Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
"Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training

 


Poll: "Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training
I have only used a true hanging harness in my training 27 / 18%
I have only used a leaning harness in my training 13 / 9%
I have used both and found the hanging harness better/more realistic 13 / 9%
I have used both and found the leaning harness better for other reasons 2 / 1%
I have used both and found they both have their advantages 15 / 10%
I have used both and found no particular advantage 4 / 3%
I have never used either... what's a training harness 13 / 9%
I think DZ's should have true handing harnesses 26 / 17%
I think DZ's should have leaning harnesses 4 / 3%
I think DZ's should have both available 19 / 13%
I see not reason to having training harnesses 6 / 4%
I feel that polls should have more answers available because none of them fit my exact situation 8 / 5%
150 total votes
 
fcajump  (D 15598)

Apr 12, 2012, 6:59 AM
Post #1 of 25 (4735 views)
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"Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training Can't Post

Ok... I learned in a true, kill your groin, bruise your thigh, handing harness (just like in Fandango) and despite the discomfort, I think it adds considerably to the learning experience.

BUT I also see an advantage to the "leaning" harness, including the notion that they can be used by anyone at anytime without assistance...

So, whaddya think??

JW

And, yes... I know... I forgot some option that somebody wants included...


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Apr 12, 2012, 8:52 AM
Post #2 of 25 (4617 views)
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Re: [fcajump] "Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

The important question is NOT what people's opinion is! The important question is if both have acceptable OUTCOMES.

At my home DZ we use the leaning harness for 99% of initial and re-currency EP training. Our students and graduates effectively execute their EPs when necessary in the air without difficulty.

Perhaps one reason for this success is that the leaning harnesses are so easy to use that our students drill EPs many, many, many times (almost every ground briefing in AFF, PLUS several times between AFF and A-License.) If doing several AFF jumps in one day, EPs are drilled once in the morning rather than before EVERY jump.

What OUTCOME do you believe that the hanging harness adds to the training process? In other words.... what can the student trained in the hanging harness do that the student trained in a leaning harness cannot?


(This post was edited by GLIDEANGLE on Apr 12, 2012, 8:54 AM)


fcajump  (D 15598)

Apr 12, 2012, 9:46 AM
Post #3 of 25 (4585 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] "Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What OUTCOME do you believe that the hanging harness adds to the training process?

For me - the experience of being in a real harness, pulling a real handle against a real force that produced a real result (releasing the 3-ring and dropping a few inchest 'til the reserve risers took over) and having the harness shift from the change and then pulling a real reserve handle (with fake resistance) was much more informative to me as the student than I imagine a leaning harness would have been.

Do I know that my reserve pull ~25 jumps later would have been better/worse if I had only been trained on a leaning harness? Nope.

But my confidence level (shaky at best) for that first dive was, I believe, a little better for a much practice as possible with real gear.

I was the guy you saw always going to the plane with gear on to walk throught the exit when it was shut down (with instructor approval) to get more comfortable with what I was doing...

I know you sky-gods don't need realizm in your training, but us chicken-sh!ts need all we can get... Tongue

BUT I also agree 100% that the leaning harness gives easy access to practice many times even without an instructor. And that helps a lot too...

Smile
JW


iowa  (D 16855)

Apr 12, 2012, 9:47 AM
Post #4 of 25 (4584 views)
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Re: [fcajump] "Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

Could you please explain what a leaning harness is?

Never heard of it. I have an image in my head, but...


fcajump  (D 15598)

Apr 12, 2012, 9:56 AM
Post #5 of 25 (4575 views)
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Re: [iowa] "Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Could you please explain what a leaning harness is?

Never heard of it. I have an image in my head, but...

(hopefully someone has a picture for us...)
Roughly spaaking it is a pair of webbing strung from the ceiling to floor, with a cross strap at about chest height. When you stand behind and lean into these straps, they simulate the main lift webs and chest strap for a rig. The vertical straps have cut-away and reserve handles in the corresponding locations. These handles may (or may not) be connected to weighted lines to simulate resistance.

To augment this arrangement, some DZ's also have a belt that the student can wear with a simulated "bottom of container" with an old pilot-chute in a pouch for them to deploy.

