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AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos

 

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JohnRich  (D License)

Apr 2, 2012, 6:51 PM
Post #26 of 152 (1394 views)
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Re: [Austintxflight] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I know the talk of fake AAD's is more reactionary, but I think about consequences of such, for example someone borrowing a rig and thinking it has an AAD when its just a dummy to skirt a DZ's rules.

I agree we should be responsible for our own safety, but please think twice before going through the time and effort to create fakes as the unintended consequences of such an action could lead to something more serious.

If I fake it, it's for me only. I don't loan my gear to anyone else. And if perchance I do, I'll tell the borrower there's no AAD. They can then make their own free choice to jump the rig or not. It should not be up to anyone else to dictate to experienced jumpers what configuration their gear must be in to jump.

Such regulations suck the freedom right out of this sport.

If the airbag in your car became inoperative, would you be afraid to drive it?


(This post was edited by JohnRich on Apr 2, 2012, 6:55 PM)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Apr 2, 2012, 6:58 PM
Post #27 of 152 (1377 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
r. Drop zones should not dictate to experienced jumpers what equipment they should use.
.
Of course they should, it's their backyard they are and shouild be allowed to make any ruling they want.
you can then CHOOSE to patronise them or not.
for someone to constantly sprouts the "Home of the free" bullshit, you seem pretty quick to back peddle if it does not seem in your favour.


bluskidave  (D 23569)

Apr 2, 2012, 7:48 PM
Post #28 of 152 (1342 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

I have 3 rigs, just recenly 2 have no AADs one my mirage with an Argus, banned, the 2nd a Cypress 12 years old good bye the third a racer never had an AAD. My pockets may have a little cushion! but I will be doing tandems to pay for these new AADs that I am forced to jump wiith at my home DZ. I have made it a policy not to take away from my family over skydiving financially.We have 1 instructor that has 6 rigs. bottom line there is no profit in teaching AFF


bluskidave  (D 23569)

Apr 2, 2012, 7:56 PM
Post #29 of 152 (1339 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

to Aggie Dave Sarah put in order for staff only 4 were available!


sundevil777  (D License)

Apr 2, 2012, 8:00 PM
Post #30 of 152 (1329 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

A DZ is more likely to verify that you have an AAD by checking your rig's data card than a visual check. At least that is enough to not make a fake unit such an attractive option. Being your own rigger would certainly be a benefit though.


texascrw  (D 18006)

Apr 2, 2012, 8:08 PM
Post #31 of 152 (1318 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

So much for going to San Marcos this summer to do some CRW. Wendy, can I spend my CRW dollars at your dropzone?


adamqbishop  (D 31570)

Apr 2, 2012, 8:08 PM
Post #32 of 152 (1318 views)
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Re: [bluskidave] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

" bottom line there is no profit in teaching AFF"
That is why I quit after one year. It just wasnt worth it. My AFF rating with expire in June and I have no intention of renewing it.


JohnRich  (D License)

Apr 2, 2012, 8:13 PM
Post #33 of 152 (1313 views)
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Re: [Squeak] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Of course they should, it's their backyard they are and shouild be allowed to make any ruling they want. you can then CHOOSE to patronise them or not. for someone to constantly sprouts the "Home of the free" bullshit, you seem pretty quick to back peddle if it does not seem in your favour.

Yep, they have the right to implement whatever rules they want. And that means that this rule will drive off the CRW dogs and some of the experienced jumpers. So be it. That still leaves them a thriving tandem business, but that's short-sighted, because without the fun jumpers, there are no new tandem masters being bred there. And when they run out of tandem masters, then what? Get 'em from other drop zones that still raise them? What happens when enough drop zones get out of the fun-jumper business that there aren't enough tandem masters to go around any more?

No need for you to be a jerk here. Freedom means freedom of choice for the customers, and businesses that want to suceed should provide that freedom of choice to them. But yes, the choice from a business standpoint as to which way to go is ultimately theirs, and also to live with whatever consequences follow from their decisions. The loss of revenue should be insignificant. But what about the loss of spirit and soul?

