Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach?

 

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matt002

Apr 3, 2012, 2:09 PM
Post #26 of 68 (1495 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

The technique that you are using may some times feel safe, as you describe having to hold the fronts down for quite some some time after the turn, you are probably finishing the turn quite high.
The truth is that when you are low after the turn, and eventually, probably soon at the stage you are at, you will be low.
You will have the incorrect muscle memory by continuing with your current practice.
I have seen a guy at my DZ hit the the ground very hard using your technique, he probably let up his front risers about a second before hitting the ground, be very careful of this.
You are right when you say that the responses you would get at the DZ would be very different to what you have got on here, if you jumped at my DZ I would have a idea of where you are at in your canopy progression and skills and would be able to give you some coaching on how structure your progression and coach you on the techniques you will need to do this, if I tried to do this on here, I would not be able to cover enough of the essentials.
Taken out of context, that advice would put you at risk rather than help you.

Edit to add:
The structure I was taught on my very first HP canopy coaching course is the same one i still use now whenever I downsize, change canopy or want to learn a new rotation, eight years later, I make that pretty good value for money.


(This post was edited by matt002 on Apr 3, 2012, 2:58 PM)


buff  (D 30567)

Apr 10, 2012, 10:38 PM
Post #27 of 68 (1363 views)
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Re: [craigbey] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yea, I was thinking Sangi too as I read thru the thread.

Then there was the guy before Sangi that Sangi was told to use as an example. He's dead. I forgot his name because Sangi lived and posted video. So goes the forum.

And the hampster keeps the wheel going round and round.


artard  (B License)

Apr 11, 2012, 10:53 AM
Post #28 of 68 (1296 views)
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Re: [buff] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've only been skydiving for 3 years so still don't know shit but it's ridiculous how predictably history repeats itself. No matter how many people pound in there will always be others who believe they are exceptionally skilled and above following a proper progression.


(This post was edited by artard on Apr 11, 2012, 10:56 AM)


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 11, 2012, 12:16 PM
Post #29 of 68 (1271 views)
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Re: [buff] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yea, I was thinking Sangi too as I read thru the thread.

Then there was the guy before Sangi that Sangi was told to use as an example. He's dead. I forgot his name because Sangi lived and posted video. So goes the forum.

And the hampster keeps the wheel going round and round.

Ted Nelson


Willi91  (E 369)

Apr 11, 2012, 1:11 PM
Post #30 of 68 (1255 views)
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Re: [buff] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

Even though it is true that too many people pound in and get injured or die and maybe because they overestimated their skills, it is sad that it's impossible to ask a question in this forum without being compared with a whole lot of guys who got hurt. I agree that the best way to achieve good skills in canopy piloting is to get coaching at the dropzone from a coach who sees you fly, but I think it is a shame that curiousity is a sin here. The guy asks a question. Why not guide him in a proper way instead of telling him that he's going to die?


beowulf  (C License)

Apr 11, 2012, 2:18 PM
Post #31 of 68 (1245 views)
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Re: [Willi91] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Why not guide him in a proper way instead of telling him that he's going to die?

The correct answer is to get a qualified canopy coach and not try to learn to swoop from the internet. He apparently didn't like the answer.


5.samadhi

Apr 11, 2012, 2:53 PM
Post #32 of 68 (1233 views)
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Re: [beowulf] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

you're into making snap judgments aren't you?

Did you miss the part where I said I've received coaching and will continue getting coaching? I also didnt really ask a question, merely laid out my landing pattern progression and asked for thoughts about it...to you know...talk about what we are into.

Kinda what internet forums are....about.

I never asked for internet coaching...but keep on rocking out guy! Cool


beowulf  (C License)

Apr 11, 2012, 3:05 PM
Post #33 of 68 (1229 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

Call it whatever you want, but it still adds up to online coaching.

How is anyone supposed to critique your landing with only your description?

Also to add, I didn't miss the part where you said you did receive coaching. So to elaborate go talk to your canopy coach instead of asking for advice online.


(This post was edited by beowulf on Apr 11, 2012, 3:07 PM)


5.samadhi

Apr 11, 2012, 3:14 PM
Post #34 of 68 (1225 views)
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Re: [beowulf] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

well fair enough beowulf, thats cool if you dont want to talk about landing a parachute.

i wanted to talk about it, you know, in the swooping forum, but i'll just reserve talking about it for when im on the dropzone i guess Tongue

and to the ones with proclamations of death. yes im very much like sangi, with my 90 degree front riser turn initiated extremely high and double fronts to land. its just a roll of the dice each jump when im gonna go in doing that isnt it!!! Sly

now lets make another thread about removeable sliders to make the forum even more interesting.Crazy


DocPop  (C License)

Apr 11, 2012, 4:27 PM
Post #35 of 68 (1207 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
and to the ones with proclamations of death. yes im very much like sangi, with my 90 degree front riser turn initiated extremely high and double fronts to land. its just a roll of the dice each jump when im gonna go in doing that isnt it!!!

