Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING

 

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

caldefly  (C 36628)

Apr 13, 2012, 10:24 AM
Post #1 of 28 (4308 views)
Shortcut
TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING Can't Post

Can somebody with 500 jumps learn from a Tandem Master ( not an examiner ) how to jump tandems and work doing so without the factory rating ? This is in another country .... what is the policy from factories about it and what would be the consequences :::: thanks ... I want your opinions before i contact each specific factory


feuergnom  (D License)

Apr 13, 2012, 10:44 AM
Post #2 of 28 (4260 views)
Shortcut
Re: [caldefly] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

simple answer: NO!


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Apr 13, 2012, 10:52 AM
Post #3 of 28 (4245 views)
Shortcut
Re: [caldefly] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

Rig owners sign an agreement with the factory that they will only allowed factory-rated TIs to jump their tandem rigs. If rig owners violate that agreement, the factory can seize their tandem equipment.

This question came up a few years ago and my reply was "You should do a few jumps with a Vector Tandem Examiner."
He replied "But, but, but ..."
I replied: "you should do a few jumps with a Vector Tandem Examiner."

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner


DougH  (D License)

Apr 13, 2012, 12:00 PM
Post #4 of 28 (4193 views)
Shortcut
Re: [riggerrob] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't think of any reason, aside from financial cost cutting, that you couldn't get the prospective tandem instructor to a course, or bring a examiner to that individual.

A plane ticket to the US plus the cost of the ratings course pales in comparison to the cost of injuring a student with an unrated TI

If the tandem instructor who is going to be teaching this individual is has the experience to teach new instructors why doesn't the instructor go through to process of becoming an examiner?


Abedy  (D 10153)

Apr 13, 2012, 12:18 PM
Post #5 of 28 (4172 views)
Shortcut
Re: [caldefly] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

There have been tandem fatalities with tandem pilots who weren't trained properly or were grounded. This alone is a valid reason to say "NO"
TI examiners know how to guide you through the course and how to teach you. Another reason.
Third reason: If anything happens even if it wasn't your fault, even the worst lawyer will slash you.


skypuppy  (D 347)

Apr 13, 2012, 4:01 PM
Post #6 of 28 (4054 views)
Shortcut
Re: [caldefly] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

As rob said, a cdn dzo once lent a rig to someone without realizing he didn't have that factory rating, even though he did have a rating for another system. Things went bad, the student was hurt seriously and he made payments to her every year for the rest of his life....


irishrigger  (D 297)

Apr 13, 2012, 7:41 PM
Post #7 of 28 (3987 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skypuppy] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

i dont know which country this might be occuring in. but i definitly agree,it s not a very good idea.
every potential tandem master should be trained by an examiner.
however due to weight issues i might let another tandem master go in front as a passenger, and i like to do that on as many training jumps as possible. i dont particular agree if someone has only 100 jumps that they can be used as a guiney pig so to speak. i rather have another tandem master in front for those.with an examiner filming it with outside camera
i might also get another tandem master to show him how to pack,if i am unavailable for some reason.
but no jump takes place unless the briefing was done by a tandem examiner. and all the ground school must be done by a tandem examiner.
if this was to happen in the US and an accident accured i am sure that every lawyer will be cueing up to take that case.
bottom line its not a good idea and should not be done and most definite not with any live paying passengers!!!!
my 2cents
rodger


(This post was edited by irishrigger on Apr 13, 2012, 7:44 PM)


cloudtramp  (D License)

Apr 14, 2012, 6:06 PM
Post #8 of 28 (3766 views)
Shortcut
Re: [caldefly] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

Depends what country your in. Wink


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Apr 15, 2012, 5:00 AM
Post #9 of 28 (3689 views)
Shortcut
Re: [riggerrob] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi

Tandem rig owners are sign also for using TANDEM H/C MFG. APPROVED RESERVE & MAIN canopies - does all are doing that ? NO

Does the Tandem systems Mfg. / National Org. are doing anything about that - NO

Does T I/E's, TI's, Riggers, DZO's are not using / serving these systems packed with all kind of main & reserves ? YES, they does.

