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Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request)

 

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diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 8:32 AM
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Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) Can't Post

I've hashed the argument out more than once, and in attendance with the full USPA BOD, by request, feel free to discuss, perhaps it will lead to change.

In reply to:
It is absolutely insane that the USPA and the gear manufacturers are giving people with only 600 skydives a tandem rating! That is just not enough jumping experience to be doing tandems, period.
In reply to:
While I agree with you, the jump numbers is not the only problem. It's somewhat about time is sport which is what really seasons a person. The USPA BOD has been asked to create some hurdles to slow the progress of skydivers to season them a bit. They have chosen to not to put these hurdles in play.

1) require 1 year between the coach rating and ANY instructional rating irrespective of jump numbers. This would stop the money seekers who get a coach rating one weekend and a tandem rating the next.

2) Define the beginning of "time in sport" as the issuance of an "A" license. This would stop those that did a tandem, then waited a few years before starting a training program, racking up 499 jumps in a very short period (saw someone do that many in less than a year this last year) and be eligible for a tandem rating.

Some of the BOD seems to thing these rules would hurt the industry. They falsely believe there is an instructor shortage, when in fact there is simply a shortage of experience in the field right now. The shortage of experience is caused buy a glut of low time, willing to work for low pay instructors causing those with experience to get out of the industry.
Diablo - Please repost this in Safety and Training. I think it would be a very good discussion there.
(not inappropriate as a one off statement here, but the full discussion should happen and that's a better place for it...)
JW


Scrumpot  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 8:41 AM
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Re: [diablopilot] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Which side of this is your opinion, JP?

That "it is insane to give people with only 600 total skydives a tandem rating"? - Or that this is not the main factor, and that instead - overall "seasoning" of said jumper (and how you get that seasoning) rather, is?

It is difficult to discern your position on this, based upon this being chopped out of its previous total (in incidents) discussion thread.


rifleman  (Student)

Apr 3, 2012, 9:44 AM
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Re: [diablopilot] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

In the UK you need at least 800 jumps and 8 hours cumulative freefall time before you can attend the basic instructors course which allows you to do ground instruction only under supervision. After six months you then attend another course which then allows to jump with tandem students.

http://www.bpa.org.uk/...oming-an-instructor/


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Apr 3, 2012, 9:57 AM
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Re: [] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Lets not lose sight of the fact that there are dropzones all over the country that are single cessna dropzones, open seasonally, that employ instructors (AFF and Tandem), that don't have 1000 jumps. When all you do is cessna jumps it can take a long time to reach 1000 jumps.

The requirements have been working fine. No need to change them. Not everyone is fortunate enough to jump at multiple turbine DZ's.

I'm becoming more and more concerned about the entitled "experienced" instructors who don't need to change or learn proper patterns, or listen to anyone because they "know". Look at the numbers...its not the 600 jump tandem instructor dieing or taking people out.


cloudtramp  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 10:29 AM
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
When all you do is cessna jumps it can take a long time to reach 1000 jumps.

I did 700 jumps at a seasonal cessna dropzone in one summer last year. Just sayin...


angle228  (B License)

Apr 3, 2012, 10:41 AM
Post #6 of 58 (2922 views)
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Re: [cloudtramp] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Was that DZ open 7 days a week? Becauase at my seasonal DZ, even in the summers we are only open Sat, Sun, and some Wed after 5pm.... no way you could get 700 jumps at those hours

On the best day where we have 2 planes going as fast as we can get them going you could normally get 5-6 jumps. So if your life allowed you to be out there every Sat/Sun you would get 10-12 jumps a weekend X 6months open=240-288 jumos.... thats with no wind/weather holds the whole summer (in nebraska yeah right)...


Ron

Apr 3, 2012, 11:04 AM
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Re: [diablopilot] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is what I would have:

1. One year between coach and TI or AFFI
2. 500 jumps.
3. 3 years in the sport from license.
4. Cutaway
5. Ditch the 3rd class medical. 7 years of 'sport pilot' has shown that not ONE accident could be attributed to a medical issue. In fact, the EAA and AOPA have petitioned the FAA to allow planes <180 HP to fall under the same self certification requirements.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 3, 2012, 11:19 AM
Post #8 of 58 (2890 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

TK posted:

>If I want to fly a plane, I can pile in single engine, multi engine,
>commercial, instrument ratings in a short period of time if I have the
>money, the time and the drive. Does not mean that I do not deserve to
>have those ratings nor does it mean that I did ANY LESS than anyone else
>to achieve those ratings.

You are correct. However, it also might mean that you are now a "summer pilot" with lots of qualifications who has never flown in bad weather or in icing conditions.

Does that mean that people should think less of you? No. Does that mean you are less experienced than a commercial instrument pilot who has the same rating, but has a lot of time flying in bad weather and icing conditions? Yes.

We see that in skydiving nowadays. Is someone who has mostly tunnel time going to be able to deal with a two out as well as someone who has mostly skydives? Probably not. He is not as experienced a skydiver, even if he has the same freefall time.

Someone who makes 1000 jumps over the winter in Arizona? He's likely to be a good skydiver - but may also make very poor decisions when it comes to dealing with weather, or spotting.