Claiming you are different from those who have gone (in) before you is a cardinal sign that you are at risk.

Take advice from someone who has been that guy and don't be a dick.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Apr 11, 2012, 6:24 PM
Post #36 of 68 (1184 views)
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Re: [DocPop] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

The problem is that there's no way to tell if the person asking the question is a DIGIT or just a "curious guy". People often take answers that are meant to be informational to be some form of approval for the action that the person decides they want to read. It's a lot safer to fill a thread with warning and cautionary tales and hope that the OP will actually talk to someone about it because saying they did doesn't mean anything.

Personally I ask everyone I know stuff before I come to this forum and ask. The difference can be seen in the way the OP asks the question and the way they respond to negative comments. "Get coaching" is the same thing as telling a student who asks a question to talk to their instructor. The person on the ground not only will know the OP but will also be able to gauge their attitude as well as their understanding of the subject.


buff  (D 30567)

Apr 11, 2012, 6:26 PM
Post #37 of 68 (1181 views)
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Re: [DocPop] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

DocPop! Didnt know you were still around. Good for you and hope that your progression is going well.

To the OP, the way to introduce yourself is put on your big boy pants and pull them all the way up. Clench the waistband in your teeth. This serves a dual purpose, it allows the ears to hear and keeps the hands free so you can type instead of holding your crotch.

Notice you cant open your mouth without showing your ass? Good, most of these guys dont like crack and they will let you know who does.

AggieDave already gave you good advice. Take it. Most of the best advice here comes from guys that have names that start with a D or an I. The best way to begin is who you are, where you are jumping, wingloading, canopy courses taken and with whom, current coach you are working with, and where you are at in the progression. It is called establishing your bona-fides or your criculum vitae if your yhe academic type.

Once done, I think you will find the cc place quite nice. Just showing up pulling on risers doesnt cut nuts here. I have no problem telling you that Ive started from square one three times on three canopies, I have taken the basic course with Swanson at SDD, passed on Tommy Dillibacs course at a DZ that does not allow HP turns (probably a mistake), and then took the advanced course at Dallas. Have not jumped since Oct.

Nobody here would advise that I should go out and bust a 270 tomorrow. Sure I could set an alarm in my ear based upon all my altitude notes and crap depending on where I decide to do it and could probably pull it off but not being current and having a recent sight picture it would more than likley get me into the corner and require a dig out.

So the tandems and whuffos may go wow but those in tje know will go ouch. Just my 2 cents, take it or leave it. Me I am bqck to S1.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 11, 2012, 7:29 PM
Post #38 of 68 (1174 views)
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Re: [Willi91] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I agree that the best way to achieve good skills in canopy piloting is to get coaching at the dropzone from a coach who sees you fly, but I think it is a shame that curiousity is a sin here. The guy asks a question. Why not guide him in a proper way instead of telling him that he's going to die?

I guess I read the OP differently. While I did see a question in there, I also saw a description of a flawed learning progression, and several statements where the jumper proclaims what he 'thinks' is happening and then uses those thoughts to back up his flawed progression.

There's a difference between a guys asking a question, and a guy laying out everything he 'knows', and how he's already putting that into practice, and then asking a question about that.

Here's an example - what if I told you the brakes on my car were squeaking, and I was either going to remove both brake pads or just the squeaky one to solve the problem, and then I asked a mechanic his opinion on removing one or both. Can the mechanic give me any other answer than, 'Neither, they're both wrong, go find a professional mechanic to take care of your brakes'.

Both of my conclusions are wrong, and judging by my conclusions, it's clear that I should not be working on my brakes. The correct answer is to find a professional mechanic. This is the same thing.

Maybe it's my experience talking, maybe it's because I've heard these things before, but what I see when I read the OP is a guy who 'thinks' he has certain things figured out, and is acting upon those thoughts on his own. It's not a good situation, and not one that's going to be helped by trying to give him advice over the internet.

He's getting into a very risky area, that being experimenting with swooping at lower jump numbers. Even with professional coaching, it's a crap shoot as your total time under canopy is low (in the case of the OP, it's also been split up with a long layoff), but doing it on your own is even worse. Add in some flawed thinking, and already acting on those thoughts, and you can see why he get's the reposnses that he does.


