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CYPRES 2 announces selectable activation altitude

 

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FlyingRadio  (D License)

Apr 13, 2012, 8:03 AM
Post #1 of 33 (4666 views)
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CYPRES 2 announces selectable activation altitude Can't Post

In the April 2012 issue of Parachutist there is an announcement of a CYPRES 2 user-selectable activation altitude increase in increments of 100' (30 m) up to 900'.

There's currently not much information about how this new feature works, if it takes effect at next servicing, etc; the cypres.cc website says that more information will be published as the feature becomes effective.

It will be interesting to see how this feature is displayed when active, and if/how it works with a landing elevation offset (when the landing area is higher/lower than takeoff.)

For those that don't get Parachutist:
Quote:
CYPRES 2 Announces User-Selectable Activation Altitude

Airtec GmbH, manufacturer of the CYPRES 2 automatic activation device, recently announced that the product now offers users the option of increasing the activation altitude in nine increments of approximately 100 feet (30 meters) each. The activation altitude setting remains until changed by the user and is noted on the display to avoid confusion. The company recommends that jumpers consult with their harness-and-container, main canopy and reserve canopy manufacturers prior to deciding to change the activation altitude and warns that if a jumper opens low, a two-canopies-out scenario is more likely at higher settings. Details are available at cypres.cc.


Arvoitus  (D 3917)

Apr 13, 2012, 8:26 AM
Post #2 of 33 (4601 views)
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Re: [FlyingRadio] CYPRES 2 announces selectable activation altitude [In reply to] Can't Post

How does this differ from just changing the altitude reference, which will achieve the exact same outcome?


Premier Remster  (C License)

Apr 13, 2012, 8:33 AM
Post #3 of 33 (4595 views)
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In reply to:
How does this differ from just changing the altitude reference, which will achieve the exact same outcome?

That function resets itself (or more precisely re-calibrates) on every jump. RTFM.


BrianM  (D 661)

Apr 13, 2012, 9:40 AM
Post #4 of 33 (4547 views)
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In reply to:
How does this differ from just changing the altitude reference, which will achieve the exact same outcome?

Changing the reference altitude will affect arming altitude, no fly zones (see page 32 of the CYPRES 2 manual), and detection of having landed (though according to the manual, that last one will only happen if landing higher than the set DZ elevation). It may also affect other algorithms that none of us know about. Changing the activation altitude seems like a much better method than changing the reference altitude.


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Apr 13, 2012, 9:42 AM
Post #5 of 33 (4543 views)
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I predict more two outs.


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 13, 2012, 9:59 AM
Post #6 of 33 (4524 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] CYPRES 2 announces selectable activation altitude [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I predict more two outs.

Maybe for a time, but the overall trend seems to be higher break off and deployment.

Slide the scale up 300' and yes there will be some getting use to, but if it saves a few lives...Cool

Some of the major rig manufacturers have wanted this for a while and with good reason, the current setting is on the hairy edge of survival in certain circumstances if the main is still in the pack tray and everything in it is jam packed tight.

Not to mention the variances to the sensor due to body position, and the over-all speed if still head-down at 700.


I say...THESE days if your at a grand and dumping the main, a two out is the least of your concerns. Sly


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Apr 13, 2012, 10:44 AM
Post #7 of 33 (4500 views)
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Quote:
Maybe for a time, but the overall trend seems to be higher break off and deployment.

Quote:
say...THESE days if your at a grand and dumping the main, a two out is the least of your concerns.

Agreed. But most of the people I know who have had AAD-induced two outs have them not because they intended to pull at or around AAD spooking altitude, but because they've partially or totally lost altitude awareness and wind up tossing their main somewhere below 2 grand but still above a grand (e.g., somewhere in the AAD-spooking territory). If people raise their AAD firing altitude, it only makes those situations more likely where you've tossed your main at a somewhat reasonable (if a little low) altitude, but your AAD does what it should do and cuts the reserve loop ... and now there's two canopies.

However, for the "true save" due to a jumper's being incapacitated (or never recovering altitude awareness), I think there's a lot of positives to raising the firing altitude.


Divalent  (C 40494)

Apr 13, 2012, 12:42 PM
Post #8 of 33 (4425 views)
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In reply to:
Agreed. But most of the people I know who have had AAD-induced two outs have them ... because they've partially or totally lost altitude awareness and wind up tossing their main somewhere below 2 grand but still above a grand (e.g., somewhere in the AAD-spooking territory).

Of course it's a user-adjustable setting, so one needn't change it, but one would hope that those that change it are smart enough to factor that into their planned deployment altitude. Adding 200 ft to the setting would rob you of an additional second of "altitude unawareness".

BTW, around the farm there are a couple of hills that range up to about 150 ft higher (and which are forested as well, so approaching 200 ft object height). If my cypres fired while I was over those, I'd probably appreciate having an extra 200 ft to maneuver (or for my reserve to open).


