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HP From an Old Fart

 

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obelixtim  (D 84)

Apr 4, 2012, 1:54 AM
Post #351 of 463 (1155 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Sadly "7"! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In my experience, demonizing a group rarely has the result of them listening to you.

No different than walking up to someone and yelling at them on the dz, even if you're right. More often than not you cause them to be defensive, and immediately shut down any chance of a civil conversation at that time.

"Demonising" wasn't my term initially, because I don't actually think anyone is "demonising" swooping and HP canopies, the reality is that genie is out of the bottle.

"Demonising" seems to me to be a defensive reaction by those who don't want to accept that others can be concerned about what is happening, and have something to say about that.

I agree with what you say, about people tending to close their ears if they are harassed. And thats been going on for 20 odd years already and still continues.

However, a concerted chorus from a multitude of directions tends to make people realise that there is an issue that really needs to be addressed.

Sometimes that has to be long and loud, and sometimes extreme, in order to generate even a small shift in attitudes.

Banning things isn't necessary. A change in the mindset is.

And a "civil conversation" is sometimes not necessary to be effective. Sometimes they are not even useful.

Dictatorships can be way more efficient than democracies, Especially if you want something done.


(This post was edited by obelixtim on Apr 4, 2012, 5:11 AM)


vanair  (D 8360)

Apr 4, 2012, 8:34 AM
Post #352 of 463 (1134 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Sadly "7"! [In reply to] Can't Post

Any DI will disagree.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Apr 4, 2012, 7:29 PM
Post #353 of 463 (1106 views)
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Re: [vanair] Sadly "7"! [In reply to] Can't Post

DI?


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 4, 2012, 7:57 PM
Post #354 of 463 (1099 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Sadly "7"! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
DI?

Drill Instructor
Attachments: DrillInstructor.jpg (68.7 KB)


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Apr 4, 2012, 8:06 PM
Post #355 of 463 (1096 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Sadly "7"! [In reply to] Can't Post

Copy that - thanks.

Of course, people listening to a DI have a very different situation than a jumper who chooses to be on a dz Wink


obelixtim  (D 84)

Apr 5, 2012, 2:58 AM
Post #356 of 463 (1081 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Sadly "7"! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Of course, people listening to a DI have a very different situation than a jumper who chooses to be on a dz

I don't know about that....I've found the DI approach VERY effective at times....some aspects of DZ policy are NOT open for negotiation....and thats how it should be. Clear borderlines are a must.


(This post was edited by obelixtim on Apr 5, 2012, 3:00 AM)


Marisan  (E 123)

Apr 5, 2012, 2:34 PM
Post #357 of 463 (1051 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Sadly "7"! [In reply to] Can't Post

I make no comment.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4298727;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread


obelixtim  (D 84)

Apr 5, 2012, 3:50 PM
Post #358 of 463 (1041 views)
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Re: [Marisan] Sadly "7"! [In reply to] Can't Post

Can't read that one Richard...


lvintw

Apr 5, 2012, 5:46 PM
Post #359 of 463 (1025 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Sadly "7"! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
However, a concerted chorus from a multitude of directions tends to make people realise that there is an issue that really needs to be addressed.

Sometimes that has to be long and loud, and sometimes extreme, in order to generate even a small shift in attitudes.

Banning things isn't necessary. A change in the mindset is.

That change has not happened and it won't.
MadCrazy

Unless all the careless people take themselves out, the only real answer is to reduce or eliminate access to the canopies that are causing this problem.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Apr 6, 2012, 12:58 AM
Post #360 of 463 (996 views)
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Re: [lvintw] Sadly "7"! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
That change has not happened and it won't.


Unless all the careless people take themselves out, the only real answer is to reduce or eliminate access to the canopies that are causing this problem.

Well I've seen mind sets change in skydiving before, so it is possible. Picking up dead and injured becomes tiresome, so I would expect DZO's to be the first. If they are filling in the pond at Elsinore that might be an indicator to the careless that they need to get their act together or lose access.