In skydiving, as in many other activities, breadth of experience is very important. And often you just can't get that breadth of experience in six months at one DZ.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Apr 3, 2012, 12:56 PM
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Re: [billvon] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Someone who makes 1000 jumps over the winter in Arizona? He's likely to be a good skydiver - but may also make very poor decisions when it comes to dealing with weather, or spotting.

Do you really think that too many people get spotting experience if the jump plane in use is a Caravan or Otter or bigger?


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 3:14 PM
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Re: [Scrumpot] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm on the seasoning side of things though with as fast as people add up jumps these days the jump numbers might be revisited?


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 3:14 PM
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Re: [Scrumpot] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm on the seasoning side of things though with as fast as people add up jumps these days the jump numbers might be revisited?


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 3:16 PM
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The requirements have been working fine. No need to change them. Not everyone is fortunate enough to jump at multiple turbine DZ's.

They are not working. We have the lowest possible tallent, competency, and experience level in skydiving since I started, and it's due to sub standard instruction across the board.


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 3:18 PM
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Re: [Ron] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Here is what I would have:

1. One year between coach and TI or AFFI
2. 500 jumps.
3. 3 years in the sport from license.
4. Cutaway
5. Ditch the 3rd class medical. 7 years of 'sport pilot' has shown that not ONE accident could be attributed to a medical issue. In fact, the EAA and AOPA have petitioned the FAA to allow planes <180 HP to fall under the same self certification requirements.

I agree except for point 5. The problem is drug use and a penalty for it.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 3, 2012, 3:21 PM
Post #14 of 58 (2791 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

>Do you really think that too many people get spotting experience if the
>jump plane in use is a Caravan or Otter or bigger?

Not sure what you are asking. Are you asking whether people get experience spotting if a DZ uses Caravans and Otters? I think at some DZ's yes, at some DZ's no. Which is why someone who goes to many different DZ's will be more likely to have spotting experience than someone who goes to just one.

Nowadays I actually do a fair amount of spotting out of the Perris Otter, since I am often doing video for the more experienced teams, and they tend to get out at 10,500 - which means that I'm the first one out the door. 95% of the time it just means checking the spot and looking for traffic. The remaining 5% of the time it means a 10 second delay for a way too short spot or a talk with manifest after I land to adjust the spot a little.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Apr 3, 2012, 3:24 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Then maybe we look at those who are conducting the course evaluations?

Many "home grown" TI's / AFFI's at small seasonal DZ's would have problems when you start doubling the required jump numbers for instructors.

While my experience with the smaller cessna seasonal dropzones was limited to my experience growing up as a kid, I'll tell you the passion and instruction quality would rival anything I've seen today. Under some of the language suggesting 1000 jumps....my father who was the rigger/TI/Static Line instructor would not have qualified with the 800 jumps he had/has. That was at a time when D-License holders could obtain the license at 200 jumps. I get it, things change...but I contend the jump numbers aren't the problem.


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Apr 3, 2012, 3:57 PM
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Many "home grown" TI's / AFFI's at small seasonal DZ's would have problems when you start doubling the required jump numbers for instructors.

Are these "problems" in the best interest of the student. As instructors, we should ALWAYS have the students best interest (safety) as the #1 priority no matter what the cost.


Ron

Apr 3, 2012, 4:52 PM
Post #17 of 58 (2733 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I agree except for point 5. The problem is drug use and a penalty for it.

Hangglider tandem instructors don't need a class III
Ballon pilots don't need a medical.
Sport pilot instructors don't need a medical.

So basically it is an added expense that limits a good number of otherwise quality instructors for no real reason and that has no equal in any other aviation equivalent


justme12001  (D 29862)

Apr 3, 2012, 4:55 PM
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Re: [cloudtramp] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

I have been following this in the incident thread and now this one. I have been wondering how many jumps did you have when you got your tandem rating? Me,I started my TI coarse at jump number 520.


cloudtramp  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 5:42 PM
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Re: [justme12001] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
how many jumps did you have when you got your tandem rating?

I personally took a longer road than most. I began shooting tandem videos at about 200 jumps at a small cessna DZ. When I had about 650 jumps I broke my back during a landing accident, I had over 400 "work" jumps over 600 total jumps and was a total bad-ass (at least in my head). I personally believe that the most dangerous time in a jumpers career are between 600-1200 jumps. That's when skill level has not caught up with ego.
After healing from my injury I moved on to a busy year-round DZ where I did another 7000 video jumps almost all filming Tandems. I personally witnessed two tandem fatalities, at least six other fatalities, countless broken students and bad tandem landings, side-spins, bad drogue throws, bad students, poor instructor techniques, and too many major (experiences jumper) injuries to count. I became extremely proficient at spotting and flying a parachute in every condition imaginable. I had a few close calls myself during that time and three cutaways before I personally felt ready to take someone's life in my hands.
SO the short answer is about 7600 skydives and 200 BASE jumps before I took my tandem rating course and tandems were still scary as shit in the beginning. Probably because I knew more than most what could go wrong.
I don't think it is necessary for someone to do that many jumps before getting a tandem rating but I do believe that shooting video for at least 500 jumps before taking on the responsibility of someones life is a very important prerequisite. There is ALOT of shit that can go wrong up there and somebody with 500-600 jumps who counts 3 years from the first tandem jump they did just cannot truly know and understand what they are getting into.