Not sure if that helps, but as I say, hopefully someone has a picture to replace my 1000 words... Wink

JW


dthames  (B 37674)

Apr 12, 2012, 10:12 AM
Post #6 of 25 (4568 views)
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Re: [fcajump] "Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

I did my initial training in a leaning harness and as previouly stated, many, many times did we practice. But the first time I got to get in a hanging harness, I was pleased to have the chance to find out what the feel of pulling the cable with weight in it was like. I feel both have a place.

Dan


skyguyscott  (D 13458)

Apr 12, 2012, 9:48 PM
Post #7 of 25 (4460 views)
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Re: [dthames] "Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

The COOLEST simulation was the ParaSim set up with VR goggles, full motion simulated frame etc. ( http://www.parasim.com/#)

Whenever I have to train without a hanging harness, I inevitably get questions from FJS about where the toggles are, can they reach them, etc. Also, where else can a student practice kicking out of line twists? HHs also let you see how aggressive the student will be on the toggles, how much they flare, etc.


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Apr 14, 2012, 6:14 AM
Post #8 of 25 (4378 views)
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Re: [skyguyscott] "Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

Our leaning harnesses have toggles attached to weights via pulleys. Our students practice steer-ability checks, turns, & flare stroke with these toggles which give a fairly reasonable simulation of the amount of resistance the toggles will offer.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Apr 14, 2012, 1:50 PM
Post #9 of 25 (4336 views)
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Re: [skyguyscott] "Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.parasim.com/#

Sparky


PiLFy  (A License)

Apr 14, 2012, 2:09 PM
Post #10 of 25 (4334 views)
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Re: [fcajump] "Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

Hanging harnesses are more realistic. Leaning harnesses are faster for a conga line of recurrencies on Safety Days. Boobies hang better from a leaning harness.


bluetwo  (C License)

Apr 15, 2012, 2:36 AM
Post #11 of 25 (4293 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] "Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

One thing I think a hanging harness can do is really make it clear to students just how important the chest strap is. Yes that's completely obvious to anyone with more than one jump...

I know that info was put out in my SL course but apparently it isn't being briefed in all student courses.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Apr 25, 2012, 9:45 AM
Post #12 of 25 (4099 views)
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Re: [fcajump] "Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

Another set of things you find with a first jump student in a hanging (real) harness...

In a real jumpsuit, with alt, goggles, helmet, etc...

Can you see the Alt (or are the goggles causing problems with your glasses)?
Can you see the handle (or are your man-boobs in the way)?
What does a correctly fitted harness feel like (and why you shouldn't get on a plane until it does).
Why guys really don't want to cross their leg straps...
Can you see the toggles... no... on the BACK risers...

A leaning harness misses all these things that experienced jumpers don't even think about not knowing... (and telling a student is nothing like having then feel/see it for themselves.)

JW


snofun  (D 9411)

Sep 19, 2013, 9:04 AM
Post #13 of 25 (3495 views)
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Re: [fcajump] "Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

Just found out the Drop Zone where I work has not done hanging harness training for the last 2 months. Hope to change that back to full training on the first jump course, refresher training, and transition training. They still use the SOS release instead of 2 handle system. I feel the full harness training is essential for safety and confidence of the student and instructor before the student jumps.


airtwardo  (D License)

Sep 19, 2013, 10:21 AM
Post #14 of 25 (3442 views)
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Re: [snofun] "Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

snofun wrote:
Just found out the Drop Zone where I work has not done hanging harness training for the last 2 months. Hope to change that back to full training on the first jump course, refresher training, and transition training. They still use the SOS release instead of 2 handle system. I feel the full harness training is essential for safety and confidence of the student and instructor before the student jumps.

A friend went through AFF a couple years back at a DZ in Ca. ~ during some discussion it became apparent had hadn't been in a hanging harness.

We rigged one up in his garage and went through some drills, I could SEE the light bulb come on over his head.

Everything came together as far as what he'd been taught 'in classroom' and what it was in the real world.

That simple 20 minute drill in the garage answered questions, removed doubt & bolstered confidence way beyond any expectations.