I have a lot of respect and love for Paul, Jen, Eric and all the rest of the crowd there. I'm gonna miss 'em. 'Tis a shame after all these years, that I'm suddenly deemed not safe enough to jump with them any more. I know they're shaken by the recent fatality there, but it's my opinion that this is the wrong response.


bluskidave  (D 23569)

Apr 2, 2012, 8:13 PM
Post #34 of 152 (1312 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

It surprised me on the # old time jumpers that didnt have AADs at SSM. And staff most who probably had their AAds expire!. Take where the knee jerk jump came from a speed star! all different levels of experince! I would have no hesitation to jumpimg with a John Rich a Carol Lee a Weldon people who were jumping before AADs were on the market. I picked up a tandem rig after after it had been jumped> AAD not turned on ? the tandem instructour his response? I was doing tandems before there was Drouges, AADs


JohnRich  (D License)

Apr 2, 2012, 8:20 PM
Post #35 of 152 (1305 views)
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Re: [bluskidave] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have 3 rigs, just recenly 2 have no AADs one my mirage with an Argus, banned, the 2nd a Cypress 12 years old good bye the third a racer never had an AAD.

So you need three Cypress' at $1,500 each, for a total of $4,500.

If you make $30 per tandem, you'll have to do 150 tandems just to get your personal rigs equipped to fun jump again. And during that time, you're not making any profit to help your family.

So if business is good, you might be back to fun-jumping and making profit again in, oh, about 3 months, if the weather cooperates. But the weather never cooperates. You'll be mid-summer before you get all this taken care of.

Just go for one rig to get yourself back in the air as a fun-jumper as soon as possible, and then go for a longer term plan to outfit the other rigs.


skydivekc  (D 18629)

Apr 2, 2012, 9:17 PM
Post #36 of 152 (1276 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

At our DZ we make you cycle it on as well as verify that the unit is in date upon waivering... I know most of you non DZO's hate this and or will not jump at my DZ or others that force this requirement, however I'm confident there will be a day when most if not all DZ's will require it.... We mandated it over 6 years ago and have 3 legitimate saves so it does make since... DZ's have a right to protect there clientele and reputation too..


Austintxflight

Apr 2, 2012, 9:54 PM
Post #37 of 152 (1257 views)
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Re: [skydivekc] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that DZ's are working just as hard to preserve their reputation as a safe environment. They need Tandems to come in and feel safe and not hear the stories about someone pounding in the day before.

No one wants to go through the bad string of luck Perris went through recently. {and they banned hook turns for a while)


Krip  (Student)

Apr 2, 2012, 10:07 PM
Post #38 of 152 (1252 views)
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Re: [skydivekc] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At our DZ we make you cycle it on as well as verify that the unit is in date upon waivering... I know most of you non DZO's hate this and or will not jump at my DZ or others that force this requirement, however I'm confident there will be a day when most if not all DZ's will require it.... We mandated it over 6 years ago and have 3 legitimate saves so it does make since... DZ's have a right to protect there clientele and reputation too..

Nice flight line dude, 14.5k in 9 minutes Cool

It's your DZ and your the rulemaker.

Do you have any rules on Max wing loading, vs experience level. Or max rotation . The Incident reports show a long trend of problems with hook turns, instead of bouncing. But you DZ info shows your DZ allows them.

Not looking for a long drawn out discussion. Do you have a secrete that you can share with the young one s and otheer DZO's yry and prevent stupid.

R.

KAMO skydivers 1970-72 Edgerton KSWink


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 2, 2012, 10:17 PM
Post #39 of 152 (1241 views)
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Re: [Krip] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you have any rules on Max wing loading, vs experience level. Or max rotation . The Incident reports show a long trend of problems with hook turns, instead of bouncing. But you DZ info shows your DZ allows them.

In reply to:

LaughLaughLaugh

Stick it in, twist it and break it off...Cool


I love you man!



airtwardo~I/JM Greene Co. sport parachute center, Baldwin, Ks. '82


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Apr 2, 2012, 10:23 PM)


GoHuskers  (C 41540)

Apr 2, 2012, 10:30 PM
Post #40 of 152 (1234 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No, making blanke assumptions is the stupidest thing a jumper can do.

*What blanket assumption did hokierower make?*

Not reading the manual and understanding the operation of a potentially lifesaving/deadly device on your back is the stupidest thing a jumper can do.

*Maybe he has. How could you possibly know that he hasn't?*

Asking people to spoon feed you information you should be able to figure out for yourself is the stupidest thing you can do.

*I missed the part of the thread where hokierower asked a single technical question about the operation of the cypress. You incorrectly assumed that asking a rhetorical question about purchasing a 1500 dollar safety device and then deliberately not using it was flawed logic shows extreme ignorance.*

Assuming I'm a jackass, well that's just ignorance.

*Not an assumption. You made some very large assumptions about this jumper based on nothing at all. Then ended your post with on a personal note... I think what you meant was for a personal attack. *

On a personal note, at a 112 jumps you can barely wipe your own ass in this sport. Try not to question the experience an wisdom of someone who's been around the block if you value survival. If you don't, hey, ignore and do what you like.

