Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
27 Cells for competitions and daily work

 

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tamagotchi

Apr 17, 2012, 7:48 AM
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27 Cells for competitions and daily work Can't Post

Hi,

im looking for a 27 cell mostly for daily work (Aff, Tandemvideo, Instruction), freestyle fun and a little bit for comps.

Which one is the best for that?

Long swoops


rem

Apr 17, 2012, 11:24 AM
Post #2 of 30 (2790 views)
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Re: [tamagotchi] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

JPX, aka miss Nemcova...Tongue


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Apr 17, 2012, 3:03 PM
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Re: [rem] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

if you are referring to Petra, I didn't know they were commercially available yet. Also if they haven't addressed the collapsing issue like the one that happened in Dubai, I would think twice about it.

I love Icarus Canopies but watching something collapse mid dive was scary to see.


jjudd  (D 31065)

Apr 18, 2012, 12:51 AM
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Re: [tamagotchi] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

U will want a xaos if you want good nice soft on heading openings. Everyone of my friends with a jvx calls it a junkvx because Of the openings but they all love the flights and swoops though it always seems that thing recovers dirty low and quick. Long swoops get that velo! Openings are doable even with full rds from terminal regularly and you got that nice long diving recovery, I wouldn't have it any other way but your on the 7cell crossbrace platform not your requested 9.

Good luck! Out of curiosity why no profile info? Wink


frost  (D 25011)

Apr 18, 2012, 5:49 AM
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Re: [jjudd] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
U will want a xaos if you want good nice soft on heading openings. Everyone of my friends with a jvx calls it a junkvx because Of the openings but they all love the flights and swoops though it always seems that thing recovers dirty low and quick.

Long swoops get that velo! Openings are doable even with full rds from terminal regularly and you got that nice long diving recovery

i think that feedback and comparison of JVX opening and flight characteristics is questionable at best, especially when I read about its "dirty low and quick" recovery and then take into consideration the second part about Velocity characteristics.

OP - bottom line: any current production x-braced canopy will perform required tasks very well, if you have the skills and ability to handle it. I would also throw in Scirocco for your consideration - a Ukrainian made HP X-baced canopy. Here is the discussion thread: http://www.dropzone.com/...rum.cgi?post=3908301. The cost of Scirocco in a competition trim is vey low compared to its counterparts, the quality is very high and performance is world class. You could demo it in several sized the States these days - there are several top US pilots (sponsored and non-sponsored) that are jumping it now.


bofh  (D 13995)

Apr 18, 2012, 6:16 AM
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Re: [frost] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
OP - bottom line: any current production x-braced canopy will perform required tasks very well, if you have the skills and ability to handle it. I would also throw in Scirocco for your consideration - a Ukrainian made HP X-baced canopy.

I love my Scirocco, but its a 30 cell. Tongue I can't really recommend it for AFF work though, it takes too long to open, just like the velo, only with much better openings. On the other hand, I've only jumped my own and I've got much longer risers than recommended, so others might be different.

My recommendation would be JVX. Fast, but soft openings on heading. Flies rather nice, though a bit harder to keep diving if you start too high compared to Scirocco or velo.


BMFin

Apr 18, 2012, 6:28 AM
Post #7 of 30 (2560 views)
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Re: [bofh] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

Why is there no info on the scirocco on Skylarks website? Have they taken it out from their selection ?


jjudd  (D 31065)

Apr 18, 2012, 8:11 AM
Post #8 of 30 (2529 views)
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Re: [frost] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

If you read the above statement then you would know I said my friends opinion. I've only flown xaos and velos. Jvx doesn't float my boat and like I said it was their opinion.

Either way the jvx xaos whatever 9 cell platform crossbrace Is going to recover much quicker than a seven cell platform, which means a lower chance to save your ass when your deep in the corner on it ass your altitude is just that much closer to the ground

Good call in the siccoro never seen one out here in california yet however


frost  (D 25011)

Apr 18, 2012, 12:35 PM
Post #9 of 30 (2469 views)
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Re: [jjudd] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you read the above statement then you would know I said my friends opinion. I've only flown xaos and velos. Jvx doesn't float my boat and like I said it was their opinion.
I try to speak from personal experience, especially when giving advice. that's a hint ;)

In reply to:
Either way the jvx xaos whatever 9 cell platform crossbrace Is going to recover much quicker than a seven cell platform, which means a lower chance to save your ass when your deep in the corner on it ass your altitude is just that much closer to the ground
That is not true at all.

In reply to:
Good call in the siccoro never seen one out here in california yet however
I can point you to two people in CA for possible demos. PM me if interested.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Apr 18, 2012, 7:35 PM
Post #10 of 30 (2390 views)
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Re: [jjudd] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

quicker recover arc mean, you stab on the rear or breaks it will recover and fly level. so i think it has better chance of saving your ass when you are in the corner...