And the real answer willl prolly happen in countries where national bodies have more control and influence. It might take a while in the US....

An immediate effect could be made if jumpers themselves took ownership of the problem in the interim.


DaVinciflies

Apr 6, 2012, 9:33 AM
Post #361 of 463 (982 views)
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Re: [lvintw] Sadly "7"! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the only real answer is to reduce or eliminate access to the canopies that are causing this problem.

It is naive to think that will happen.

It's not the fault of the equipment - it is the pilot.


Marisan  (E 123)

Apr 23, 2012, 10:29 AM
Post #362 of 463 (906 views)
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Sadly "8"! [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4307829;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread


lvintw

Apr 23, 2012, 10:50 AM
Post #363 of 463 (899 views)
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Re: [Marisan] Sadly "8"! [In reply to] Can't Post

It is getting pretty ugly over there. CrazyShocked

When are you going to get on the ball and start demanding change? Will the USPA ever provide a real response that stops these stupid kids from breaking themselves?

This is happening much more frequently in the US. Why?


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 23, 2012, 11:04 AM
Post #364 of 463 (892 views)
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Re: [Marisan] Sadly "8"! [In reply to] Can't Post


Clicky


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Apr 23, 2012, 11:52 AM
Post #365 of 463 (864 views)
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Re: [lvintw] Sadly "8"! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It is getting pretty ugly over there. CrazyShocked

When are you going to get on the ball and start demanding change? Will the USPA ever provide a real response that stops these stupid kids from breaking themselves?

This is happening much more frequently in the US. Why?

What do you want the USPA to do? Tell skydivers with thousands of jumps that they are not allowed to jump an HP canopy? This isn't a 200 jump newbie. Its not students banging themselves up. Its folks with decades of experience. Nothing that has been suggested for the USPA to do short of banning HP canopies will stop this. If the DZ's get fed up with it they will ban swooping. Perris has done this. I'm sure more will follow.

If you don't want to swoop, awesome. If someone else weighs the risk/reward and has the experience to know better, and the DZ is allowing it, good for them.

I'm the first to admit this trend is troubling. But there is little the USPA can do. This ball started rolling along time ago and its going to be tough to stop.


Martini  (D 23756)

Apr 23, 2012, 9:49 PM
Post #366 of 463 (808 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Sadly "8"! [In reply to] Can't Post

There is an answer, it took me a long time to figure it out but a simple solution is at hand: Ban ram-air canopies. You can't swoop a round.

Before you all congratulate me on my simple yet elegant solution please find a way to prevent the low pull contests that will inevitably result from a ram-air ban, perhaps a requirement for an AAD set to 2000' AGL will do the trick.


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Apr 23, 2012, 10:06 PM
Post #367 of 463 (801 views)
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Re: [Martini] Sadly "8"! [In reply to] Can't Post

Really? I mean, I understand you can't swoop a round per se, but I was told by an old timer that they used to have injuries from people using similar mechanics to swooping with rounds - that they would "hook" T10s and Piglets in. Apparently there were some serious injuries (dont remember if he said any fatals) from this if it was mistimed.
Sorry I can't describe the technique they used - I am sure someone here can chime in...


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Apr 23, 2012, 10:09 PM
Post #368 of 463 (797 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] Sadly "8"! [In reply to] Can't Post

A hit-the-ground under a good canopy fatality pretty much always used to involve either an obstacle (water, power lines) or some seriously bad luck (the guy whose chest-mounted altimeter hit his throat and choked him being an example).

Decent number of broken ankles and even legs from landings, including downwind accuracy.

But swooping pretty much started the ability to hook yourself into the ground fatally.

Wendy P.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Apr 24, 2012, 12:30 PM
Post #369 of 463 (765 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Sadly "8"! [In reply to] Can't Post

Even a T-10 has a 3-5mph forward speed. If you crank a toggle, you'd start it spinning. Which, would increase its decent rate (remember, you were going to land hard anyway) to some extent.....