Just my humble opinion...


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 3, 2012, 6:51 PM
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Re: [Ron] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

>Sport pilot instructors don't need a medical.

All commercial pilots (i.e. pilots flying passengers for hire) require medicals.

Most tandem operations carry passengers for hire. So the same requirements would seem to apply.


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 7:00 PM
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Then maybe we look at those who are conducting the course evaluations?

Yep. That needs to be tightened up too. Worst thing we did was to take it out of the USPA HQ and make it a business.


cloudtramp  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 7:00 PM
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Re: [Ron] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Ballon pilots don't need a medical.

Commercial balloon pilots who fly passengers do indeed need a medical. Ballooning is overseen by the FAA as well.


Ron

Apr 3, 2012, 7:50 PM
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Re: [billvon] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
>Sport pilot instructors don't need a medical.

All commercial pilots (i.e. pilots flying passengers for hire) require medicals.

False

Quote:
(c) Operations requiring either a medical certificate or U.S. driver's license. (1) A person must hold and possess either a valid medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter or a current and valid U.S. driver's license when exercising the privileges of—
(i) A student pilot certificate while seeking sport pilot privileges in a light-sport aircraft other than a glider or balloon;
(ii) A sport pilot certificate in a light-sport aircraft other than a glider or balloon; or
(iii) A flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating while acting as pilot in command or serving as a required flight crewmember of a light-sport aircraft other than a glider or balloon.
(2) A person using a current and valid U.S. driver’s license to meet the requirements of this paragraph must--
(i) Comply with each restriction and limitation imposed by that person’s U.S. driver’s license and any judicial or administrative order applying to the operation of a motor vehicle;
(ii) Have been found eligible for the issuance of at least a third- class airman medical certificate at the time of his or her most recent application (if the person has applied for a medical certificate);
(iii) Not have had his or her most recently issued medical certificate (if the person has held a medical certificate) suspended or revoked or most recent Authorization for a Special Issuance of a Medical Certificate withdrawn; and
(iv) Not know or have reason to know of any medical condition that would make that person unable to operate a light-sport aircraft in a safe manner.

http://www.faa.gov/...ication_brochure.pdf

Quote:
Under Section 111 of SFAR No. 89, the FAA proposed to require individuals exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating and acting as pilot in command of a light-sport aircraft other than a glider or balloon, to hold and possess a current and valid U.S. driver’s license or a current and valid airman medical certificate issued under part 67. These provisions, as revised in the final rule, are located under §§61.3 and 61.23 in the operating rules where medical certificate requirements for all flight instructors are found.

And from the EAA:
Quote:
I’m a current CFI but would like to instruct as a sport pilot instructor (under subpart K) so that I can use my drivers license in lieu of a third class medical. What do I need to do?

Assuming your most recent medical application was not denied, withdrawn, or revoked, you can “drop down” and operate as a sport pilot instructor. You will need to operate within the privileges and limitation of a CFI-SP. See §61.429 which specifically addresses this situation.


(This post was edited by Ron on Apr 3, 2012, 7:54 PM)


Ron

Apr 3, 2012, 8:07 PM
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Re: [cloudtramp] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
Commercial balloon pilots who fly passengers do indeed need a medical. Ballooning is overseen by the FAA as well.

False


Quote:
http://www.fun-flying.com/become_a_pilot.htm

Commercial Pilot Requirements:

To become a commercial pilot, you must fulfill the following minimum requirements as a private pilot:
Be at least 18 years of age
Read, speak, write and understand the English language
Hold at least a Private Pilot Certificate
No medical certificate is required but you must have no condition that would prevent you from operating the aircraft safely.
Have at least 35 hours as a pilot, including 20 hours in balloons, which must include the following:
10 flights in balloons
10 hours of flight training that includes at least 10 flights with an instructor on the Commercial Pilot areas of operation
Two flights as pilot in command
One controlled ascent to 3000 feet above the takeoff point
2 flights of 1 hour each within 60 days prior to taking the practical test
2 solo flights
Pass the written FAA Knowledge Test (or hold a Commercial Pilot Certificate for any powered aircraft).
Pass the Practical Knowledge Test (oral and flight) given by a designated FAA Flight Examiner or FAA Inspector.


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 8:14 PM
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Re: [Ron] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a moot point as the two situations are not congruent.

A Sport Pilot CFI, or Commercial Balloon pilot had to train over weeks and weeks, invest many tens to hundreds of hours of study, pass a written knowledge test, an oral knowledge test, and a practical skills test all administered by a(n) individual(s) who had no fiduciary interest in whether the applicant passed or failed.

A Tandem Instructor Candidate has to show up for a weekend, take an open book written test, brief someone (barely) on a Cat D skydive, and do a handful of jumps with someone who has to make a living by passing people.


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