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MARD discussion...

 

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Poll: MARD discussion...
I have a Skyhook 67 / 38%
I have another MARD equipped rig 4 / 2%
I want a MARD on my rig 26 / 15%
I Feel Student rigs SHOULD have MARD's 42 / 24%
I Feel Student rigs should NOT have MARD's 13 / 7%
I want to try a MARD system* 23 / 13%
175 total votes
 
fcajump  (D 15598)

Apr 4, 2012, 6:57 AM
Post #1 of 56 (5580 views)
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MARD discussion... Can't Post

*like Vector's traveling demo skyhook triple canopy rig when first introduced.

OK guys, you've had enough to say in the wrong forum and threads... and I know its been talked about before, but there's new folks, new opinions and more time in service for the skyhood, and more MARD's in service/development...

So lets have it, what do you think??
(I'll duck now...) Wink

JW

PS - yes I know... always some option left off Polls... wish the options were editable... sorry.


(This post was edited by fcajump on Apr 4, 2012, 7:11 AM)


DaVinciflies

Apr 4, 2012, 7:04 AM
Post #2 of 56 (5518 views)
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Re: [fcajump] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

What about "I don't have a MARD and don't feel the need for one"?


(This post was edited by DaVinciflies on Apr 4, 2012, 7:04 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 4, 2012, 7:10 AM
Post #3 of 56 (5499 views)
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Re: [fcajump] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Here's my hang up with the MARD system- the second you change your EPs because you have one, you have taken it from a back up device to a primary device.

If you're willing to chop at 300ft because you have a Skyhook, you're counting on the Skyhook to work or you die.

If you're willing to do anything you wouldn't do without one, you have defeated the purpose. Oh the irony, that Bill Booths product could be the one to prove his theory that for every safety advancement you give jumper, they'll find a way to negate the additional level of safety.

What are MARDS good for? They do seem to limit the amount of 'stuff' that can happen between a cutaway and RSl activated reserve deployment. Quicker deployment means less time for spinning and inducing line twists.

It's also hard to argue with the idea of more altitude. If a MARD can get you under a reserve at 1200ft, while an RSl would have put under canopy at 1000ft, that extra altitude can be used to find and make a suitable landing area.

In the end, it's a narrow margin of improvement over an RSL. Anything a MARD can do, an RSL can do with an extra 200ft, and a human can do with an extra 400ft. While it's hard to argue with an improvement of any kind, I think the MARDs have fallen into a trap where people seem to think they're more than just back up devices, and have it in their mind that they really can cutaway from 300ft if they have to, and that's not really the case.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Apr 4, 2012, 7:44 AM
Post #4 of 56 (5461 views)
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Re: [davelepka] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Here's my hang up with the MARD system- the second you change your EPs because you have one, you have taken it from a back up device to a primary device.

I heard the same argument being used against having AAD's and RSL's. Not saying its invalid, but for me I think it will simply be incorporated into the new way of training/thinking.

I don't think anyone will advocate changing the hard deck to 300', but then I don't hear anyone advocating not pulling because you have an AAD...

But we've seen their use when folks are knocked out, loose track of time, or even simply given up...

I see this as a similar thing... it will be a savior of those who planned to cutaway and pull a reserve with plenty of altitude, but either lost track or had complications getting it done.

JW


JohnRich  (D License)

Apr 4, 2012, 7:58 AM
Post #5 of 56 (5447 views)
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Re: MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

There was another feeling I was getting from the previous thread that I wanted to address, but the discussion was shut down there, so I'll throw it in here.

At least one person seemed to be implying that MARD's/Skyhooks are so great that NOT having them on student gear was negligence. And from that, you could imply that the student operations are guilty of killing their students when those students perform low cutaways.

So let's be clear on this. Just because a drop zone doesn't have the latest and greatest parachute inventions does not mean that they are being negligent with the lives of their students. They train the students on how to respond with the gear that they have now, to save their lives in emergencies. The students need to follow those instructions, and not activate cut-aways below 1,000 feet.

It costs money to retrofit a bunch of student gear, and not all drop zones have the dough to go redesigning their gear every time something new comes out. You get to jump what's available now, not what you might like to have in a world where everyone has more money than they need. If you're not comfortable with that, don't jump.

Student gear, and even experienced gear, is often a bunch of compromises. What might solve one problem, often has a downside and can create other problems. How someone chooses to address those compromises and configure their gear is a personal choice. They shouldn't be called negligent just because their decision process is different from yours.