I've got jvx 94 that I wanna get rid of.. to the first op. let me know if you want it.. going cheap for 420 jumps on the canopy.


bofh  (D 13995)

Apr 18, 2012, 11:30 PM
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Re: [BMFin] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why is there no info on the scirocco on Skylarks website? Have they taken it out from their selection ?

I don't think they've ever had it on their English website.
Their Russian page is at:
http://www.skylark.ua/ru/scirocco/

I've only read about it via Google Translate:
http://translate.google.com/...a%2Fru%2Fscirocco%2F

Not the best translation, but one gets most of it.


flipper  (D 11524)

Apr 19, 2012, 4:48 AM
Post #12 of 30 (2321 views)
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Re: [jjudd] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

+1

JVX opening are to inconsistant for a daily work canopy, it also dosnt like to stay in the dive - was like being back on a Stiletto ( not that there is anything wrong with a Stiletto )

Power on the rears is incredible but thats it

Was happy when I sold mines


dima39  (D 177246)

Apr 19, 2012, 5:15 AM
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Re: [tamagotchi] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

30 cells aka Scirocco rulez :), i have one Sc-77 :)!


adamT  (D 26819)

Apr 19, 2012, 7:57 AM
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Re: [bofh] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a 9 cell, extra unloaded ribs doesn't equal more cells. I like my Scirocco 77 a lot, but I had to ditch their stock slider for terminal openings. It was a no go. With one of my para concept sliders its totally manageable for a canopy of its class. I pack for myself and never had any major issues with any of my velos or my jvx. Terminal with full rds just fine.

OP: I wouldn't jump into that configuration(full rds) right away, it's something to work up too. But if you are a consistent packer or have a solid experienced packer for hire you can have a long happy relationship with your cross braced. Any parachute can act up and ruin your day, especially the little fun ones. Stay on your toes and have fun.


justme12001  (D 29862)

Apr 19, 2012, 8:07 AM
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Re: [dima39] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

who would i need to contact to demo a siccoro? Didn't see a demo section on the skylark site.


Pablo.Moreno  (C 13216)

Apr 19, 2012, 3:42 PM
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Re: [justme12001] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

I jump with a guy that owns 2 JVX 94 wingload at 1.9/1 . Talking with Brian Germain last year he was commenting on how maybe he needs to load the canopy a little bit more to get better openings.

After 480 jumps he did, more or less, last season on his JVX, he came to the conclusion that packing is the key, last season was one of his years where he did most of his jumps and he didn't have any cutaway.

Since I start skydiving, 4 to 5 years ago he always had a cutaway a year or so, and last year where he jump the most he had maybe 4 close calls and most of the the rest where nice slow on heading openings.

I have a few openings on my computer if anyone wants to see them.

If you want a tip on how to pack the JVX, I can ninja record him and post it =P


jjudd  (D 31065)

Apr 19, 2012, 9:43 PM
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Re: [frost] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

Not at all true is incorrect of the recent fatalities out here (california specifically SoCal) and recent serious injuries all except one have been on canopies with a shorter recovery arc.

Fact and point is You may not be deeper in the corner but you are initiating turns and coming out of them lower to the ground. The closer you are to te ground the less time you have to react and interpret any thoughts. Thus the more heavily loaded and closer to the ground the recovery is the smaller margin for error you have and that stab may not be enough to save you. A longer recovery doesn't necessarily mean you can't pull out a velo from a turn equally as quick as a jvx. you also for sure have a lot more altitude to make those decisions


jjudd  (D 31065)

Apr 19, 2012, 10:17 PM
Post #18 of 30 (2132 views)
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Re: [jjudd] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me add to this, you have both canopies, a jvx and a velo in a dive finishing a 270 for example. Both canopies let's say have generated maximum speed and dive created from this turn. Now what is it that makes these canopies recover. It is the trim of the canopy then any input we give it. If both pilots are loaded the same and both canopies are allowed to recover naturally with no input we all know the jvx recovers quicker than velo naturally and in less altitude.

So for both canopies to recover at ground level our initiation points will differ the velo higher jvx lower, and our time of dive will be the same but time of recovery differs.

Now let's put both canopies deep in the corner, the jvx is now much closer to the ground then the velo and both pilots now are stabbing it out. The factors at hand are the pilots reaction time delay and now if both change their trim by applying brakes both can only apply so much before the stall point is reached, typically after a level flight position in brakes, but the velo can achieve close to the same trim in brakes and recover equally hen stabbing out which give you a higher safety margin with the longer recovery as you have more altitude and reaction time. Granted when your too low your too low and this may only be enough to keep you from pounding straight in but that is human error and many bad decisions if they are that low.