WHY it wasn't a part of the actual training is beyond me...I'm not a current AFFI, but it seems like a shortcut in that area of training is a detrimental thing...slow down and do it 'right'!


PixieUK  (A License)

Sep 19, 2013, 11:01 AM
Post #15 of 25 (3420 views)
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Re: [fcajump] "Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

fcajump wrote:
And, yes... I know... I forgot some option that somebody wants included...

Lol - we have training vests, just the harness with cutaway pads and reserve handles but no cords /weights on them. So we can do the "Look - Locate - Cut - Away - Reserve - Arch" drills (or whatever words get used at different places, I think it used to be Peel - Pull - Punch which actually makes more sense to me!) any time, with or without an instructor.

I did hang in a harness briefly once but couldn't pull the cutaway pad or reserve handle or I would have fallen on the floor Tongue

We drill every day that we are planning to jump for AFF or consols as part of our briefing and I have also practised by myself. We have big laminated cards with photos of various malfunctions, nuisances (end cell closures / line twists / high slider) and a perfectly deployed canopy so they get shuffled and a random one is produced once we have done our 5 second count and checked the canopy.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Sep 19, 2013, 5:23 PM
Post #16 of 25 (3144 views)
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Re: [PixieUK] "Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

[quote "PixieUK.

I did hang in a harness briefly once but couldn't pull the cutaway pad or reserve handle or I would have fallen on the floor Tongue
.
That's a really shitty design and only marginally better than no hanging harness at allCrazy


phreeloader  (Student)

Sep 19, 2013, 9:21 PM
Post #17 of 25 (3043 views)
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Re: Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

i took a FJC back in 1999 at a small Cessna dropzone in Missouri and was put in a hanging harness and was taught "look-look-right-left" using both hands to cut away, then both to pull silver ... It was uncomfortable but was nice to get a feel for what was coming, and get a feel for where my toggles would be.

I only got 2 jumps (instructor deployed from 4k) before i ran out of time & money


Found some time and money this year and started AFF at a large turbine DZ in FL and was honestly surprised we didn't do a hanging harness as part of the FJC

On jump #18 I found myself under a canopy that insisted on turning right on opening (not violently, i could correct by pulling left toggle)... Looked up to see my right control line over the 1st 2 cells of my canopy... despite my best efforts to fix it, it wouldn't budge. So I cut away and was under my reserve at 4k

The reason i bring up my cut away is that since it had been 14 years since i had been in the hanging harness I had forgotten how much force it took to pull the cut away, not that it was difficult, but it wasn't effortless so I was glad i was taught to use both hands

however because i used both hands, and because my rental rig was equipped with a skyhook,I was already under my reserve by the time I got my hands on silver... not that it took long to get my hands on silver, I had my eyes on it before I ever pulled my cut away, the skyhook was just that fast. ... but it does make me want to challenge myself to be faster if i find myself in that position in the future


labrys  (D 29848)

Sep 20, 2013, 5:29 AM
Post #18 of 25 (2871 views)
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Re: [phreeloader] Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I had my eyes on it before I ever pulled my cut away, the skyhook was just that fast. ... but it does make me want to challenge myself to be faster if i find myself in that position in the future

In my opinion, a steady, "quick" but not rushed approach is better than trying to be faster. You're not likely to beat any type of RSL and trying to do that makes the primary focus of your procedure change. Your primary purpose is to execute your EPs as practiced and make sure you have a clean cutaway and pull your reserve handle. Practice it at a steady and careful pace and execute it at the same pace when you need to do it.

If your RSL beats you, fine. It did it's job. If your RSL fails for some reason then you're still fine.

Keep the focus of your EPs on getting the job done right, not beating your RSL.


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Sep 20, 2013, 7:23 AM
Post #19 of 25 (2829 views)
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Quote:
but it does make me want to challenge myself to be faster if i find myself in that position in the future

1. Why? How are you safer by beating the RSL.
2. It is unlikely that you can beat a correctly operating RSL.

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.


phreeloader  (Student)

Sep 20, 2013, 6:32 PM
Post #20 of 25 (2647 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

GLIDEANGLE wrote:
1. Why? How are you safer by beating the RSL.
2. It is unlikely that you can beat a correctly operating RSL.