How about an automobile analogy? Do you go out and buy a new high-end car every year in order to have the latest and greatest safety gimmicks that the manufacturers dream up? What, you can't afford that? Well, why not retrofit your existing car? That's too expensive too? Does it mean that you are negligent because you own an older or cheaper car that doesn't have side airbags? Should you be sued if you loan your car to a friend and they run a stop sign and die in a side-impact collision because you chose not to buy a car with side airbags? Is everyone who doesn't drive a Cadillac Escalade an unsafe motorist who is just asking for trouble?


(This post was edited by JohnRich on Apr 4, 2012, 8:06 AM)


Andy9o8  (D License)

Apr 4, 2012, 8:15 AM
Post #6 of 56 (5432 views)
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Re: [davelepka] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Here's my hang up with the MARD system- the second you change your EPs because you have one, you have taken it from a back up device to a primary device.

Not necessarily, in all cases. Maybe it just slightly lowers the deck a jumper uses, down in the basement, between cutting away and just "getting more nylon out" - dumping a reserve into a main has its own perils, as we all know. So in that regard, it's really just about expanding available options a bit.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Apr 4, 2012, 8:19 AM)


fcajump  (D 15598)

Apr 4, 2012, 8:18 AM
Post #7 of 56 (5429 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There was another feeling I was getting from the previous thread that I wanted to address, but the discussion was shut down there, so I'll throw it in here.

At least one person seemed to be implying that MARD's/Skyhooks are so great that NOT having them on student gear was negligence. And from that, you could imply that the student operations are guilty of killing their students when those students perform low cutaways.

So let's be clear on this. Just because a drop zone doesn't have the latest and greatest parachute inventions does not mean that they are being negligent with the lives of their students. They train the students on how to respond with the gear that they have now, to save their lives in emergencies. The students need to follow those instructions, and not activate cut-aways below 1,000 feet.

It costs money to retrofit a bunch of student gear, and not all drop zones have the dough to go redesigning their gear every time something new comes out. You get to jump what's available now, not what you might like to have in a world where everyone has more money than they need. If you're not comfortable with that, don't jump.

Student gear, and even experienced gear, is often a bunch of compromises. What might solve one problem, often has a downside and can create other problems. How someone chooses to address those compromises and configure their gear is a personal choice. They shouldn't be called negligent just because their decision process is different from yours.

How about an automobile analogy? Do you go out and buy a new high-end car every year in order to have the latest and greatest safety gimmicks that the manufacturers dream up? What, you can't afford that? Well, why not retrofit your existing car? That's too expensive too? Does it mean that you are negligent because you own an older or cheaper car that doesn't have side airbags? Should you be sued if you loan your car to a friend and they run a stop sign and die in a side-impact collision because you chose not to buy a car with side airbags? Is everyone who doesn't drive a Cadillac Escalade an unsafe motorist who is just asking for trouble?

On the other hand, negligence law suits have been won when students were injured/killed because the DZ was using out-dated gear that was not up to the accepted industry standard...

At this point a DZ that took this same stand as to why they did not use AAD's on student gear (change of emergency procedures, possible double deployments, cost, maintanence, added education/complexity for the rigger), would be burned by the industry.

(and I have heard those arguments concerning AAD's in the past)

So, by pattern, I guess they may be required on student gear in another 10 years. Wink

JW


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 4, 2012, 9:13 AM
Post #8 of 56 (5402 views)
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Re: [fcajump] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

So, just a couple of questions....


What other MARDs are out there and available on sport gear besides the skyhook? I am aware some version of the RAX system was recently put on some gear in Europe, but I think that was military only.


What is the proportion of jumps in which the Skyhook does not work as designed (using the cutaway main as a pilot chute) and simply works as an RSL? I've seen anecdotal reports that put this number as high as 10%, I don't know if that is accurate but it seems awfully high to me.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Apr 4, 2012, 9:22 AM
Post #9 of 56 (5398 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What other MARDs are out there and available on sport gear besides the skyhook?

Available - not sure.
In development - Strong and Jerry B are working on designs. Not sure if they are on the market yet, but wanted to leave the option open as I just dunno...

JW


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 4, 2012, 10:02 AM
Post #10 of 56 (5374 views)
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Re: [fcajump] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What other MARDs are out there and available on sport gear besides the skyhook?

Available - not sure.
In development - Strong and Jerry B are working on designs. Not sure if they are on the market yet, but wanted to leave the option open as I just dunno...

JW

I believe the RAX is Jerry's design (actually an Infinity design) that is freely available to any rig manufacturer that wants it (no patent).

I understand that Eric Fradet has a system but he intends it for military installation only? maybe?

I do not know much at all about the Strong MARD in development.

As I tend not to be an early adopterd I would want to see all of these things on the market for a while before I would be willing to adopt any of them...let other people be the beta testers and find out where the flaws and limitations are...