5.samadhi

Apr 12, 2012, 7:20 AM
Post #39 of 68 (1128 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

hey dave, so riddle me this if you will, i'd sincerely appreciate your insight.

why is doing a 90 with one front with plenty of altitude for recovery, followed smoothly by double front risers and then let off for a smooth landing (allowing canopy to naturally recover before toggles are applied for plane-off) met with proclamations of death?

It seems very conservative to me...a safire2 139 with a 1.25 WL does not lose that much altitude in a 90 front riser turn and recovers extremely quick (so if you do initiate low which should not happen based on an ingrained site picture) then you can abort turn and take your out and do your slight crosswinder (which I have practiced many times purposely for that reason).

So why the animosity (not from you, or Aggie Dave, or beowulf, or matt but from the other random people)? Is it fear that I will progress too quickly into actually dangerous landing approaches?

The only danger I've been told so far is slamming into the ground because you dont let off your front risers! I could also accelerate into a brick wall with my truck if I dont let of the accelerator and apply brakes! I dont think I'm gonna do that though so it strikes me as insubstantial Tongue

Is there any real danger besides NOT LETTING UP YOUR FRONT RISER? (this is a learning moment by the way).Smile


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 12, 2012, 7:52 AM
Post #40 of 68 (1110 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

Because they really don't know if you are a DGIT or just intellectually curious. So the only responsible thing is to assume the worst and respond that way. Then it degenerates because the youngster isn't getting the feedback they think they need and it spirals down quick.

I'd really just prefer these threads to die immediately with one of the usual crowd saying - "we don't know you so we just can't decide. Here's reference to a suggested list of canopy skills needed to fully learn the current canopy (provide the link) - Have you done these? (most haven't). And then a referral to canopy training courses scheduled around the world. (if this is available)."

essentially -

1 - we don't know you
2 - have you done the skills list yet (probably not)
3 - go invest in live mentoring and coaching from somebody respected in the industry (not just your DZ hotshot)
4 - go away, you won't be validated regardless of whether you are doing it right or doing it wrong

the big clue is, if you are asking questions here, then you clearly aren't getting the guidance directly - because you'd be asking that person.

Some of the posters are asshats about it - well, we are seriously tired of seeing our friends break themselves just for their egos. Me, I'm sad and I miss them, but frankly I'm really just relieved when it happens if they manage to not hurt someone else with the same shit.


funny thing - this same mindset also typically think that teaching themselves to drive cars and motorcycles super fast on public roads (danger to themselves and others) is just fine and they won't take the effort to train on a controlled track either. Same mentality, same dramatic results, but even more vocal about it even though the risks to others is even more apparent.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Apr 12, 2012, 7:57 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 12, 2012, 8:14 AM
Post #41 of 68 (1114 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
hey dave, so riddle me this if you will, i'd sincerely appreciate your insight.

I gave you my insight, it's in the first post I made in this thread.

Quote:
So why the animosity (not from you, or Aggie Dave, or beowulf, or matt but from the other random people)?

I don't know where you get 'animosity' from. You might be confuising 'animosity' with 'honesty'. I didn't start this thread, I just responded to what you wrote with what I thought to be the best advice. Beyond the first post, my subsequent replies are less for your benefit, and more the benefot of others reading the thread.

If you insist on repeating (and defending) your mistakes, I see value in pointing that out to the reader so they can see the error of your ways, and possibly recognize if they themselves are exhibiting the same behavior.

Quote:
The only danger I've been told so far is slamming into the ground because you dont let off your front risers! I could also accelerate into a brick wall with my truck if I dont let of the accelerator and apply brakes! I dont think I'm gonna do that though so it strikes me as insubstantial

Emphasis added for clarity, but do you think anyone who has gone in thought they were going to and proceeded with their actions anyway?

Quote:
this is a learning moment by the way

For you? It appears not. For others? Let's hope so.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Apr 12, 2012, 8:15 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 12, 2012, 8:33 AM
Post #42 of 68 (1107 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Funny conincidence, after posting in this thread where I comment on your approach to canopy flight, and everything you 'think' you know, I saw an interesting quote in another thread of yours.

While looking for info on an Atair sport canopy, which is tough to come by as Atair USA has been out of the sport market for years, you followed all the leads you got and came up with nothing. No info, no support, not even a user review of the canopy you're considering, and despite all that, you're going through with the purchase and said this about the situation -
Quote:
it looks like it will come down to test jumping it and figuring it out on my own.

This is coming from a guy with not a lot of jumps or experience on different canopies who has recently been told (by several people) that he's on the wrong track with his 'thinking' about canopies and really needs some one-on-one coaching. This same guy is now buying a 'mystery' canopy and plans to figure it all out 'on his own'.