Nope, I don't think the ram air ban is going to do it. Cool


lvintw

Apr 24, 2012, 5:58 PM
Post #370 of 463 (731 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Sadly "8"! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Nothing that has been suggested for the USPA to do short of banning HP canopies will stop this.


So if you REALLY want to stop this, the answer is to reduce or eliminate access to HP canopies. The ongoing incidents prove that a ban on -- or severely restricted access to -- HP canopies is the only thing that would be effective.

People keep talking about training and mentoring, but that alone is not working. It's just more talk.

The time for talking has come and gone. It's time to DO something.


DaVinciflies

Apr 24, 2012, 7:07 PM
Post #371 of 463 (717 views)
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Re: [lvintw] Sadly "8"! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Nothing that has been suggested for the USPA to do short of banning HP canopies will stop this.


So if you REALLY want to stop this, the answer is to reduce or eliminate access to HP canopies. The ongoing incidents prove that a ban on -- or severely restricted access to -- HP canopies is the only thing that would be effective.

People keep talking about training and mentoring, but that alone is not working. It's just more talk.

The time for talking has come and gone. It's time to DO something.

To which the traditional response is "Why not ban skydiving then?".


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Apr 24, 2012, 8:25 PM
Post #372 of 463 (707 views)
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Re: [lvintw] Sadly "8"! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Nothing that has been suggested for the USPA to do short of banning HP canopies will stop this.


So if you REALLY want to stop this, the answer is to reduce or eliminate access to HP canopies. The ongoing incidents prove that a ban on -- or severely restricted access to -- HP canopies is the only thing that would be effective.

People keep talking about training and mentoring, but that alone is not working. It's just more talk.

The time for talking has come and gone. It's time to DO something.
.

Well then what do you propose? You are talking about banning hp canopies. That will never happen and it shouldn't. Everyone has a choice. Yours may differ from those who are qualified and choose to jump hp canopies. If you want 100% guarantee nobody will get hurt or die this isn't the right lifestyle for you.


Marisan  (E 123)

Apr 24, 2012, 10:23 PM
Post #373 of 463 (692 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Sadly "8"! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Nothing that has been suggested for the USPA to do short of banning HP canopies will stop this.


So if you REALLY want to stop this, the answer is to reduce or eliminate access to HP canopies. The ongoing incidents prove that a ban on -- or severely restricted access to -- HP canopies is the only thing that would be effective.

People keep talking about training and mentoring, but that alone is not working. It's just more talk.

The time for talking has come and gone. It's time to DO something.
.

Well then what do you propose? You are talking about banning hp canopies. That will never happen and it shouldn't. Everyone has a choice. Yours may differ from those who are qualified and choose to jump hp canopies. If you want 100% guarantee nobody will get hurt or die this isn't the right lifestyle for you.

So your answer is to just accept the collateral damage. It's just a cost of jumping HP Canopies???????????

You've had twenty years to stop this little problem and despite all the efforts of those that can be bothered sweet fcuk all has happened.

I've said it so many times in this thread: Stop the carnage or someone else will do it for you.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Apr 24, 2012, 11:21 PM
Post #374 of 463 (685 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Sadly "8"! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This isn't a 200 jump newbie. Its not students banging themselves up. Its folks with decades of experience. Nothing that has been suggested for the USPA to do short of banning HP canopies will stop this.

Between 2000 and 2005 low turns accounted for 34 fatalities….21 with fewer than 1000 jumps, 13 over 1000 jumps.

Between 2006 and 2011 low turns accounted for 22 fatalities…..8 with fewer than 1000 jumps, 14 over 1000 jumps.

That’s almost a dead heat with the over 1000 crowd coming on strong the last 3 years.

Sparky


obelixtim  (D 84)

Apr 25, 2012, 2:23 AM
Post #375 of 463 (672 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Sadly "8"! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
That’s almost a dead heat with the over 1000 crowd coming on strong the last 3 years.

Are those US fatalities alone?.

If not, I'm sure the world wide figures would paint a slightly different picture....

And the figure for "maimed" would I'm sure would show the inexperienced dominating.

Its a pity the statistics are so unreliable...


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