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 4, 2012, 10:05 AM
Post #11 of 56 (5371 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

OK, a search has revealed RiggerRob's post on the Strong MARD from PIA 2011--apparently it is intended for tandems. I admit that I don't fully understand all of this, it is all so much simpler with a diagram.:


The reserve also includes a new type of MARD (Main Assisted Reserve Deployment). The "Air Anchor" RSL has a ring on the bottom that slides along the reserve bridle. A 1-ring release system - temporarily - attaches the RSL to the bridle and is held closed by a piece of black flex cable. If the RSL wins the race, it pulls against a (covered) bag-stop-ring and lifts the free-bag.
If the pilot-chute wins the race, the ring (on the bottom of the RSL) slides away from the steel cable and the RSL dis-connects, similar to Socerer and Skyhook.
SEI showed video Air Anchor drop tests.
The reserve bridle configuration is not "frozen" so I suggested sewing on a stiffened (similar to a steering toggle) extra piece of webbing - or at a bare minimum sewing some contrasting thread to remind field riggers where to do the needle fold for the staging loop.
SEI also said that all of their older canopies are compatible with the new system, to ease conversion costs for DZs that already operate Dual Hawks. They have tested SET 400 and SET 366 - as reserves - in various military rigs and will offer them as reserves in the new system.



fcajump  (D 15598)

Apr 4, 2012, 10:10 AM
Post #12 of 56 (5363 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
What other MARDs are out there and available on sport gear besides the skyhook?

Available - not sure.
In development - Strong and Jerry B are working on designs. Not sure if they are on the market yet, but wanted to leave the option open as I just dunno...

JW

I believe the RAX is Jerry's design (actually an Infinity design) that is freely available to any rig manufacturer that wants it (no patent).

I understand that Eric Fradet has a system but he intends it for military installation only? maybe?

I do not know much at all about the Strong MARD in development.

As I tend not to be an early adopterd I would want to see all of these things on the market for a while before I would be willing to adopt any of them...let other people be the beta testers and find out where the flaws and limitations are...

Strong was showing it at the 2011 PIA on their new Tandem rig.
From their web site: http://strongparachutes.com/pages/Tandem/force.html
Quote:
We use a simple, yet highly effective main assisted reserve deployment (MARD) system called the Air Anchor. The Air Anchor is part of the RSL so there is no special or extra equipment needed! During a cutaway the Air Anchor activates when the main canopy has more drag than the departing reserve pilot chute reducing time and altitude lost by as much as 50%. With no complicated rigging required the Air Anchor is simply the best safety system available!


Thanks for the update on the others.
JW


councilman24  (D 8631)

Apr 4, 2012, 1:12 PM
Post #13 of 56 (5308 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

Remember, having a MARD does NOT change the allowable opening time/distance under TSO testing. So you can have a MARD that doesn't make anything better.

Current TSO Limits Canopies with max weight up to 250. For Breakaway. 5 secs or 300 ft. Measured from pack opening. For over 250 it goes up 0.01s and 1ft per pound.

WITH an RSL must be open within these limits from time of BREAKAWAY.

Proposed TSO standard not yet official. RSL breakaway test change to pack opening.

If MARD equiped 16 additional tests (4 each) with stable, spinning forward, backward, and baglock after freefall tests.

MAX Altitude/Time to open do NOT change.

So, should the cutaway decision altitude change? NIMO A RSL or MARD will help with the cutaway not reserve pull/delayed reserve pull incidents which aren't uncommon, even with experienced jumpers. A MARD will help with the potential fatality that waited too long to cutaway. Would/could I change my cutaway versus more nylon decision based on a MARD? No. First altitude is likely changing fast enough that no MARD/MARD decision points are likely passed quickly. In addition cutaway or not decision point should be higher than the MAX time done under TSO testing. TSO testing was probably best case. So you need to cutaway higher than 300' to ensure rig functions within testing limits. RSL might get pack open sooner. MARD may get you more flight time but relying on it to get it open sooner and changing decision altitudes is at best a paper exercise. What it MAY do is save the folks that have already passed all the decision altitudes and still cutaway. Or forced to by low incident/change in main.

So far for me advantages of MARD don't outway complexity.

Of course I haven't bought new gear other than AAD for 15 years.Wink


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Apr 4, 2012, 1:20 PM
Post #14 of 56 (5304 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Southern,

Quote:
the RAX is Jerry's design (actually an Infinity design)

I'm glad that you added that last part.

It is actually Kelly Farrington's design ( yea, I know he owns Velocity Sports ).

The concept & the original work on the RAX was entirely done by Kelly; and it is very important that he ( and only he ) get the necessary recognition for his work.

Quote:
Jerry B are working on designs
IMO all of my work is completed. It is now up the any mfr to do their work to include, should they choose to do so.