Dare I ask the square footage of this mystery canopy?


5.samadhi

Apr 12, 2012, 9:38 AM
Post #43 of 68 (1089 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

this has become some ridiculous shit! Sly

I'm gonna test jump a seven cell canopy that is no longer produced. Oh shit I'm gonna die dudes!!!!Laugh

I'm done here this is a waste of time. Incidentally its the same message most were trying to communicate with me from the get-go PirateCrazy


(This post was edited by 5.samadhi on Apr 12, 2012, 9:41 AM)


Premier Remster  (C License)

Apr 12, 2012, 11:02 AM
Post #44 of 68 (1069 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

I take July 5, 2013.


craigbey  (C 31991)

Apr 12, 2012, 5:20 PM
Post #45 of 68 (1012 views)
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Re: [Remster] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I take July 5, 2013.

You think he'll last that long?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH7KYmGnj40


AggieDave  (D License)

Apr 12, 2012, 5:36 PM
Post #46 of 68 (1004 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is it fear that I will progress too quickly into actually dangerous landing approaches?

You are already there.

The approaches you are doing are dangerous and if you don't realize that, then you're in a position of misunderstanding of what the consequences are.

Even though your canopy recovers quicker than some other canopies, that does not mean that you're not achieving a diving speed over 30 miles per hour.

So what is it like making a divot with your "not dangerous" approach?

See the other side of the hanger? Run at it as fast as you possibly can and let the wall stop you. That is about HALF the amount of force your body will experience hitting the ground with your "slow" canopy.

An ankle is 6-months and a life of continued pain.

A pelvis is a year and a life of pain (and no more skydiving).

A femur is at least 6-months and pain the rest of your life.

Your life. It probably won't hurt much after the first millisecond, but depending on your religious beliefs, it might suck or be sort of OK.


5.samadhi

Apr 12, 2012, 7:01 PM
Post #47 of 68 (988 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

well OK, there we have it...you're a coherent thoughtful poster here. Why the obsession on failure in the sport by you and others?

No other sport I have enjoyed is there such an obsession on failure (and the failure here btw is freezing up on holding on your front riser until you impact the earth).

I have base jumped, highlined, and free solo'd multipitch routes and never encountered such negative thinking centered around obsessing over failure.

Why do you think it is so? Do posters truly believe others do not understand that if the front riser is held too long impact will occur and it will hurt. Did you actually have to come up with the hangar example? Dave do you really think it is that mysterious that people need it explained to them???

Why didnt anybody tell me that if I slipped out of the crack with my hand jam then I would die when I was free soloing routes. Or if I fell off the antennae instead of exiting clean I would die? Pretty sure nobody said anything because it was obvious. Exactly like the issue of holding your fronts until impact.

But I don't think because something is obvious I would be cavalier while practicing the activity. I never let my guard down free soloing, I never quickly rigged a highline, and I certainly dont initiate a dive with a parachute from 300 feet without thinking and analyzing outs and plans for aborting the dive. I would think *thats* obvious too but who knows with this group we have Sly

Anyway, I really am done, its been ahem interesting.


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Apr 12, 2012, 8:29 PM
Post #48 of 68 (977 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you start BASE Jumping, high lining, or rock climbing on your own, or did you ask for "face to face" instruction ? You are so defensive and in such denial (of what you don't know you don't know). What are you, a 19 yr old ? Be a man and step up and demonstrate to a pro swooper your technique, then quietly let him or her explain what you are doing right and wrong. Stop being so damn defensive.....sorry dude, I'm on for sometime this Summer.......June 1 to August 17, 2012.....Sangi, would you write that date in for me please....thanks


AggieDave  (D License)

Apr 13, 2012, 2:05 AM
Post #49 of 68 (950 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
well OK, there we have it...you're a coherent thoughtful poster here. Why the obsession on failure in the sport by you and others?

Lets just say that history has taught some of us some really hard lessons. People we've tried to help progress, people we have worked hard to try to save.

Then we end up in the landing area cutting their rig off of them, only because they thought they were able to do more than they could. Bookmark this thread, come back in 5 years and see if your opinion has changed.Wink


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 13, 2012, 6:29 AM
Post #50 of 68 (921 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have base jumped, highlined, and free solo'd multipitch routes


ooooh, you are eXtrEmE
I bet you have a go-pro and drive super fast through residential neighborhoods

translation - bragging about stupid stuff doesn't help your case and this really is one crowd that this kind of stuff absolutely doesn't impress


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Apr 13, 2012, 6:35 AM)


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