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Apr 13, 2012, 1:01 PM
Post #9 of 33 (4405 views)
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Re: [Divalent] CYPRES 2 announces selectable activation altitude [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
BTW, around the farm there are a couple of hills that range up to about 150 ft higher (and which are forested as well, so approaching 200 ft object height). If my cypres fired while I was over those, I'd probably appreciate having an extra 200 ft to maneuver (or for my reserve to open).

You would appreciate being alive in the first place. If you watch YouTube videos of Cypres fires, people are spending 15 seconds under open reserve. 15 seconds x 16 ft/second (descent rate) = 240 ft AGL opening altitude.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Apr 13, 2012, 1:03 PM
Post #10 of 33 (4402 views)
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In reply to:
Not to mention the variances to the sensor due to body position, and the over-all speed if still head-down at 700.

Cypres fires at approx 1100 feet in head-down.


huge

Apr 13, 2012, 2:28 PM
Post #11 of 33 (4346 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] CYPRES 2 announces selectable activation altitude [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Cypres fires at approx 1100 feet in head-down.
Care to elaborate that one?

Are you talking about the fact that cypres is out of the burble when head down? Is this documented somewhere or based on experience and/or assumptions? I have heard some speculation but haven't seen anything that isn't based on rumors and guesses.


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 13, 2012, 6:32 PM
Post #12 of 33 (4280 views)
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In reply to:
I predict more two outs.

I predict lawyers using this feature to point out negligence by any school who doesn't have them set to the maximum height possible.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Apr 13, 2012, 6:40 PM
Post #13 of 33 (4276 views)
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Re: [huge] CYPRES 2 announces selectable activation altitude [In reply to] Can't Post

It's based on personal discussion over 20 plus years with airtec and ssk. Usually they quote 1000' when not in the burble.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Apr 13, 2012, 6:51 PM
Post #14 of 33 (4263 views)
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Re: [Arvoitus] CYPRES 2 announces selectable activation altitude [In reply to] Can't Post

You need to read you manual. Setting an offset for a landing elevation different from the take off/turn on altitude changes the reference that ALL the function that depend on pressure altitude use. A Cypres turns off at 130', won't work until your above 1500', may activate if you fly below the offset altitude after being above it. All of this applies to the offset altitude. It will also rest after 1.5 hours to original reference altitude when turned on.

NONE of this happens with changing the activation altitude. This remains until changed. Doesn't change the 130', the 1500'.

For example if you use the offset to add 1000' to the activation altitude it will now also turn off at 1130'. Not something you want.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Apr 13, 2012, 7:09 PM
Post #15 of 33 (4253 views)
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Airtec/SSk actually let the folks at the last PIA business meeting in Feb in Daytona Beach know about this. PIA had been ready to petition the AAD manufacturers to raise their activation altitude in response to changes in gear since Cypres and so a lesser extent Vigil were introduced. Reserves are being designed to open slower, still within TSO but nearer the upper limit, gear is tighter, people are going faster, etc. Over the last decade or so there have been several reserves activated by AADs AND by ripcords that should have had time to open but haven't. Many in PIA and other believe the activation altitude should be high.

By Airtec making it user adjustable an owner can now set it higher if they desire. You can ignore it if you want. For those of us willing to get out at 2000' we can leave it at 750'. For those who are opening at 3000 or 3500' you may want to give your reserve more time to open. And yourself more time to land it. Reserves for the most part are supposed to open in three seconds. But three seconds from 750' at belly terminal is under 200', depending on your math. Its ment to be a last chance but if you've stuffed your reserve fuller than it's supposed to be, or your main, you may want to move it up.

This way Airtec doesn't have the responsibility of choosing what is right for you. You get to choose. But you will need to do the math to back you pack opening altitude up starting with the activation altitude, buffer altitude usually quoted at 1000', canopy opening distance (200 to 1000 feet depending on make/model).


councilman24  (D 8631)

Apr 13, 2012, 7:17 PM
Post #16 of 33 (4247 views)
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Re: [FlyingRadio] CYPRES 2 announces selectable activation altitude [In reply to] Can't Post

From AirTec

"User selectable activation altitude
As soon as the new feature (see below) will be effective, there will be more information here on the CYPRES website.

CYPRES 2 User-Selectable Activation Altitude
CYPRES 2 now offers users the option of increasing the activation altitude up to 9 steps of approximately 100 feet (30 meters) each. The activation altitude setting increase (1-9) remains until changed, and is noted on the CYPRES display to avoid confusion about the activation altitude selected. See for further details.
The decision to increase the activation altitude, and by how much, has to be taken by the user, preferably in consultation with the reserve & main canopy and harness / container manufacturers. Warning: The higher the activation altitude, the more likely is a two canopy out scenario on low main openings.
Because of the variables involved, it is the user who bears all responsibility and consequences of his activation altitude setting. Airtec GmbH & Co. KG, the manufacturer of the CYPRES device, does not take any responsibilities thereof."

Here is the answer about display. Landing offset will function just as it does. Firing altitude will just be what you set it, whether offset or not.