Quote:
freely available to any rig manufacturer that wants it (no patent).

When Kelly & I first started working on the RAX, this was the one criteria that we both insisted upon.

JerryBaumchen

PS) And I will freely send out RAX mockups to anyone who wants to see one. I only ask that it be returned; some have not. Mad


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Apr 5, 2012, 3:59 AM
Post #15 of 56 (5197 views)
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Re: [fcajump] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

MARDS that I know of:

Skyhook (UPT)
RAX (Kelly Farington)
Interlock (Eric Fradet)
DRX (Mirage)
LES (Basik)
DRD (SWS Rigs)


(This post was edited by skydiverek on Apr 5, 2012, 4:42 AM)


Skyper

Apr 5, 2012, 4:24 AM
Post #16 of 56 (5182 views)
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Re: [fcajump] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hereby my answer:

I DON'T HAVE MARD AND I DON'T WANT IT.

I think student's rigs should be kept clean from MARD/alike things.


(This post was edited by Skyper on Apr 5, 2012, 4:30 AM)


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 5, 2012, 4:33 AM
Post #17 of 56 (5175 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
MARDS that I know of:

Interlock (Eric Fradet)
DRX (Mirage)
LES (Basik)
DRD (SWS Rigs)

Are these available on sport rigs?


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Apr 5, 2012, 4:41 AM
Post #18 of 56 (5167 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
MARDS that I know of:

Interlock (Eric Fradet)
DRX (Mirage)
LES (Basik)
DRD (SWS Rigs)

Are these available on sport rigs?

Interlock (Eric Fradet): military
DRX (Mirage): sport (secret option for selected customers ;-) )
LES (Basik): sport (used to be?, not any more)
DRD (SWS Rigs): military


(This post was edited by skydiverek on Apr 5, 2012, 4:43 AM)


fcajump  (D 15598)

Apr 5, 2012, 5:07 AM
Post #19 of 56 (5150 views)
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Re: [Skyper] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hereby my answer:

I DON'T HAVE MARD AND I DON'T WANT IT.

I think student's rigs should be kept clean from MARD/alike things.

Could you please add information to your profile so that we can more accuratly place your opinion within the context of your experience and time-in-sport?
Thanks,
JW Smile


Skyper

Apr 5, 2012, 5:27 AM
Post #20 of 56 (5143 views)
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Re: [fcajump] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

why didn't you provide an option "I don't use MARD" as an possible answer to this question?

Edit: and you can place your opinion about my opinion whereever you want.


(This post was edited by Skyper on Apr 5, 2012, 5:29 AM)


fcajump  (D 15598)

Apr 5, 2012, 5:37 AM
Post #21 of 56 (5134 views)
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Re: [Skyper] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
why didn't you provide an option "I don't use MARD" as an possible answer to this question?

Edit: and you can place your opinion about my opinion whereever you want.

Oversite (honest... as mentioned in my edited original post... when I realised it, it would not let me edit the poll options.)

Just curious if your opinion was one of a young student or of a seasoned verteran of the belly-wart vintage, or otherwise. Just wanting to understand the backgrounds of the people and their opinion. As to your, I respect it and wish you well.

JW


billbooth  (D 3546)

Apr 5, 2012, 5:50 AM
Post #22 of 56 (5128 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

For a point of reference: Skyhooks have been on the market for 10 years now, and are installed on over 15,000 civilian and military rigs worldwide.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 5, 2012, 11:01 AM
Post #23 of 56 (5084 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Interlock (Eric Fradet): military
DRX (Mirage): sport (secret option for selected customers ;-) )
LES (Basik): sport (used to be?, not any more)
DRD (SWS Rigs): military

I wonder how many DRX are out there in the field?

Any idea why the LES wsa introduced and then withdrawn? Of maybe it wasn't introduced?


Deyan  (D 322)

Apr 5, 2012, 11:32 AM
Post #24 of 56 (5072 views)
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Re: [councilman24] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Current TSO Limits Canopies with max weight up to 250. For Breakaway. 5 secs or 300 ft. Measured from pack opening. For over 250 it goes up 0.01s and 1ft per pound.

4.3.6 Functional Test (Normal Pack All Types):
For all 4.3.6 tests the maximum allowable opening time for
parachute canopies with a maximum operating weight of 250 lb (113.4 kg) or less, is 3 s from the
moment of pack opening.


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Apr 5, 2012, 11:33 AM
Post #25 of 56 (5072 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] MARD discussion... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Bartek,

Quote:
MARDS that I know of: DRD (SWS Rigs)

This is a RAX System. I have no idea of how it became something called 'DRD.' Might be some Ukraine translation.

It is a RAX System.

JerryBaumchen


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