A new TI must be trained by a CURRENT T I/E only & by the Tandem system Mfg. book & training system with APPROVED canopies & AAD in the system.

cheers


(This post was edited by RIGGER on Apr 15, 2012, 5:45 AM)


Deisel  (D 31661)

Apr 15, 2012, 2:44 PM
Post #10 of 28 (3565 views)
Shortcut
Re: [caldefly] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

Also keep in mind that 500 jumps does not qualify you for a TM rating. You must have a D and those are two different things.


BMFin

Apr 15, 2012, 3:33 PM
Post #11 of 28 (3553 views)
Shortcut
Re: [riggerrob] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Rig owners sign an agreement with the factory that they will only allowed factory-rated TIs to jump their tandem rigs. If rig owners violate that agreement, the factory can seize their tandem equipment.

This question came up a few years ago and my reply was "You should do a few jumps with a Vector Tandem Examiner."
He replied "But, but, but ..."
I replied: "you should do a few jumps with a Vector Tandem Examiner."

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner

The gear manufacturer is very unlikely to succeed in any legal remedies for a seizure of someones personal property in another country.

Also, lots of tandem gear are bought used, therefore the 2nd hand owner wouldnt even be a participant in such a contract.

Im not saying tandem jumping without a mfg rating would be wise, Im just saying that theres not much the mfg can do about it.


swoopgaz  (E 1964)

Apr 15, 2012, 5:09 PM
Post #12 of 28 (3509 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cloudtramp] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Depends what country your in. Wink

Indeed it does. Our ratings are issued by the APF (australian parachute federation) not the manufacturer. We have our own examiners that are appointed by the APF.


spootch  (C License)

Apr 15, 2012, 10:07 PM
Post #13 of 28 (3446 views)
Shortcut
Re: [feuergnom] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
simple answer: NO!

agreed. but it makes you wonder, if both jumpers are experienced and are not jumping for hire (fun jumping) are they really breaking any rules ?

In any case, a person should have the blessing of the T I/E and the mfg.


feuergnom  (D License)

Apr 16, 2012, 12:32 AM
Post #14 of 28 (3415 views)
Shortcut
Re: [spootch] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
simple answer: NO!

agreed. but it makes you wonder, if both jumpers are experienced and are not jumping for hire (fun jumping) are they really breaking any rules ?

In any case, a person should have the blessing of the T I/E and the mfg.

doesn't mak any fucking difference in my book. if you look into all the known tandem fatalities you will find more than one case where "untrained funjumpers" got into deep shit and killed themselves and/or the pax. so no matter who, where, when, why: doing tandems without proper training by an I/E is the worst idea you can have. and if there is no Strong, PDF, Racer I/E around go for he other company - there's loads of them


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Apr 16, 2012, 3:55 AM
Post #15 of 28 (3387 views)
Shortcut
Re: [swoopgaz] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi

I will answer as a UPT/USPA T I/E:

1.The TI can be approved & hold a National TI rating (APF, BPA, Israeli & so)
2.The TRAINING OF ALL TI's must be done by the MFG. APPROVED T I/E which is the base for being a NATIONAL T I/E.
3.According to UPT there is no such a rating National T I/E without holding a CURRENT UPT T I/E rating.

ANY APF, BPA, any National Org. T I/E must be APPROVED by the Tandem system Mfg.

Maybe the legal system in your country "let it go" but it is NOT APPROVED by the Tandem Mfg.

Cheers


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Apr 16, 2012, 3:58 AM
Post #16 of 28 (3385 views)
Shortcut
Re: [feuergnom] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi

I vote for your saying but some tandem mfg. DOES NOT have T I/E or do any TI's training - they leave it to the National Skydiving Org.

They have the manual but does not like to be involved in the training.

Cheers


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Apr 16, 2012, 7:15 AM
Post #17 of 28 (3322 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BMFin] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

Another angle is that manufacturers can simply refuse to sell spare parts to tandem owners who allow "non-certified TIs" to jump their equipment.