SethInMI  (A 47765)

Dec 6, 2012, 12:29 PM
Post #17 of 33 (3701 views)
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Re: [FlyingRadio] CYPRES 2 announces selectable activation altitude [In reply to] Can't Post

I tried to find some info on cypres.cc about this, and I downloaded the latest manual which does not have anything on it.

Anyone have a manual?

I'm just curious.

Seth


pchapman  (D 1014)

Dec 6, 2012, 3:02 PM
Post #18 of 33 (3585 views)
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Re: [SethInMI] CYPRES 2 announces selectable activation altitude [In reply to] Can't Post

Good point.

At http://www.cypres-usa.com/, there's "CYPRES User Selectable Activation Altitude" April 2012, which links to
http://www.cypres.cc/...emid=178&lang=en

But that is the info that has been in this thread already, and makes it sound like the new feature hasn't yet been implemented.

So is it available currently or not? Anyone asked SSK or Airtec?

(As much as I like Cypres' functionality, additional future modes would be so much easier for users to adopt if the Cypres had a dot matrix display like the Vigil. )


(This post was edited by pchapman on Dec 6, 2012, 3:03 PM)


dgw  (C License)

Dec 7, 2012, 11:38 AM
Post #19 of 33 (3404 views)
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Not yet available. I sent in a unit for maintenance (its still with Airtec) and requested an activation altitude change. The feature, Airtec advised, is not currently available.


SethInMI  (A 47765)

Dec 7, 2012, 1:44 PM
Post #20 of 33 (3345 views)
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In reply to:
Not yet available. I sent in a unit for maintenance (its still with Airtec) and requested an activation altitude change. The feature, Airtec advised, is not currently available.

In a way you answered one of my questions, "was this for new units only or a retrofitable firmware change?". Sounds like it is available for older units. I bought mine in 2005 so the 8 year is due next year, maybe it will be available then.

Seth


GalFisk  (D 23239)

Dec 10, 2012, 7:17 AM
Post #21 of 33 (3137 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] CYPRES 2 announces selectable activation altitude [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I predict more two outs.

I predict lawyers using this feature to point out negligence by any school who doesn't have them set to the maximum height possible.

The Student Cypres already has a higher activation altitude.

Do you know if this feature be for Expert/Swoop Cypres only, or for Student and Tandem as well?


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Dec 10, 2012, 10:06 AM
Post #22 of 33 (3072 views)
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Re: [councilman24] CYPRES 2 announces selectable activation altitude [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
PIA had been ready to petition the AAD manufacturers to raise their activation altitude in response to changes in gear since Cypres and so a lesser extent Vigil were introduced. Reserves are being designed to open slower, still within TSO but nearer the upper limit, gear is tighter, people are going faster, etc. Over the last decade or so there have been several reserves activated by AADs AND by ripcords that should have had time to open but haven't. Many in PIA and other believe the activation altitude should be high.

Not this manufacturer. This is maddness. Try this on for size. You are on a big way everybody has a CYPRES and each person has set their own altitude. Some could be as high as 1500 feet. The unit raises the firing altitude 100 feet for each advance, up to 1500 feet. I don't want to be there.

I predicted this was going to happen. We did a poll about a year ago. The response was in favor of the rig manufacturers fixing their problem. They don't know how. This won't solve the problem. It will delay root cause definition for a few more years as the manufacturers who make rigs which will not deploy in 300 feet continue to sell defective products.
If the pilot chute won't pull the bag out more altitude will not help.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Dec 10, 2012, 11:20 AM
Post #23 of 33 (3025 views)
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In reply to:

The Student Cypres already has a higher activation altitude.

Do you know if this feature be for Expert/Swoop Cypres only, or for Student and Tandem as well?

Only for partial malfunctions:

Specifically designed for student requirements. It will activate when the rate of descent exceeds 29mph (13m/sec). The activation altitude, however, is split. In the case of rate of descent being equal to that of freefall, the opening altitude is at approx. 750ft, as with Expert Cypres. However, should the rate of descent be lower than that of freefall but still above the limit of 29mph (e.g. with partially opened canopy), then Student Cypres activates when the altitude decreases below 1000 ft AGL


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Dec 10, 2012, 11:56 AM
Post #24 of 33 (2999 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] CYPRES 2 announces selectable activation altitude [In reply to] Can't Post

And I have seen this not work as expected on a Vigil in student mode. I watched a student release a single toggle and then did nothing and rode the spinning canopy to the ground. The student was lucky that they ended up going straight into a woods and the canopy caught the a tree and brought them to a stop since the descent speed was less than the firing speed but still high enough to be fatal if they had hit the ground like that.


Deyan  (D 322)

Dec 10, 2012, 12:28 PM
Post #25 of 33 (2966 views)
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Unlike CYPRES, Vigil has single firing speed/altitude for the student mode.

3.3.2. ôSTUDENTö Mode
The Vigil« releases at 1040 Ft. (317 meters) and below till 150 Ft. (46 meters),
if the freefall speed is equal or superior to 20 m/sec. (45 mph or 72 km/h)*


20 m/sec is quite high rate of descent. Most likely a big student canopy will not reach that speed with only one toggle released


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