyr] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

A "freefly friendly" rig has bridle, pin and riser protection designed to withstand the higher speeds and different orentations you see in freeflying (vs bellyflying).
It makes it more resistant to premature openings, and to the other fun stuff that can happen when stuff comes out when it's not supposed to. Risers coming out at the wrong time can create all sorts of havoc.

The camera was a factor in that the jumper decided to backfly to capture his buddy's deployment. It looked like he then either tried to go head-down or just went unstable and was floppiing all over. That resulted in a premature while somewhere between head-down and on his back.
It was also indicative of his decision making. Along with 2 non-licensed jumpers and freeflying a non-freefly rig it kinda shows a lack of understanding of what can go wrong and failing to plan for it.

The canopy may have blown because of the higher speed of the unstable head-down (that speed can pick up surprisingly fast) the out of position deployment (pulling one riser more that the other) or just a worn out rental/student canopy.
Or (most likely) a combination of all three.

The stowing the slider on the reserve is simply muscle memory taking over in a time of stress. It's what he's always done, so he tried to do it there. Not terribly unusual.

Edit to reply to:
Quote:
In a premature deployment the entire bag comes out at the same time as the pilot chute not in a initiated deployment sequence? SO the pilot chute is unable to do its job and slow the jumper down? And the parachute comes out without the aid of the pilot chute to slow it down?

Is this even close to being right?

Not really. A premature is when the canopy comes out without the jumper deploying it.
It can be an out of sequence deployment (the bag comes out first) or it can simply be the pilot chute working it's way out of the BOC pocket (due to stretched or worn out Spandex).

The problem with it is that the jumper isn't expecting it, and may be in an orientation or at a speed that makes it dangerous. And of course, the other jumpers around him aren't expecting it either.

The pilot chute doesn't slow the jumper down very much. It just pulls everything out to initiate the opening sequence. You don't get "stood up" when you pitch, it happens at line stretch when the canopy comes out of the bag.

And yes, we can get into a long and involved discussion about snatch force and opening shock here, but that's more than we need to.


(This post was edited by wolfriverjoe on Apr 20, 2012, 11:22 AM)


Premier Remster  (C License)

Apr 20, 2012, 11:16 AM
Post #20 of 54 (2470 views)
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Re: [Amyr] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ok go ahead and slap your foreheads now another question i should probably already know.

In a premature deployment the entire bag comes out at the same time as the pilot chute not in a initiated deployment sequence? SO the pilot chute is unable to do its job and slow the jumper down? And the parachute comes out without the aid of the pilot chute to slow it down?

Is this even close to being right?

No.

Please, step away from the internets, and go talk to instructors at your DZ. You have so many gaps in your understanding on how gear works that, for someone with 40 jumps, I'm a bit scared.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 20, 2012, 11:19 AM
Post #21 of 54 (2463 views)
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Re: [Remster] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Please, go talk to instructors at your DZ. You have so many gaps in your understanding on how gear works that, for someone with 40 jumps, I'm a bit scared.

the pilot chute is not intended to slow you down, it's intended to pull the main out, stretch the lines and then expose the canopy


yeah, Remster is right, this is best - have an instructor (better yet, a rigger) walk through the deployment sequence and gear familiarity in person. Have him explain the purpose of the line stretch, what the slider does during opening, etc etc etc.

I'm not 'scared' for you and glad you are curious, but someone in person can answer directly while on this site, you get info piecemeal, and you don't even know if the person providing the info really knows it or is just throwing out their best (well intentioned) guesses too.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Apr 20, 2012, 11:23 AM)


dragon2  (D 101989)

Apr 20, 2012, 11:20 AM
Post #22 of 54 (2462 views)
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Re: [Amyr] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

The pilotchute does not slow down a jumper. I think you are confusing a pilotchute with a drogue as used in tandems. In fact, a pilotchute could even speed you up by standing you up, making you fall down faster than 120mph (in a baglock malfunction situation, for instance).

YOU are responsible for slowing yourself down, to 120mph (200km/h) downward speed and no vertical speed and no turning, for preference.


A premature deployment can be caused by the pilotchute coming out first as usual, but unplanned and possibly in a not belly-to-earth body position. The rest of the deployment is in sequence but is likely quicker and may result in damage or other malfunctions.
This is (or used to be) the most common premature deployment in sit/backflying I think, especially in non-freefly proof rigs or with older pilotchute pockets.

Other possibilities for a premature opening include the pin coming out so the bag leaves first. Proper response from the jumper, altitude permitting, is to pull out the pilotchute quickly and hope for a normal deployment. If the pilotchute is still in its pocket when the bag is out, that is called a horseshoe malfunction.

You reserve can also open unintentionally. This you could also call a premature deployment I guess. This could happen by someone/something snagging your reserve handle (which is why freeflyers often use a reserve pillow instead of a metal handle), or the reserve pin coming out by itself (something that occasionally happens on exits where the jumper touches the top of the door with his/her rig).


Amyr  (C License)

Apr 20, 2012, 11:22 AM
Post #23 of 54 (2458 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
freeflying a non-freefly rig it kinda shows a lack of understanding of what can go wrong and failing to plan for it.

If i ever go to another dropzone and have to rent equipment do they tell you this is a non free fly friendly rig? Or am i supposed to be able just by looking at it able to determine what type of rig this is?


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Apr 20, 2012, 11:24 AM
Post #24 of 54 (2449 views)
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Re: [Amyr] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Please, step away from the internets, and go talk to instructors at your DZ. You have so many gaps in your understanding on how gear works that, for someone with 40 jumps, I'm a bit scared.

+1


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 20, 2012, 11:24 AM
Post #25 of 54 (2448 views)
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Re: [Amyr] CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
freeflying a non-freefly rig it kinda shows a lack of understanding of what can go wrong and failing to plan for it.

If i ever go to another dropzone and have to rent equipment do they tell you this is a non free fly friendly rig? Or am i supposed to be able just by looking at it able to determine what type of rig this is?

don't assume anything - learn the features yourself - ask a rigger


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