Anyhow the point is for best working canopy your going to want something with good openings. Keep your canopy for comps separate and train specifically for competikns it is the moral of the story. Your not training yourself equally without the rds and comp lines. Everything is different between the two from wingloading, as I dont know to many people loading 2.8 for comps loading the same on their work canopy, to time of dive to natural recovery time to initiation points. And if you do not train on what you will compete on at those loadings and conditions your setting yourself up for a lot of factors that can put you in the corner too deeL to simply stab out.

People aren't realizing this and it's hurting our sport especially here in SoCal. It's not just doing a turn from a set altitude and being able to stab out quicker when low because your canopy has a shorter recovery. If that was the case we would have a lot fewer injuries and fatalities out here recently. And I know I'm preaching to the choir but almost everyone on here seems to realize this but we're still doing it. Our margin for error is so small that we can't not look at all the factors that affect our safety. We have to train and we have not be complacent and mostly we cant think we can dig out its the wrong mindset. It won't kill us to take a zero and blow come gates. It will kill our sport and families if we don't keep up on our game


(This post was edited by jjudd on Apr 19, 2012, 10:22 PM)


dima39  (D 177246)

Apr 19, 2012, 11:28 PM
Post #19 of 30 (2119 views)
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Re: [justme12001] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

Go to Ranch, ask Sergey Fedotov for Scirocco :)!


tamagotchi

Apr 20, 2012, 12:58 AM
Post #20 of 30 (2103 views)
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Re: [jjudd] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi all!

Sorry i had a computer break down the last two days.

Thanks for the answers.

The 27 Cell should only be for daily work. For Competition i use a normal velocity because the comp velo is to expensive for me.

Maybe next week i get a xaos for testing.

Did anybody know where i can test the scirroco in europe?


bofh  (D 13995)

Apr 20, 2012, 2:55 AM
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Re: [tamagotchi] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Did anybody know where i can test the scirroco in europe?

If you come to Sweden (Gothenburg) you can test my SC-77.


tamagotchi

Apr 20, 2012, 3:02 AM
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Re: [bofh] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

It would be very interessting. But 77 is defintive to small for me.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Apr 20, 2012, 4:01 AM
Post #23 of 30 (2076 views)
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Re: [bofh] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Did anybody know where i can test the scirroco in europe?

If you come to Sweden (Gothenburg) you can test my SC-77.

Thanks! I consider that. I'm not sure if I'm ready for WL 3.2. Cool

Were you jumping that in Nsige last year during the WS and FF boogie?


(This post was edited by phoenixlpr on Apr 20, 2012, 5:49 AM)


frost  (D 25011)

Apr 20, 2012, 5:26 AM
Post #24 of 30 (2056 views)
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Re: [jjudd] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not at all true is incorrect of the recent fatalities out here (california specifically SoCal) and recent serious injuries all except one have been on canopies with a shorter recovery arc.
is that what's causing incidents these days? Canopies with short recovery are to blame?

In reply to:
you also for sure have a lot more altitude to make those decisions
You DONT have "a lot more altitude" to make decisions!! Dont suggest this to anyone new to swooping and dont post that on these forums. That's dangerous and deadly advice. But i do like it!! Wont you come join the School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying on Facebook?


(This post was edited by frost on Apr 20, 2012, 5:29 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 20, 2012, 5:44 AM
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Re: [jjudd] 27 Cells for competitions and daily work [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
typically after a level flight position in brakes, but the velo can achieve close to the same trim in brakes and recover equally hen stabbing out

This is the error in your argument. The point is that if you're in the corner, you're not in level flight, so comparing the time-to-recovery from level flight is irrelevant.

You said it youself (kind of)
Quote:
what is it that makes these canopies recover. It is the trim of the canopy

The trim is also what makes the canopy dive, and the steeper trim allow the Velo to dive further. That steeper trim, however, also requires a greater degree of change to go from diving to level flight than a canopy with a flatter trim.

So you may turn the JVX lower, but at the same time it requires a lesser degree of change to dig out, cancelling out the disadvantage of the lower altitude.

There are other factors as well, like the human tendency to be more accurate judging closer distances than farther. This can come into play during the set-up, initiation, and determining a bailout altitude.

The truth of the matter is that long or short recovery arcs are different, each with their own pros and cons, and from a safety perspective, neither has a clear advatage over the other. For the purposes of speed and distance, the long recovery arc certainly gives the pilot more time to build up speed in the dive, but that's hardly a safety issue.

Case in point, my first 4000 swoops were split up between Sabres and Stilettos, ranging from 135 to 107, and loaded between 1.4 and 1.9. None of those canopies had a long recovery arc, and the bigger Sabres had almost no dive at all, but I managed to swoop them incident-free for a decade. Now I have 1000+ on Velos over the last 7 years, again without incident.


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