*What wisdom have you shown in this thread? Read the manual (assuming he hasn't) Don't make blanket assumptions (which he didn't) don't ask me to spoon feed you information (which he didn't). Don't question my wisdom, here on the anonymity of the internet I claim to have a lot of jumps and see that your jump profile has a lower number therefore I feel free to put words in your mouth . Hokierower jumpedat san marcos. I jump at san marcos. This thread is near and dear to to us.*


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 2, 2012, 10:56 PM
Post #41 of 152 (1221 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

>Drop zones should not dictate to experienced jumpers what equipment
>they should use.

Our DZ, tyrants that they are, require reserves.

>Yep, I should start looking for an old Cypress unit to slip in the plastic
>pouch on my rig . . .

You could just pack your reserve with some old laundry and save on the cost of a reserve as well. Don't let the man keep you down.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Apr 3, 2012, 2:52 AM
Post #42 of 152 (1198 views)
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Re: [billvon] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Drop zones should not dictate to experienced jumpers what equipment
>they should use.

Our DZ, tyrants that they are, require reserves.

Different argument, Bill. That's an FAR so the DZ has no choice but to require it.


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Apr 3, 2012, 5:40 AM
Post #43 of 152 (1175 views)
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Re: [texascrw] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes. I can't foresee Mark Mark ever making such a rule at Temple. He started skydiving in 1976 so he's been around long before modern AADS


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Apr 3, 2012, 6:40 AM
Post #44 of 152 (1138 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

That might be true, but it's not for the stated reason.

I know (at least) two dropzones run by people who started skydiving in the 70s that require AADs.


-ftp-

Apr 3, 2012, 7:02 AM
Post #45 of 152 (1121 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
. Some day soon, trickery may be necessary to make a jump.

Next up, a fake RSL. That one will be easy.

Whats next? Will you condone pencil packing reserves?

People respect your posts for the most part John, do you really want it in writing that you are suggesting to make a fake AAD?


JohnRich  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 7:56 AM
Post #46 of 152 (1100 views)
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Re: [-ftp-] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
. Some day soon, trickery may be necessary to make a jump.
Next up, a fake RSL. That one will be easy.

Whats next? Will you condone pencil packing reserves?

People respect your posts for the most part John, do you really want it in writing that you are suggesting to make a fake AAD?

I'm not advocating violating FARs. Local business rules are quite another thing. The most a DZ can do for a DZ rule violation is to ban you, which would already be done without the aforesaid mandatory AAD. So there would be no loss for trying.

And since I've posted the fake AAD thing openly, drop zones would be looking for that on my rig. So if a drop zone mandates AAD's, I guess I'll just have to quit jumping there. But the idea might serve others so they don't find themselves out of a place to jump. So by expressing the idea, I'm sacrificing the ability to use it for myself, on behalf of others whom it might serve well.


skydivekc  (D 18629)

Apr 3, 2012, 8:10 AM
Post #47 of 152 (1087 views)
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Re: [Krip] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

We do evaluate jumpers experience levels vs. what wing loading they are at... We don't use a fixed chart or anything at this point. Most jumpers in the midwest are making less than a 100 jumps a year as a weekend warrior... Its pretty easy to see based on logged jumps, weight and wing loading who is a potential problem... As for hook turns they are allowed once Ok'd by DZO or S&TA!! I see we have some old school KAMO guys on here... Nice to see some dinosaurs still active in the sport!!


councilman24  (D 8631)

Apr 3, 2012, 8:15 AM
Post #48 of 152 (1082 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

Its hard to imagine a lawsuit against an AAD manuf. because the rigger didn't put the loop through the cutter and the AAD manuf. didn't design the AAD so that this was detected....

but it's going on right now.


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 8:27 AM
Post #49 of 152 (1072 views)
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Re: [councilman24] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

^this.


And requiring AAD's is not the answer to this, but rather tort reform is.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Apr 3, 2012, 8:28 AM)


councilman24  (D 8631)

Apr 3, 2012, 8:36 AM
Post #50 of 152 (1062 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] AAD requirement @ Skydive San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

No argument. But in the mean time would you choose to protect your financial future?

I don't like it any more than anybody else. But I understand the financial risk, as well as the well meaning desire to keep people from bouncing on your DZ. I've investigated a no pull death without an AAD (on a rental rig no less), had several friends saved by them, and investigated at one death where the already deceased jumper landed under his reserve because of it.

Skydivers used to die hitting the ground without a canopy while still having fun. No they die with a canopy while still having fun. AAD's managed to make the first one rare. New canopies and flying styles have made the second less rare.


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