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

I guess my thought process was that by trying to get my hands on silver faster next time it would distract me from subconsiously waiting to see if the skyhook was gonna do it's thing ... i mean i know NOT to do that... just want to keep the front of my mind from letting the back of my mind take over in a stressfull situation


freeflygirlz  (D License)

Oct 19, 2013, 12:56 PM
Post #21 of 25 (2198 views)
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Re: [fcajump] "Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting Topic!
if it has to be an either / or decision, for me it is 100% Hanging harness!!
there are different positive things as above mentioned, especially to make it as realistic as possible.
as soon as the Student showed a few good EPs, we start stressing him during his EP by shaking the harness quite hard as it could be on a very shaky malfunction. We watch out for any mistakes under stress. Only if he does a good job for a few times in a row, he passes FJC.

We don't have a Standing Trainer yet, but I have seen it somewhere else. I also see the pros as mentioned, fast, quick, everyone is invited to do a quick Training.

in the FJC the biggest Advantage would be fast rotation of the EP-training without too much physical stress on the Student. so he could first train the correct EP step by step in quite comfortable conditions before hanging in the very uncomfortable hanging harness.
for the instructors it would also be more relaxed not having to asamble the 3ring System 100 times on a day :-)

blue skies ffg


erdnarob  (D 364)

Oct 19, 2013, 1:48 PM
Post #22 of 25 (2156 views)
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What you say is so true that I have a hanging harness set up in my basement. And I have developed a way that you don't even have to open your reserve or used a temporary pin. The actual ripcord is put out of its pouch and folded under the MLW then held in place with masking tape. I use a dummy ripcord handle with several wraps of masking tape to make a pull resistance. Using an old mattress, you cut away and fall on the something soft enough. Simple and unexpensive. Dozens of people were trained on it with no regret. That provides the jumper with visualisation and muscles-brain memory of the action to do. Most of the people new on this suspended harness are so surprised when they drop after pulling their cut away handle. They have to repeat this exercice few times before having full control and pull their ripcord.


dpreguy  (D 835)

Oct 20, 2013, 8:43 AM
Post #23 of 25 (1842 views)
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Re: [fcajump] "Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

I regularly hang customers in my setup in their own rigs.
Ideally when they come in for repack. (I don't always see my customers, as they sometimes drop off when I am not there.)

I took a pair of Home Depot huge aluminum carabiners and removed the gate. Smoothed it all up and filed the gate notch to be oversized - so a packing rubber can fit into it when stretched. That's it.

I then "hook" insert the carabiner (now just a "C" shape) from the inside of the harness next to the jumper's neck, to the outside and secure it with a packing rubber so it won't fall off until it is weighted. They step on a chair and then when they step off they are hanging in their own parachute rig.

The usual yadda yadda with a fake cutaway pillow, fake ripcord (Just pull the real ones out and squash them behind the harness.) for a few times; then ending with the real ones, concentrating on the 'looking' part every time.

It would be nice if I would devise a release mechanism to simulate the harder pull on a cutaway when weighted, and to drop the jumper a few inches, but haven't done that yet.

I like this as it uses the jumper's own rig, isn't harmful to the rig and once they have donned their parachute, is on an off in a jiffy. My most experienced skydivers , with thousands of jumps, always request I do this when they get a repack. I offer it to all. I have been doing this for 5 or 6 years now.


dpreguy  (D 835)

Oct 20, 2013, 8:50 AM
Post #24 of 25 (1837 views)
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Re: [dpreguy] "Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

I would post a picture of the Home Depot 'biner setup but don't know how to do it. Have to learn how to do that someday.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 21, 2013, 9:34 PM
Post #25 of 25 (1671 views)
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Re: [phreeloader] Hanging" harness initial/recurrent training [In reply to] Can't Post

phreeloader wrote:
The reason i bring up my cut away is that since it had been 14 years since i had been in the hanging harness I had forgotten how much force it took to pull the cut away, not that it was difficult, but it wasn't effortless so I was glad i was taught to use both hands
I've never used two hands on a cutaway. I feel with a little refinement in technique it's easy to cutaway with one hand.

And that velcro on the handle. I've never felt that either! Laugh



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