I defy any rigger to operate (safely) a tandem rig - for more than 1,000 jumps - without replacing a few parts.


BMFin

Apr 16, 2012, 9:11 AM
Post #18 of 28 (3297 views)
Shortcut
Re: [riggerrob] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

And you think that would force them to stop?


robinheid  (D 5533)

Apr 16, 2012, 11:41 AM
Post #19 of 28 (3248 views)
Shortcut
Re: [feuergnom] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
simple answer: NO!

agreed. but it makes you wonder, if both jumpers are experienced and are not jumping for hire (fun jumping) are they really breaking any rules ?

In any case, a person should have the blessing of the T I/E and the mfg.

doesn't mak any ****ing difference in my book. if you look into all the known tandem fatalities you will find more than one case where "untrained funjumpers" got into deep shit and killed themselves and/or the pax. so no matter who, where, when, why: doing tandems without proper training by an I/E is the worst idea you can have. and if there is no Strong, PDF, Racer I/E around go for he other company - there's loads of them

Where do you get your data?

IIRC, one of the more disconcerting things about most tandem fatalities is that they involve highly experienced tandem masters more often than they do lower-time or outlaw tandem masters (the recent 10,000-jump+ Jim Fonnesbeck/passenger fatality = Exhibit A for the affirmative).

The accuracy of your assertion aside, the bottom line is that the liability associated with tandem accidents, even in countries other than the sue-happy US of A, is such that any DZO or airplane operator who knowingly let's an outlaw tandem master jump with a paying non-jumper customer is too dumb to be flying airplanes or runnig a parachute center.

A case in point was the Fumio Kubo fatality in Japan about 10 years ago. I forget the details but IIRC something in his paperwork wasn't quite right and that, along with some Japan-centric legal issues, resulted in the closure of the DZ, which had operated for years and was run by one of Japan's most, senior, respected and high-profile jumpers.

44
Cool


theonlyski  (D License)

Apr 16, 2012, 5:11 PM
Post #20 of 28 (3164 views)
Shortcut
Re: [robinheid] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
simple answer: NO!

agreed. but it makes you wonder, if both jumpers are experienced and are not jumping for hire (fun jumping) are they really breaking any rules ?

In any case, a person should have the blessing of the T I/E and the mfg.

doesn't mak any ****ing difference in my book. if you look into all the known tandem fatalities you will find more than one case where "untrained funjumpers" got into deep shit and killed themselves and/or the pax. so no matter who, where, when, why: doing tandems without proper training by an I/E is the worst idea you can have. and if there is no Strong, PDF, Racer I/E around go for he other company - there's loads of them

Where do you get your data?

There are incident reports in the back of the Vector2 tandem and SIGMA manuals that show untrained instructors in the report.


feuergnom  (D License)

Apr 17, 2012, 7:47 AM
Post #21 of 28 (3050 views)
Shortcut
Re: [robinheid] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
simple answer: NO!

agreed. but it makes you wonder, if both jumpers are experienced and are not jumping for hire (fun jumping) are they really breaking any rules ?

In any case, a person should have the blessing of the T I/E and the mfg.

doesn't mak any ****ing difference in my book. if you look into all the known tandem fatalities you will find more than one case where "untrained funjumpers" got into deep shit and killed themselves and/or the pax. so no matter who, where, when, why: doing tandems without proper training by an I/E is the worst idea you can have. and if there is no Strong, PDF, Racer I/E around go for he other company - there's loads of them

Where do you get your data?

IIRC, one of the more disconcerting things about most tandem fatalities is that they involve highly experienced tandem masters more often than they do lower-time or outlaw tandem masters (the recent 10,000-jump+ Jim Fonnesbeck/passenger fatality = Exhibit A for the affirmative).

The accuracy of your assertion aside, the bottom line is that the liability associated with tandem accidents, even in countries other than the sue-happy US of A, is such that any DZO or airplane operator who knowingly let's an outlaw tandem master jump with a paying non-jumper customer is too dumb to be flying airplanes or runnig a parachute center.

A case in point was the Fumio Kubo fatality in Japan about 10 years ago. I forget the details but IIRC something in his paperwork wasn't quite right and that, along with some Japan-centric legal issues, resulted in the closure of the DZ, which had operated for years and was run by one of Japan's most, senior, respected and high-profile jumpers.

44
Cool


when i started my training my I/E hand me the complete list of all tandem fatalities - and to tell you the truth: at that time it was a difficult read because the summaries showed exactly whar can go wrong when you start the dicision tree at the wrong end.... and IIRC there are at least three fatalities with untrained/improperly trained/non-rated T/I's. I have th list somewhere on my harddrive, but since its in german it won't be of any use. I guess you have similar lists as well.

again IIRC one of the fatalities involved a greek "Ti"

to your point that the last one was a highly exerienced TI: This showed me once more that absolutly NOBODY is bullet-proof and ahead of the game all the time. and that's the exact reason I decided to quit to do tandems...

Edit to add: I hope I have still (a) valid point(s) even if I don't do tandems any more Smile


(This post was edited by feuergnom on Apr 17, 2012, 7:49 AM)


robinheid  (D 5533)

Apr 17, 2012, 3:51 PM
Post #22 of 28 (2949 views)
Shortcut
Re: [theonlyski] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
simple answer: NO!

agreed. but it makes you wonder, if both jumpers are experienced and are not jumping for hire (fun jumping) are they really breaking any rules ?

In any case, a person should have the blessing of the T I/E and the mfg.

doesn't mak any ****ing difference in my book. if you look into all the known tandem fatalities you will find more than one case where "untrained funjumpers" got into deep shit and killed themselves and/or the pax. so no matter who, where, when, why: doing tandems without proper training by an I/E is the worst idea you can have. and if there is no Strong, PDF, Racer I/E around go for he other company - there's loads of them

Where do you get your data?

There are incident reports in the back of the Vector2 tandem and SIGMA manuals that show untrained instructors in the report.

Okay, thanks. Guess I tend to remember the untrained fatalities less than the highly experienced fatalities because the former aren't as systemically problematic as the latter.

Nice to know too that a tandem fatality list is required reading for the rating (IIRC, when I got tandem rating in 1986, there were at that point no tandem fatalities to list).

44
Cool


(This post was edited by robinheid on Apr 17, 2012, 3:52 PM)


piisfish

Apr 18, 2012, 8:00 AM
Post #23 of 28 (2855 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Deisel] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Also keep in mind that 500 jumps does not qualify you for a TM rating. You must have a D and those are two different things.
do you think every country has a "License Letter System" ?
For example Switzerland has only 1 type of license for regular jumpers,You have a license, and that's it. Then some kind of proficiency license, for example Instructor, AFFI, Rigger, Tandem pilot etc. . No A, B C D, FF or whatever.
To be able to form new tandem pilots here, you need to hold a valid jumper license, plus a tandem pilot license, plus an instructor license.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Apr 24, 2012, 6:52 AM
Post #24 of 28 (2402 views)
Shortcut
Re: [piisfish] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
do you think every country has a "License Letter System" ?
For example Switzerland has only 1 type of license for regular jumpers,

Switzerland is unusual in that respect. And people can't assume that everyone lives under the US's rules.

It is a little ironic though, given that the FAI is headquartered in Switzerland, and that the FAI has had a set of licenses from A through D as a standard for the last decade.

(As piisfish will know, national organizations are free to do their own thing, but the FAI's recommendations have caused some countries to adjust their licenses to align more closely with the FAI.)

(FF license, piisfish? Only riggers will understand that joke.)Wink


feuergnom  (D License)

Apr 24, 2012, 12:39 PM
Post #25 of 28 (2346 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pchapman] TANDEM JUMPS NO RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

austria has also only one license, but you can still apply for a FAI-one (A-D) if you want (or have) to

afaik its the same in germany


First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Tandem Skydiving

 


Search for (options)